Celtic Appoint Ronny Deila As New Manager

Sarni said:
To be fair I'd have less of a problem with simple disqualification. A team drawn against Legia in another round would get a bye to the group stages and that's all. For Celtic to benefit from Legia's incompetence is something I have a slight problem with, you cannot lose a tie by 5 goals and remain in the competition.
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well, it's always a dillema no mather how you look at it.
not saying I wouldn't take a free pass to the CL group stages in this case (seeing as Celtic's next opponent is Maribor), but in my eyes nobody should benefit from this. Legia should be punished, but to have another team benefit from their stupidity on top of it is what kind of rubs me the wrong way.
I can't really sit here and act high and mighty about it though, it's a tough one to call this.
In a sense you have to follow the rules, but in this particular case even though it was simply down to their own people's stupidity, it feels like they've been hard done by. It's kind of hard to explain, since the logic behind the rule itself is valid, it's just that this particular case makes it seem unfair due to the insignifigance of the player taking part in the match.
 
OGkush said:
well, it's always a dillema no mather how you look at it.
not saying I wouldn't take a free pass to the CL group stages in this case (seeing as Celtic's next opponent is Maribor), but in my eyes nobody should benefit from this. Legia should be punished, but to have another team benefit from their stupidity on top of it is what kind of rubs me the wrong way.
I can't really sit here and act high and mighty about it though, it's a tough one to call this.
In a sense you have to follow the rules, but in this particular case even though it was simply down to their own people's stupidity, it feels like they've been hard done by. It's kind of hard to explain, since the logic behind the rule itself is valid, it's just that this particular case makes it seem unfair due to the insignifigance of the player taking part in the match.
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Plus the fact that he did sat through 3 games while suspended, the only failed to register him for 2 of them because of the incompetence of 1 person.

Obviously, strictly by rules, the punishment is absolutely fine. Given the circumstances though it does seem very harsh though.
 
Sarni said:
No one has a problem with the fact that forfeit is 3-0. They have a problem that forfeit is being handed out in this particular case because they don't think that the extent of the breaking of rules is sufficient to justify that. Going by strict rules the decision is spot on, I'll say it again, going by fair play and reason it is not and neither is the rule that led to it.
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If their problem is with the forfeit in this case because he didn't play for very long, I'd ask how long a guy should play before it becomes a pisstake of the rules and must, unarguably, result in a forfeit?

Besides, if their problem is with this forfeit in this particular case, why are they bringing up the aggregate score? They obviously feel that they should be given leeway from UEFA because of the score and NOT because they feel the crime doesn't merit the punishment.
 
Pink Moon said:
If their problem is with the forfeit in this case because he didn't play for very long, I'd ask how long a guy should play before it becomes a pisstake of the rules and must, unarguably, result in a forfeit?

Besides, if their problem is with this forfeit in this particular case, why are they bringing up the aggregate score? They obviously feel that they should be given leeway from UEFA because of the score and NOT because they feel the crime doesn't merit the punishment.
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Surely you can consider these cases reasonably without drawing the line at certain amount of minutes player has to play?

For me it'd be fair to punish them for not registering him for St Patricks games and leaving the blank space next to his number empty, accept that they did not do it maliciously but honestly misunderstood the rule. Because that's exactly what they've done wrong here - they haven't deliberately and fully knowingly fielded a suspended player, they simply didn't know because they made an error in previous round.
 
Sarni said:
Surely you can consider these cases reasonably without drawing the line at certain amount of minutes player has to play?

For me it'd be fair to punish them for not registering him for St Patricks games and leaving the blank space next to his number empty, accept that they did not do it maliciously but honestly misunderstood the rule. Because that's exactly what they've done wrong here - they haven't deliberately and fully knowingly fielded a suspended player, they simply didn't know because they made an error in previous round.
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I agree. It's very unfortunate for them and that's where I have sympathy. But like I've said, I don't see how UEFA can take the fact it was an honest mistake into consideration when dishing out the punishment.

The rule doesn't make any mention or make any exceptions for innocent errors/deliberately cheating.
 
Pink Moon said:
I agree. It's very unfortunate for them and that's where I have sympathy. But like I've said, I don't see how UEFA can take the fact it was an honest mistake into consideration when dishing out the punishment.

