Rafael vs Valencia Rightback Debate

Pogue Mahone said:
Beggars belief that anyone can single out Valencia as the main culprit in that goal. As that still illustrates perfectly, the issue here is that someone in midfield has let Silva get a run on them (Mata? Hererra? Can't tell who from that image) and it's his run from deep that ultimately cuts us open.

Smalling and Valencia's priority was preventing Milner and Clichy from getting to the byline and/or getting a cross in. Really not much they could have done to prevent such a clever little pass and unmarked run more centrally.

Anyway, it was a superb bit of football from City. Would have unlocked most teams. It's only because of the tedious fecking ongoing witch-hunt of Valencia at fullback that a goal of real quality like that could end up with all this scape-goating.
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There is no witch-hunt Pogue. I don't understand why you think that when you criticize a player for a performance, it is an observation while anyone disagreeing with your view of a performance is biased. You do understand the concept of differing views? Also, having seen that goal again multiple times, if you think Valencia was trying to prevent Clichy from going to the byline he was doing a piss poor job of it because he was 10 feet away from him. When he was trying to "cover" for Smalling, he left him exposed 1 on 2 with both Milner and Clichy which ended up Milner receiving the ball from Clichy and immediately moving inside with Valencia no where near him or Clichy.

Yes it was Mata's fault as well as he let Silva go but Valencia could have and should have done a lot better, at least for me. You may think he did all that he could and I respect that view but that does not make mine or anyone else's biased/invalid.
 
arthurka said:
This is a no brainer at the moment..
We are doing well Tony hasn´t fecked up and is playing well so why change that?
If Rafael is willing to wait his turn he will get a shot at this again or he will be out this summer it´s that simple.
I like Rafael alot but lately Tony has been in fantastic form so I guess LVG has again showed us why he is the United gaffer and we managers of a squad in fantasy league!
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I agree that Valencia has been solid and there is no reason to change a winning system. Valencia has done a major feck up (Arsenal's second goal in the FA cup), but I think at this juncture we cannot afford to bring in a player who has barely featured this season. But then when we see that CBs and CFs are getting subbed because we are winning comfortably, then we could as well give someone like Rafa a chance, unless he is completely not trusted.
 
bishblaize said:
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There is simply nothing wrong with his positioning in this picture. Smalling moved out to cover Milner & he plugged the gap between the two centre backs, which is exactly what he should have done.

Plus he's not just ambling aimlessly, if you watch it again you'll actually see that he's paralleling Clichy's run, who runs around the outside. He follows his run in case he gets the ball from Milner.
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A still pic hardly ever tells the story, don't you think so? I saw the goal multiple times and feel he left Smalling 1 on 2 with both Milner and Clichy going to the left. He could have at least helped Smalling by closing either of Milner or Clichy down but he did not do it.

I will leave it that as we don't seem to agree on this and I can appreciate that you have a differing view of that situation than me.
 
NK86 said:
A still pic hardly ever tells the story, don't you think so? I saw the goal multiple times and feel he left Smalling 1 on 2 with both Milner and Clichy going to the left. He could have at least helped Smalling by closing either of Milner or Clichy down but he did not do it.

I will leave it that as we don't seem to agree on this and I can appreciate that you have a differing view of that situation than me.
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You're being overly critical towards Valencia in a situation where he is not the culprit. There was a stage during the lead up to their first goal where our defensive position was in a similar state to that against Arsenal, in the FA cup. Valencia had pressed Clichy, as he did Sanchez, however, from here, it was clear that we've been working on defending as a team when Smalling decided to cover the space left open by his right back; something we failed to do against Arsenal. The picture above illustrates one of two choices available for Valencia: a) help Smalling out, and leave a massive gap for a City player to wander into whilst hoping a team mate covers or b) stay put and cover the space yourself, as they say, if you want something done, do it yourself. Both Smalling and Valencia ensured that the mistakes they made during the Arsenal game were not repeated; little did they know, they were about to be let down by their team mates.

Mata covers Silva for a few seconds, and rightly, allows Carrick to take over, oh so he thought. Carrick and Mata were definitely not on the same wavelength, and subsequently, allowed Silva to waltz into the space, unmarked. Then, Jones, Herrera and Fellaini failed to pick up Aguero; here I'd blame Jones, though, as he was ball watching.

Blaming Valencia is as a criminal as the defending we witnessed during their first goal. Neither he or Smalling could have known the shambles that was about to unfold, behind them.
 
As I said in the other thread he's been bloody great at the back. And he's keeping Rafael out on merit!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Beggars belief that anyone can single out Valencia as the main culprit in that goal. As that still illustrates perfectly, the issue here is that someone in midfield has let Silva get a run on them (Mata? Hererra? Can't tell who from that image) and it's his run from deep that ultimately cuts us open.

Smalling and Valencia's priority was preventing Milner and Clichy from getting to the byline and/or getting a cross in. Really not much they could have done to prevent such a clever little pass and unmarked run more centrally.

Anyway, it was a superb bit of football from City. Would have unlocked most teams. It's only because of the tedious fecking ongoing witch-hunt of Valencia at fullback that a goal of real quality like that could end up with all this scape-goating.
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Agreed. It was Mata who failed to track his run from deep and then Carrick was caught ball watching. Valencia was no where near fault for that goal.
 
From these posts it looks like we're in agreement why Rafael can't get a game right now. He hasn't done much wrong and is a good footballer. It's just that Valencia has done exactly what LvG requires in the position.

