Just look at the graph there. We've had an incredibly minimal effect on a large number of elections over the years.
Alex Salmond and Independence
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Just look at the graph there. We've had an incredibly minimal effect on a large number of elections over the years.
But that's mostly because there used to be a large group of Scots who would vote Conservative - without that, and with election results getting closer and closer, the Scottish vote will likely have a much more significant effect in the next few elections.
Also, another poll:
Arguably, although it could also be said that there's a large contingent of people out there who only vote Labour because they don't want the Tories in power. If you look at it like that, we really don't have much of a choice.
Surely the principle alone is enough so that even if Scotland only had a handful of MPs and voted exactly the same way the rest of the UK did, we should not play a role in electing the government that then must negotiate the best possible terms for the rUK. In the same way that our population has begun to value hugely the chance for a direct and proportional democracy it should be possible for the English too and would hopefully lead to the formation of an English parliament. Starting off the new relationship being governed by Scottish MPs that they didn't elect would not exactly help further the democratic revolution that so many are championing here just now.
Oh yeah, I'd definitely agree that we shouldn't be involved in the 2015 election if we vote Yes. I was commenting on the more general idea that we have a major say in elections, when we generally don't.
Historically not, in 2015 the influence would be pretty big though due to the current state of the parties. Labour and Tories can currently get equal amounts in the popular vote but Labour win about 60 more seats and control the next government. Without Scotland that obviously doesn't happen.
Yeah, there's Scottish people who've lost limbs and even lives fighting for Britain in Afghanistan. A war we should never have entered. Hardly a compelling argument for staying with the UK for their next invasion of a country.
A lot of people are tired of being run by a government we don't vote for.
If there is votes being made purely on a hatred for the English it's probably borne out of the ignorance displayed by claiming we're brainwashed by fecking Braveheart.
England should have not entered but as Britain, we did just as Scotland did.
The area in England I'm from the majority voted labour, so the region i live are being run by a government we didn't for, it's how it is.
If Scotland does go independent maybe you can start looking in the mirror and not blame England for all the pain and misery in the world, or maybe you'll realise just how good you had it.
That's how democracy works. If you leave the UK it will be a decision that half your population actively opposed.
What? Why would that happen
Hopefully, If Scotland votes yes, The UK will never have another Scottish PM that commits us to "wars we should never have entered"
Fantastic poll on the Guardian website today;
The first comment from someone is simply;
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/poll/2014/sep/08/new-royal-baby-save-union-scotland
The first comment from someone is simply;
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/poll/2014/sep/08/new-royal-baby-save-union-scotland
I am not British but I did worked in London for some time. As a foreigner I feel that the biggest problem in Britain at the moment is that a valid argument is portrayed and tackled in the worst way ever.
Take the immigration problem. Yes freedom of movement should be tweaked in such a way that those who abuse of the hospitality given to them are deported and terrorists should be kicked out of the nation never to return. If Britain had placed the argument in that way then I am pretty positive that many would agree with them (at least my country would or else we kick their butt out of the parliament). In fact Germany are considering implementing measures of that kind and no one is complaining. However one shouldn't put everyone in the same basket and portray all the EU workers as some kind of monsters. Its really not the case.
Same thing about this case. Scotland should negotiate with England about how to make things work. Threatening to leave the UK is stupid and will only weaken them both.
There's a good and bad way of doing things. It seem that politicians tend to choose the bad way all the time.
Take the immigration problem. Yes freedom of movement should be tweaked in such a way that those who abuse of the hospitality given to them are deported and terrorists should be kicked out of the nation never to return. If Britain had placed the argument in that way then I am pretty positive that many would agree with them (at least my country would or else we kick their butt out of the parliament). In fact Germany are considering implementing measures of that kind and no one is complaining. However one shouldn't put everyone in the same basket and portray all the EU workers as some kind of monsters. Its really not the case.
Same thing about this case. Scotland should negotiate with England about how to make things work. Threatening to leave the UK is stupid and will only weaken them both.
There's a good and bad way of doing things. It seem that politicians tend to choose the bad way all the time.
Freedom of movement is great in principal, i love the idea i can go/move anywhere i want within the EU no questions asked. The trouble is though, everyone wants to come here and Britain is a small island that is cramped up already, so in a country where it's difficult to get on the property ladder and difficult to find jobs, there has to be some kind of limit and i believe British citizens should always come first IN BRITAIN on jobs/housing/health and government support, if not what are the benefits in being a British citizen?
I can name many advantages being in being a citizen of another particular country, America for example, but i don't know what advantages i have being a British citizen over immigrants just coming into the country, in many ways i have less.