The rule doesn't make any mention or make any exceptions for innocent errors/deliberately cheating.
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That's where the rule simply goes wrong IMO. Just change 'is' to 'may' and it would be a fair rule.
 
Only heard about this today...Can't believe Celtic didn't even accept the offer of a third game and said they felt offended by Legia's letter.

Despicable, yes they were within their rights to file a complaint but that's some very unsportsmanlike behavior! Disgusted they're milking a mistake like that when they were clearly undeserving of going through. There's no way anyone can claim that the substitution would've had any effect on the outcome of the game. And even then they didn't even deliberately "cheat". I have no connections to Legia at all but this incident only makes me feel a certain way about Celtic.
 
Lyricist said:
Only heard about this today...Can't believe Celtic didn't even accept the offer of a third game and said they felt offended by Legia's letter.

Despicable, yes they were within their rights to file a complaint but that's some very unsportsmanlike behavior! Disgusted they're milking a mistake like that when they were clearly undeserving of going through. There's no way anyone can claim that the substitution would've had any effect on the outcome of the game. And even then they didn't even deliberately "cheat". I have no connections to Legia at all but this incident only makes me feel a certain way about Celtic.
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What offer of a third game? UEFA's rules state that a 3-0 forfeit is the punishment for fielding a suspended player. That puts us through on away goals. I must've missed UEFA not ruling that but instead saying we can have a winner takes all game.

We didn't file the complaint. We've not released any statement saying we were offended by their letter. We've commented once on it and it was a statement saying it's a matter for UEFA and we'll release another when at an appropriate time.

The sub didn't have an outcome on the game. No one can say otherwise. That's totally irrelevant though. A suspended player played in a match he shouldn't have and there's a punishment for that.

Why feel a certain way about Celtic? It's UEFA who people should be directing their anger towards. We've done nothing wrong.

Can I just ask though; where's the integrity in appealing for a standard punishment to be avoided simply because you dislike the consequence?
 
Pink Moon said:
What offer of a third game? UEFA's rules state that a 3-0 forfeit is the punishment for fielding a suspended player. That puts us through on away goals. I must've missed UEFA not ruling that but instead saying we can have a winner takes all game.

We didn't file the complaint. We've not released any statement saying we were offended by their letter. We've commented once on it and it was a statement saying it's a matter for UEFA and we'll release another when at an appropriate time.

The sub didn't have an outcome on the game. No one can say otherwise. That's totally irrelevant though. A suspended player played in a match he shouldn't have and there's a punishment for that.

Why feel a certain way about Celtic? It's UEFA who people should be directing their anger towards. We've done nothing wrong.

Can I just ask though; where's the integrity in appealing for a standard punishment to be avoided simply because you dislike the consequence?
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Clubs appeal all the time, obviously they are going to appeal when they think their punishment is over the top - even if rules say it is fine. There is no harm in appeal and they will highlight an existing obvious issue with UEFA rules very likely causing them to alter it in the future. I don't see how that could possibly go against integrity.

The fact that the extent of offence is irrelevant here is exactly what's wrong with the rule.

BTW it isn't yet cetain whether it was Celtic or UEFA delegate who reported it. Some voices say it was Celtic who notified authorities about the whole situation but were then informed by UEFA delegate that he would take it from there and a protest from them was not needed to go through with procedure. We don't know it though. Celtic definitely had a part in verdict, question is to what extent they influenced it - I think it was a rather small input.
 
Sarni said:
I laid out a comparison that shows how daft it is to punish a club to this extent for such a small error. You wouldn't get a death penalty for bringing that vegetable, you wouldn't get a life sentence for submitting tax declaration too late - that's my point, the punishment here is way beyond reason. No one in this thread has ever said that Legia should not be punished at all, of course they should - not to such extent though. To let a team that just lost 6-1 in the tie back into the competition because your opposition messed up paperwork is silly.

To create a rule that leaves no space to consider circumstances itself does look pretty poor to me. I reckon UEFA will alter that rule slightly in the future so that nothing like this ever happens again because they can clearly feel the outrage of football world right now and they won't want this to repeat.

