Excellent post mate.
Alex Salmond and Independence
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Excellent post mate.
Well I'm northern and i would say we are different culturally to southerners, but that's a country and all big countries will be culturally different, so saying Scotland is different to England is like linking all England as culturally the same when we are not, just as Scotland aren't, you only have to go to a Celtic and Rangers game to see Scotland is culturally and socially divided even more so than England and most country's for that matter.
I must admit as English person, no one speaks about Scottish independence other than for a few seconds while reading the paper or something, because no one really cares about it if I'm being honest. It doesn't really effect us, Scotland leaving the UK wouldn't be a financial kick in the balls and our life's wouldn't change that much, if anything we'd probably be better off from the things I've read.
Can the same be said for Scotland? Would Scotland be better off? There's a lot of doubt without the security of the UK for Scotland and is that a risk worth taking? As i said yesterday though, if it all goes tits up, concerns for me as an Englishman is you are still right on our doorstep and that can't change no matter what.
Half your country would have wanted to remain in the UK, that probably won't change and you might get a few more who did vote 'yes' changing their mind after a few years of misery and there's potential for violence if it all turns to shit and unhappy Scots would only go in one direction if it does (ours), running into our backyard where you are no longer invited like its our problem.
I agree flying the Scottish flag everywhere around Westminister and Downing Street is just cringe and the only reason why they are fighting like they are for Scotland to stay in the UK is for their own necks really, Cameron doesn't want be the 'pm who lost Britain' and neither does his cronies and Ed Milband doesn't want to potentially lead a Britain without Scotland.
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Surprised it's taken this long to get to this point, tbh. At least it's being done peacefully I suppose.
The Irish took up the fight and got most of the country back but it was a long old haul to get there.
I would have thought the Irish and Scots would be most similar, out of all the people in the British Isles, but when I think of independence I feel that the Irish must be a lot different than the Scots who, imo, haven't done much of anything in the past to achieve theirs. Were they bought off by the money and power? Was it that simple?
The Irish took up the fight and got most of the country back but it was a long old haul to get there.
I would have thought the Irish and Scots would be most similar, out of all the people in the British Isles, but when I think of independence I feel that the Irish must be a lot different than the Scots who, imo, haven't done much of anything in the past to achieve theirs. Were they bought off by the money and power? Was it that simple?
I can't believe this desperate, final push from the Better Together camp is taking north The Queen*, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. Surely the very, very small proportion of Scots who respect the opinions of those twats were already as guaranteed 'no voters' as it gets.
* Actually, Queenie's staying silent on this one. Apparently she spoke out for the Union in '77 though.
Anyone know of any Nate Silver style analysts looking at the latest polls?
Fair play to her for not getting involved in politics, although the royals might have realised that a plea from them would've come across as desperate and a bit patronising.
I can think of few things I'd want to hear less than the royals telling me what to do. Aren't most of the nationalists republicans anyway? Has that been part of the debate at all?
Ireland kept it's cultural identity a lot more than Scotland. The only plantation which succeeded was in Ulster.So the majority of the population was native Celtic, stayed Catholic and suffered massive persecution under the penal law, and endured Famine, Cromwell, you name it. A lot of these were reminders enough when rebellion began.
Exactly.
Sorry, a bit rusty on Scottish history. I must have listened to too many Scottish people over the years babbling on about the Sasenach (sp?) and all of that. I had thought that they were forced into it.
So, should they vote No, the next time I hear anything like that I can say "shut the feck up and do what London tells you!". I might even get away without a smashed up face
So, should they vote No, the next time I hear anything like that I can say "shut the feck up and do what London tells you!". I might even get away without a smashed up face
That's true. I'd say most Yes voters (not all Yes are inherently nationalists, remember) would be more in favour of a Republic. The queen staying as head of state is something we'd rather not have if we voted Yes, but most of us can have the view that a referendum on whether she's head of state down the line would be likely, whereas it'd never happen if we were part of the UK. So it's an annoyance, but not a major one since she won't impact decisions at all and will just be a figurehead.
What would happen to Balmoral? Presumably they'd get to hold on to the property.
Don't see any reason why they wouldn't hold onto it.
I suppose.
There are still a couple of Earls with their holdings in Ireland after all.
There are still a couple of Earls with their holdings in Ireland after all.
If they took it off the royals that would set a precedent for taking property off foreign owners, cue property market crash as foreign investors pull out. Or just say you're doing it only to the royals, which I'd wholly support.
Things are serious if they've cancelled Prime Ministers Question Time . Mainly to save their jobs and secondly to save the Union.