Malta is much smaller and the majority of our expats are actually British. We also happen to be the second most overpopulated country in the world. No one is complaining about British people taking our jobs or anything. You compete for a job like anybody else. I can move to Britain as much as British citizens can move to Malta. Its that simple and equally fair.
Also this 'everyone wants to come to Britain' mentality is a bit insular to be honest. There's plenty of countries who offer a good standard of living and great job opportunities even within the EU. Also its not as if all British are staying in Britain. There's around 2 million British people living in other EU nations, the EU also support 4.2m jobs in the UK. Can you imagine if all of them are sent back to Britain?
I agree that the EU needs to tone down a bit and stop giving EU memberships to country with a weak financial economy. I also believe that we need to get tougher in terms of NON EU immigration especially in terms of illegal immigration. A substantial number of countries have record unemployment rates so in general terms we really don't need to import more workers from outside the EU. However getting out of the EU is not really an answer. A small country like England can't live in isolation and I fear that if England leaves the EU then many foreign companies who made England their hub because of that will just move elsewhere, possibly to Scotland if the country gets independence and manage to fast track back its application to the EU.
As said there's a good way of doing things and a bad way. England should work hard to increase its presence and importance within the EU. It should also insist on cutting down the abuse and also promote incentives to make all the EU nations financial stable so that less immigrants will need to move country.
Honestly I cant imagine a European group without (in my opinion) its most important nation. I also can't imagine how England can ever survive in isolation with the entire continent hostile to it especially if Scotland ends up an EU member too (let us not forget that even Ireland is in the EU too). Even the US whose a historic England ally is against such idea. I honestly hope that it never comes to that.
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Well 54 million people, England is not really small. I don't want Britain to leave the EU and i don't want Scotland to leave Britain, but i think if Britain ever left the EU, one thing i wouldn't fear is isolation, we have a place called London, which is basically the capital of Europe and i wouldn't see that changing should the UK no longer be in the EU and leaving the EU wouldn't prevent us trading with other EU members states.
I believe France have said recently should Britain leave the EU they would still want a close relationship with Britain, we could also have increased trade to the USA/Asia.
But as said I'm very pro-European and pro-freedom of movement (for the most part), even if we left the EU, shut our boarders, globalization is unavoidable in this day and age and something no government can fully restrain.
I believe France have said recently should Britain leave the EU they would still want a close relationship with Britain, we could also have increased trade to the USA/Asia.
But as said I'm very pro-European and pro-freedom of movement (for the most part), even if we left the EU, shut our boarders, globalization is unavoidable in this day and age and something no government can fully restrain.
London is the center of Europe because England is part of EU (the group that the vast majority of European nations have to be part of). Scrap that fact and I am afraid it would be little more than what Rome was when the Roman empire fell or Babylon was when the Persian empire fell.
I honestly don't want England to leave the EU. The Brits have been central in Europe's history and were the first to oppose the ambitions of at least 3 dictators (Napoleon, the Kaiser and Hitler). Irrespective of Britian's financial power, its a shame to lose such nation from the group and every effort is to be made so that differences are reconciled.
I hope that Britain will fight for a more prominent role in Europe as it had always done in the past and help shape Europe in a better continent for everyone. Fleeing is not the answer
Are they showing Braveheart on Scottish TV yet? They should show that on the nights right up to the vote...
Seriously though, there's a real chance to know if the Scots are all mouth, no trousers - or will they finally decide to take their country back.
Seriously though, there's a real chance to know if the Scots are all mouth, no trousers - or will they finally decide to take their country back.
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If I was Scottish I'd be voting Yes.
If they do vote for Independence is that the end for Cameron? The PM who lost Scotland.
If they do vote for Independence is that the end for Cameron? The PM who lost Scotland.
The Conservative and Unionist Party PM who lost Scotland, if we're being precise. He'd face a lot of calls to resign at the very least.
I honestly think that the Scots will be making a terrible mistake if they leave the UK.
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Who would take over though, tea-boy Nick Clegg? Simpleton Ed Miliband?
Unfortunately we are probably stuck Cameron and the Tories for another 4 years, there's no one strong enough to challenge him like a young Tony Blair, I think David Miliband would have made a better leader of the opposition and potential prime minister.
Unfortunately we are probably stuck Cameron and the Tories for another 4 years, there's no one strong enough to challenge him like a young Tony Blair, I think David Miliband would have made a better leader of the opposition and potential prime minister.
@devilish
Some very eccentric posts there.
Why would other European nations be 'hostile' to Britain if it left the EU. Are they hostile to Switzerland?
London's status as a world financial center dates from the days of the British Empire. It's certainly not a consequence of EU membership.