'Rules are rules' nonsense is becoming tiresome. Obviously there's a rule and I know well that going by the rules Legia are rightly dismissed from the competition. That doesn't change the fact that I can point out blatant flaw with the rule itself, I'd be pointing it out if it knocked Liverpool out because it's clearly there and just because the rule was written that way doesn't mean that I cannot ever question it. Such thinking is middle age at best.
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I understand you're saying that you don't get the death penalty for stealing a car. That's obvious. My question is are Legia getting punished according to the rule they broke? Why should they be exempt from the rule just because they hammered a team? Is the rule treating them severe? Yes it is. However UEFA cannot take into their consideration that he played 90 seconds or 90 minutes. They have to view it that the rule was broken and they have to punish it. The fact that it was 6-1 needs to be forgotten. If it was 1-0 it would be argued those few minutes affected the outcome and it would be a non story really. I do hope they only get fined and Celtic get a settlement but only if that is allowed by the rules governing the situation. We all know its wrong that Celtic are there even though as a team they're inept. But we also all know that Legia got caught breaking this rule. The circumstances are bizarre but they have to be dealt with now
 
IrishRick said:
I understand you're saying that you don't get the death penalty for stealing a car. That's obvious. My question is are Legia getting punished according to the rule they broke? Why should they be exempt from the rule just because they hammered a team? Is the rule treating them severe? Yes it is. However UEFA cannot take into their consideration that he played 90 seconds or 90 minutes. They have to view it that the rule was broken and they have to punish it. The fact that it was 6-1 needs to be forgotten. If it was 1-0 it would be argued those few minutes affected the outcome and it would be a non story really. I do hope they only get fined and Celtic get a settlement but only if that is allowed by the rules governing the situation. We all know its wrong that Celtic are there even though as a team they're inept. But we also all know that Legia got caught breaking this rule. The circumstances are bizarre but they have to be dealt with now
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Fair play, I thought your stance on this was slightly different.
 
Can I just quash the "it's unfair, he only played for a few minutes" claim? It doesn't matter if he didn't even come off the bench. As soon as he was named in the matchday squad the rule was breached. It wasn't breached for only a few minutes. It was breached for the entirety of the match.
 
Pink Moon said:
Can I just quash the "it's unfair, he only played for a few minutes" claim? It doesn't matter if he didn't even come off the bench. As soon as he was named in the matchday squad the rule was breached. It wasn't breached for only a few minutes. It was breached for the entirety of the match.
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True. Which is even more ridiculous.
 
Lyricist said:
Only heard about this today...Can't believe Celtic didn't even accept the offer of a third game and said they felt offended by Legia's letter.

Despicable, yes they were within their rights to file a complaint but that's some very unsportsmanlike behavior! Disgusted they're milking a mistake like that when they were clearly undeserving of going through. There's no way anyone can claim that the substitution would've had any effect on the outcome of the game. And even then they didn't even deliberately "cheat". I have no connections to Legia at all but this incident only makes me feel a certain way about Celtic.
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Whether it's unsporting of Celtic or not the club is listed on the London Stock Exchange, and therefore its Chief Executive, Peter Lawwell, has a fiduciary duty to act in the club's best interests with respect to maximising their revenues. Jeopardising that for the purposes of sportsmanship wouldn't happen at any modern club that's listed and has shareholders.

I wouldn't expect our club to act any differently than Celtic have in this situation. Also, Celtic have expressed their sympathy for Legia Warsaw and the misfortune that they've experienced in being punished for their own mistake, as trivial as it might seem to some people.

Edit - Further, as I posted on the previous page, Polish FA and Legia officials have stated that Celtic behaved in a courteous and respectful manner before, during and after their heavy aggregate defeats. The issues they have with Celtic only transpired when Celtic didn't meekly relent and act against their own best interests.
 
Their appeal has been heard today and UEFA will announce their verdict later today or tomorrow. At the foundation of Legia's appeal was the fact that under current rules UEFA were not obligated to hand out a walkover because another rule says that in special cases they can suspend or change punishment if it is seen as fit to the situation. Another point of their appeal emphasises the fact that under one rule you have to register a player for him to serve suspension but under another you may only register players who can participate in football games for qualifying round - obviously it's far fetched because it considers wording of certain articles but it's better than nothing and if they can prove that contradiction in court they will have a leg to stand on.

I don't expect UEFA to overturn their decision, CAS could be a better hope for Legia but even they don't have the power to overrule UEFA I think. Good that Legia have found that it wasn't absolutely inevitable for them to be effectively dismissed from the competition in spite of the obvious offense, they could defend it somehow although I wouldn't give them more than a 1% chance.
 