Still can't believe that 50% of Scots are giving up on 300 years of joint British identity, innovation, struggle and triumph. Our people thought, fought, died, and dominated the world together(admittedly, this is nationalistic claptrap), and 50% would give it up over the bloody Conservatives being in power for a few years and Saint Salmond's bollocks about how much easier you'll have it without an internationally relevant economic, military (by comparison) and financial powerhouse backing you up. Two of our last three PM's have been Scottish for fecks sake. I also can't believe the narrative that's been spun about Westminster not representing Scotland. Well shit, you're living in a democracy, your preferred party isn't going to be in power at all times. Insanity.
Also: What a fantastic way to ensure Scottish voices remain forever irrelevant in international affairs. You'll be less internationally relevant than Minnesota.
Also: What a fantastic way to ensure Scottish voices remain forever irrelevant in international affairs. You'll be less internationally relevant than Minnesota.
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The English (not all of them, admittedly) regularly moan about how we're leeches etc yet as soon as it looks like we may break away they're fecking desperate to keep us. Why is that? You cannot tell me it's simply because of utter nonsense such as "traditions" and "fighting together".
I'm still undecided but the No campaign is an embarrassment and so amateurish that I'm unsurprised at the swing in votes and momentum being with Yes. I don't know anyone who was Yes but now voting No. I know lots of people who were either no or undecided and are now Yes.
As for being relevant in international affairs? I couldn't care less. All I care about is what's best for my country going forward. Less relevant than Minnesota in international affairs? Who gives a...
I'm still undecided but the No campaign is an embarrassment and so amateurish that I'm unsurprised at the swing in votes and momentum being with Yes. I don't know anyone who was Yes but now voting No. I know lots of people who were either no or undecided and are now Yes.
As for being relevant in international affairs? I couldn't care less. All I care about is what's best for my country going forward. Less relevant than Minnesota in international affairs? Who gives a...
I think really most of us don't care that much if Scotland stays or goes despite the politicians wanting to keep Scotland, most people I talk to just want to make sure if Scotland goes they go properly and don't look to rely on the rest of the UK and do it properly on their own.
You might give a ..... when the Scottish people wish they could influence international politics, but find they have no voice, no relevance and no ability whatsoever to project hard or soft power. But who cares. It's not like international affairs have ever been important, eh?
But we only want to have some sort of small voice, as opposed to largely being irrelevant within the UK. We have 6 EU seats at the moment, for example. There are much smaller countries that have the same amount.
Scotland doesn't want to be a superpower who's influencing global politics to the level of the US or the UK. We just want to be a successful, safe, thriving country who can use our own resources for our own benefits, instead of having it squandered by Westminster on wars and weapons. That's fairly simplified admittedly, but your post massively misunderstands the aims of many Scots, and what we'd like to see from this.
This, though I don't think the yes campaign is on that page.
Funny.
If they gain their independence they'll have their own place at the table, not virtually anonymous under some one else's flag.
Problem for this (which you admit partly) is that it's all based on the past. The nationalistic equivalent would be me saying Scotland should vote Yes because of the Scottish wars of independence, or because of Bruce or Wallace. It's irrelevant to the current argument, not to mention the atrocities that Britain was involved in during their period of world domination.
Again, what annoys me most is the assertion that all Scots are brainless idiots who believe anything Salmond says and aren't engaged in this. There are many non-SNP independence supporters, who all believe that independence is better for Scotland as we'll get the government that we elect.
On the representation point, we view Scotland as a country within the union. As a country, not getting the governments we vote for, and not really having all that much of an influence on the government that gets in even when it's the one we did vote for, isn't a good thing. The inherent problem with the union in that sense is that it's completely and utterly dominated by England population wise.
What, at the EU? I'm sure the Spanish will be delighted. I'm sure the Scottish people will be better internationally represented by their representative to the UN than by the UK, which might I remind you has had 2 Scottish PM's very recently and a seat on the UNSC. Virtually anonymous, my arse.
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Exactly. As I've said, we've got 6 MEP's when there are much, much smaller countries the same size with similar representation. You don't hear the successful Scandinavian countries bemoaning their lack of influence on the world stage.
Simply having a Scottish PM doesn't mean that Scotland itself is well represented. Especially when one of them (Gordon Brown) is suddenly going on about how getting more powers for Scotland is crucial when he could've easily introduced them while he was the PM, yet he did nothing about it.