Britain's importance in Europe is more or less proportional to the size of its economy. It's got little to do with being one voice out of 28 in the EU's sclerotic decision making mechanisms. Within or outside the EU, Britain will continue to play a significant role in European and World affairs.
Some very eccentric posts there.
Why would other European nations be 'hostile' to Britain if it left the EU. Are they hostile to Switzerland?
London's status as a world financial center dates from the days of the British Empire. It's certainly not a consequence of EU membership.
Britain's importance in Europe is more or less proportional to the size of its economy. It's got little to do with being one voice out of 28 in the EU's sclerotic decision making mechanisms. Within or outside the EU, Britain will continue to play a significant role in European and World affairs.
It's funny you're talking about our hatred of England yet you're displaying your own bitterness towards us here.
The area you're from isn't quite the same as a country like Scotland. We've got our own government, your county doesn't.
Yes but it'd also be a decision that half would have voted for. About 99% of Scotland votes against the Tories yet we get them. It's not quite the same.
Don't think the torries will win the next election outright(Hopfully they won't) but agree it's looking really grim .
No wonder Scotland wants to leave.
Looks like the momentum is with the pro-independents. If the Scots want to become a small fringe outfit, like Celtic and Rangers have done, good luck to them. It would be ironic that northern Ireland, which was settled by many Scots, would still be in the UK.
I don't see why this is bad thing though, presuming that's how you mean it. Being a smaller, fringe outfit means we can go about our own business without getting drawn into wars we don't want to involve ourselves in, which the larger, more military leaning countries are almost always in.
I hate the "that's how it is" argument.
That's exactly the problem. "That's how it is", and that's what we want to change. There's a difference between an area of one country not getting the government they voted for, and a country of a union getting one they overwhelming did not vote for.
Biterness? What am i bitter about? I was just responding to your ridiculous comment in that everything is England's fault (Scottish involvement in the War on Terror etc) and once again you are having little digs at England, which tells me you clearly have an agenda towards England and this is what i was talking about on the last page in that there will be a large number of Scots only voting 'yes' due this agenda/hatered towards England more so than whats really best for Scotland.
Doing a quick Google search, Scotland have 59 MP's in Westminster and the last PM before Cameron was Scottish, whatever decisions BRITAIN made Scottish MP's have more than contributed to those decisions.
Spot on.
I didn't say it was England's fault. I just said wars we shouldn't be in are hardly a compelling argument to remain in the UK. Nostalgia of your limbs getting blown off isn't going to cut it.
How many are Tories?
Edit: There probably will be a large number of Scots voting Yes for the wrong reasons but it's offset by the number voting No for the wrong reasons too. By that I'm referring to the pathetic nature of a lot of Old Firm fans who are voting based on football and religion.
a) Switzerland has never been in the EU. Britain is leaving the EU. Don't you think that they wouldn't like that?
b) Once again, it was the center of something much bigger (the British empire or the EU)
c) I hope you are right. However I much doubt it to be honest. Every effort is being made to make the EU more of a federal state and if England leaves, then no one will stand against that path. With England being crushed between two superpowers (US on the left and the EU on the right) I am afraid that England may lose relevance both from a political and economical level especially if cracks start showing up in the Great Britain union (Scotland leaving and joining the EU etc). Honestly I wish that such thing would never happen. I am not really comfortable with a German dominating Europe to be honest.
How do you think America goes on then, 50 states, each the size of a country, majority bigger than Scotland all don't get the president they voted. Other than Texas, you don't get them wanting independence from the United States - As someone else pointed out above, it's how a democracy works.
What i find ironic is Scotland is its own nation now, just as England is, yet what Salmond wants is to leave the British Union but is quite happy to join another in the European Union and let all Scotlands decisions be made from Brussels rather than Westminster, also Salmond wants to share the UK pound/have security of UK's defense and a few other things but not contribute anything towards this.
To me it seems like Salmond has his own agenda towards Westminister and as managed to somehow con the Scottish people into having this referendum, voting on a 'false' independence you think you are going to have.
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Why not?
First of all because I disagree with one nation controlling the entire Europe. Whenever anyone tried to do that, it brought war and misery to the entire continent (the Roman Empire, WW1, WW2, Napoleon)
Secondly because I love the diversity in Europe and would love it that it remained. Third but not least a one size fits all is not the right way to conduct things.
It may not be a bad thing, just different. If you want to join a start-up, then fair enough. There would be a lot of uncertainty in the short and middle term, so the Sots would have a tough few years I think. Small countries are always at risk of being bullied by the big boys, so they would be assuming some extra risks.