Lyricist said:
Only heard about this today...Can't believe Celtic didn't even accept the offer of a third game and said they felt offended by Legia's letter.

Despicable, yes they were within their rights to file a complaint but that's some very unsportsmanlike behavior! Disgusted they're milking a mistake like that when they were clearly undeserving of going through. There's no way anyone can claim that the substitution would've had any effect on the outcome of the game. And even then they didn't even deliberately "cheat". I have no connections to Legia at all but this incident only makes me feel a certain way about Celtic.
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Thing is the punishment for fielding a suspended player at all levels of the game is that the game is forfeit and the offending team are given a 3-0 loss. This is a rule that Legia signed up for along with Celtic and every other team playing football. Why should Celtic have to do anything in this situation. The fault lies with Legia.
 
I propose that anyone who spouts 'the rules are the rules' response and espouses the 'letter of the law' position on this issue loses all ability to question the Rio Ferdinand 9 month non-drug test suspension, or Rooney's suspension for the heinous crime of "swearing" in the heat of a title race or Darren Fletcher's ridiculous suspension from the 2009 CL final due to a blown call in the semi ... or any further FA or UEFA f*ckery that United will undoubtedly be subject to in the (near) future.

And for the poster who brought up the Henry handball, I do see this type of sanctioning body imposition of justice as different than a blown call in a game which instant replay should have been able to clear up... I'm still not sure what the correct response to that example really should have been.

Some times doing the right thing supersedes the rules.
 
204Red said:
I propose that anyone who spouts 'the rules are the rules' response and espouses the 'letter of the law' position on this issue loses all ability to question the Rio Ferdinand 9 month non-drug test suspension, or Rooney's suspension for the heinous crime of "swearing" in the heat of a title race or Darren Fletcher's ridiculous suspension from the 2009 CL final due to a blown call in the semi ... or any further FA or UEFA f*ckery that United will undoubtedly be subject to in the (near) future.

And for the poster who brought up the Henry handball, I do see this type of sanctioning body imposition of justice as different than a blown call in a game which instant replay should have been able to clear up... I'm still not sure what the correct response to that example really should have been.

Some times doing the right thing supersedes the rules.
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I brought up the Henry handball point to say how embarrassing this is becoming from Legia's point of view. They shagged their chances and broke the rules. Had they profited from this I doubt they would give a shit but they are victims here. They are writing open letters and imploring that the right thing be done. The right thing was registering their players correctly and this wouldn't be an issue.
 
Stick said:
Why though? Legia fielded a suspended player.
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The fact that the ban would stand even if he hadn't played is ridiculous. I don't see how it can be questioned, if you're on the bench and don't come on how do you even influence the game?
 
204Red said:
I propose that anyone who spouts 'the rules are the rules' response and espouses the 'letter of the law' position on this issue loses all ability to question the Rio Ferdinand 9 month non-drug test suspension, or Rooney's suspension for the heinous crime of "swearing" in the heat of a title race or Darren Fletcher's ridiculous suspension from the 2009 CL final due to a blown call in the semi ... or any further FA or UEFA f*ckery that United will undoubtedly be subject to in the (near) future.

And for the poster who brought up the Henry handball, I do see this type of sanctioning body imposition of justice as different than a blown call in a game which instant replay should have been able to clear up... I'm still not sure what the correct response to that example really should have been.

Some times doing the right thing supersedes the rules.
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Rules were somehow not rules and could have been questioned when it turned out that we could not appeal back then. I remember a general outrage at how insane it was, I wonder if people who are in the 'rules are rules' camp now were equally firm on that then.
 
Sarni said:
The fact that the ban would stand even if he hadn't played is ridiculous. I don't see how it can be questioned, if you're on the bench and don't come on how do you even influence the game?
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Why would you name a suspended player on your bench though unless you didnt know he was suspended and if you don't then you don't have your house in order. Here I'm not arguing it wasn't unfortunate that Legia went out because of this but they screwed themselves and it's just pointless that they are looking for the moral thing to be done here in the same way that Ireland did with France and Henry.
 
Stick said:
I brought up the Henry handball point to say how embarrassing this is becoming from Legia's point of view. They shagged their chances and broke the rules. Had they profited from this I doubt they would give a shit but they are victims here. They are writing open letters and imploring that the right thing be done. The right thing was registering their players correctly and this wouldn't be an issue.
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Obviously they are going to appeal and feel hard done by it, who wouldn't? Even if going strictly by the rules they may have got correct punishment there is no harm in appealing and tring to point out that UEFA did't have to hand out a walkover and that it isn't fair for Celtic to go through having lost the tie 6-1.