No, but they've never had any and never expect any. Scotland has had international influence as a core member of the UK for the last 300 years. It'll be quite the transition and require a significant change in attitude to foreign affairs from the bottom to the top. In any case, if Scotland does democratically choose to go it alone I'll wish you all the best. I just think that you've been undersold the benefits of the UK by a fairly useless No campaign and oversold the benefits without a close examination of the risks of an IScotland.
There's no guarantee you'll get into the EU any time soon, and you certainly wouldn't get in automatically. That, plus the lack of a currency union should be enough to worry yes voters. But I'm sure everything will be ok, uncertain plans and flimsy promises usually work out well in the economic and political arena.
Queen will need a passport to go there.
I keep reading this, usually with some comment that accepting Scotland would upset the Spanish because of the Catalans. Never a mention of what the Catalans might think of that though.
Ok, the EU accepted the Czech republic when it split from Czechoslovakia, and Slovakia too for good measure. They accepted the Baltic states when they split from the Soviet Union, and they accepted Croatia and Slovenia when they split from Yugoslavia. Given Scotland's geographic position both Nato and the EU will fall over themselves to invite them in.
Will Fletcher need to get a work permit, not being from an EU state?
Workable democratic states splitting from failed states is a rather different scenario than an internal separatist movement attaining independence from a generally successful, free(ish) and fair(ish) state. The EU can fall over itself as much as it wants but if the Spanish don't want it Scotland isn't getting in, until Spain get their pound of flesh at least.
What happens to the the Scots who live in other parts of the UK, and the English/Welsh/Northern Irish folks who live in Scotland?
In the event that the Yes vote carries, you would hope that the process of seperation is carefully carried out instead of a quick sever, with all it's complications. Maybe it's Salmond... I can't take him serious.
In the event that the Yes vote carries, you would hope that the process of seperation is carefully carried out instead of a quick sever, with all it's complications. Maybe it's Salmond... I can't take him serious.
Would the Scots in England have it much different than the Irish have it? I doubt it. It's not like they'd have to apply to move/stay in England, or Wales. And vice versa. Anyone saying otherwise would be just using scare tactics.
I was thinking of the UN when I wrote about having their own say.
Anyway, at the end of the day if they do/don't vote Yes then no skin off my nose.
It is kinda amusing to see how desperate the No vote block is getting though.
Anyway, at the end of the day if they do/don't vote Yes then no skin off my nose.
It is kinda amusing to see how desperate the No vote block is getting though.
Ah come on, not that. This movement for Home Rule and then Independence gained traction through Thatcherism which not only led to a decade of democratic deficit but also transformed the Labour Party into a 'modernising' (increasingly capitalist) party, drifting away from the Scottish electorate which had firmly rejected Thatcherism. The country has since been left with no choice in a two party system but to vote for one of two parties which don't represent them. There is no preferred party, the writings on the wall and that's why Westminster politics is so unpopular all around the UK and it's why Scotland has been so engaged in politics now that there is the prospect of something different. That's been 35 years of it with no end in sight it's not 2 terms in office. God forbid we use our democratic right to change this state of affairs.
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For those of us thinking that the yes campaign would have no effect on the remain Uk, just note the effect the uncertainty has had on the pound sterling. We are likely to see this replicated until such time that all major firm have moved and monetary union has been rejected/finalised... I actually hope action is taken quickly so that the remaining union can continue it's recovery.
Just like in a divorce, we need to see who gets the house, who gets the dog etc... Scottish workers have contributed to the national insurance and pension pot, they are entitled to benefit, and Scottish people and business have contributed to the deficit, so will the slate be wiped clean, or are we going to provide credit to a newly independent nation with no fiscal policy and mechanism, and no ability to secure it's debt. What would that do to the uk credit rating.... This will have a bigger impact than we are advise.
Just like in a divorce, we need to see who gets the house, who gets the dog etc... Scottish workers have contributed to the national insurance and pension pot, they are entitled to benefit, and Scottish people and business have contributed to the deficit, so will the slate be wiped clean, or are we going to provide credit to a newly independent nation with no fiscal policy and mechanism, and no ability to secure it's debt. What would that do to the uk credit rating.... This will have a bigger impact than we are advise.
Rather different indeed. A new state virtually guaranteed to be politically stable, with advanced systems of justice and democracy, and financially solvent to boot. The EU would put up no hoops for them to jump though at all.
If Spain did try and block access how do you think the Catalans would react? 'Oh fair enough, we're fecked'? People don't think that way when provoked, they would flock to the independence movement. However Spain is so economically dependent on the EU they will do nothing to upset it anyway.
What happens if I go to university in Scotland, starting from next year?