Ireland drew the game. They were not even ahead in the tie when France scored and had the chance to settle that particular game on the pitch, referee errors happen often enough to let them slide because otherwise you'd be getting into a huge mess.
 
Stick said:
Why would you name a suspended player on your bench though unless you didnt know he was suspended and if you don't then you don't have your house in order. Here I'm not arguing it wasn't unfortunate that Legia went out because of this but they screwed themselves and it's just pointless that they are looking for the moral thing to be done here in the same way that Ireland did with France and Henry.
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Of course they are the main party responsible here. Still doesn't mean we cannot discuss the extent of the punishment in relation to the offence and think that it is very excessive. What they basically did there was a paperwork error in the round prior to the Celtic tie, for that to influence the outcome of a tie that was so clearly one-sided is wrong IMO.

As I have already said too, I'd probably have less of a problem if they'd been simply disqualified from Europe for the season for breaking the rules. Celtic should not be going through because they have not merited that with their performances at all.
 
Sarni said:
Obviously they are going to appeal and feel hard done by it, who wouldn't? Even if going strictly by the rules they may have got correct punishment there is no harm in appealing and tring to point out that UEFA did't have to hand out a walkover and that it isn't fair for Celtic to go through having lost the tie 6-1.

Ireland drew the game. They were not even ahead in the tie when France scored and had the chance to settle that particular game on the pitch, referee errors happen often enough to let them slide because otherwise you'd be getting into a huge mess.
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The moment legia named a suspended player in their squad they forfeited the game. Can you not accept that?
 
Stick said:
The moment legia named a suspended player in their squad they forfeited the game. Can you not accept that?
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No, I cannot, because the rule does not leave any room for consideration of circumstances. They fielded suspended player because they thought he was not suspended anymore. Turns out he was because they had to register him for previous round. He did miss 3 games he was supposed to miss only they made a paperwork error in the previous round. They made a huge mess out of it but it was a honest mistake which did not defy fair play rules at all and football should be the most important part of football, not paperwork. The fact that it absolutely did not influence the tie is another matter. If he were banned in the previous game and they knew it well, I would not be defending them at all.

Did you agree with Fletcher's suspension in 2009?
 
Sarni said:
Of course they are the main party responsible here. Still doesn't mean we cannot discuss the extent of the punishment in relation to the offence and think that it is very excessive. What they basically did there was a paperwork error in the round prior to the Celtic tie, for that to influence the outcome of a tie that was so clearly one-sided is wrong IMO.

As I have already said too, I'd probably have less of a problem if they'd been simply disqualified from Europe for the season for breaking the rules. Celtic should not be going through because they have not merited that with their performances at all.
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The extent of the punishment is that you forfeit a game where you name a suspended player in your squad. Now that's the case across all levels of football and it's accepted by all teams. A forfeit game has a scoreline of 3-0 which happened to be the scoreline Celtic needed to progress. I don't think it's unfair but it was just a balls up by Legia.
 
Stick said:
The extent of the punishment is that you forfeit a game where you name a suspended player in your squad. Now that's the case across all levels of football and it's accepted by all teams. A forfeit game has a scoreline of 3-0 which happened to be the scoreline Celtic needed to progress. I don't think it's unfair but it was just a balls up by Legia.
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Did you agree with Rio's 8-month ban and Fletcher's suspension for 2009 CL final?
 
So as long as UEFA have something firmly in their rules it is fair? If they come up with a rule that you need to have an even number of fire extinguishers which has to be higher than 50 and lower than 165 at your stadium for a football game and a club has 55 of them it is completely fair to murder all members of the club because it is in the rules and they can never ever be discussed with?
 
Sarni said:
No, I cannot, because the rule does not leave any room for consideration of circumstances. They fielded suspended player because they thought he was not suspended anymore. Turns out he was because they had to register him for previous round. He did miss 3 games he was supposed to miss only they made a paperwork error in the previous round. The fact that it absolutely did not influence the tie is another matter.

Did you agree with Fletcher's suspension in 2009?
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But rules don't leave room for consideration. They are strict. They need to be.
 
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