Valencia has made it his position. Like a lot of things with the team, it's belatedly making sense to me now.
 
Distracted Steward said:
From these posts it looks like we're in agreement why Rafael can't get a game right now. He hasn't done much wrong and is a good footballer. It's just that Valencia has done exactly what LvG requires in the position.

Valencia has made it his position. Like a lot of things with the team, it's belatedly making sense to me now.
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Aye. Seems weird but it's almost a shame that Valencia is made of girders.

If he had got injured at any point this season then Rafael would have had more a chance to win Van Gaal round. As it is, Valencia's been deservedly holding onto his place and Van Gaal has evidently seen no reason to make an unenforced change at right back.

I just hope Rafael is willing to accept his new role in the pecking order and/or Van Gaal is doing enough to make him feel loved. With Rafael and Valencia both in our squad I would be perfectly happy with our options at RB next season.
 
NK86 said:
A still pic hardly ever tells the story, don't you think so? I saw the goal multiple times and feel he left Smalling 1 on 2 with both Milner and Clichy going to the left. He could have at least helped Smalling by closing either of Milner or Clichy down but he did not do it.

I will leave it that as we don't seem to agree on this and I can appreciate that you have a differing view of that situation than me.
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Well I can see you don't agree, but look at it from my point of view. You started saying that he should have tracked Milner in the first half hour, but then I pointed out that Milner played central. Then you said he should have tracked Silva for the goal, til I pointed out Silva's run didn't come from his position. Now you're saying he should have tracked Clichy or doubled up on Milner. It kind of sounds like you're just trying to find any way for this to be Valencia's fault.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Aye. Seems weird but it's almost a shame that Valencia is made of girders.

If he had got injured at any point this season then Rafael would have had more a chance to win Van Gaal round. As it is, Valencia's been deservedly holding onto his place and Van Gaal has evidently seen no reason to make an unenforced change at right back.

I just hope Rafael is willing to accept his new role in the pecking order and/or Van Gaal is doing enough to make him feel loved. With Rafael and Valencia both in our squad I would be perfectly happy with our options at RB next season.
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If it works, that's some real quality depth at RB.
 
Sometimes opposition sides score really good goals. All of Valencia, Mata, Herrera, Carrick and Smalling probably could have managed the build up that bit better, but that more or less reinforces the idea that we just got collectively done by some cracking City football.

Rafael is probably my favourite player at the club, but Valencia is fitter and in good form. That's been the case all season and there's no reason to change that now. It's a shame, but I think Rafa has reached the end of the road, primarily because of his body. We need reliability and we also need a better right back than Valencia. I expect that to come in form of a signing in the summer.
 
As the OP that made this debate thread, cannot believe the criticism for the first goal. Thought Valencia was tremendous yesterday, especially when he tracked that City attack which made him run all the way to cover Daley Blind at left back and win the goalkick. Something Rafael would have never done, his sheer determinism and workrate is so undervalued.
 
http://www.timesoccer.com/video/004/17-manchester-city-vs-manchester-united-live-highlights.html

Just so everyone can see for themselves why it's incredulous for anyone to blame Valencia for the first goal.

If we're going to point fingers, it should be Mata for not tracking Silva (and upon rewatching, it might have been because Silva had already beat Mata for pace) and, at a stretch, maybe Smalling for not closing down Milner (which can at least be explained as maybe he didn't want to leave Clichy unmarked). How anyone can blame Valencia for that goal beggars belief.

And the many shots that City got at the beginning of the first half was down the left side because Navas beat Blind for pace many times. It's ironic that people can somehow remember it as Valencia's fault instead.

This is not a matter of differing views. This is a matter of facts and fallacies.
 
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tombombadil said:
http://www.timesoccer.com/video/004/17-manchester-city-vs-manchester-united-live-highlights.html

Just so everyone can see for themselves why it's incredulous for anyone to blame Valencia for the first goal.

If we're going to point fingers, it should be Mata for not tracking Silva (and upon rewatching, it might have been because Silva had already beat Mata for pace) and, at a stretch, maybe Smalling for not closing down Milner (which can at least be explained as maybe he didn't want to leave Clichy unmarked). How anyone can blame Valencia for that goal beggars belief.

And the many shots that City got at the beginning of the first half was down the left side because Navas beat Blind for pace many times. It's ironic that people can somehow remember it as Valencia's fault instead.

This is not a matter of differing views. This is a matter of facts and fallacies.
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Wow. Damning evidence. Valencia did get beat by Clichy but then tracks him all the way.

Smalling lets Milner somewhat walk by him and instead tracks Clichy, unaware that Valencia is already doing so.

Mata just completely decides to stop marking Silva once he gets near the penalty area. As if some sort of force field keeps him out of our defensive zone.

Carrick is watching Milner since Smalling goes after Clichy but Silva escapes his view and ghosts right past him.

Basically, if Mata just keeps running with Silva then the whole move isn't possible.


Blame by the numbers:
Mata: 50%
Valencia and Smalling: 20% each
Carrick: 10%
 
I never am worried to see Valencia at right back these days. He does a decent job, and it seems to suit him more in a lot of games coming from there to support the attack, rather than starting as a winger and just stopping not knowing what to do.

Rafael though is as good as gone. If you can't get in over a makeshift right back, why would he get in next year when we'll definitely be buying a specialist
 
Well the only "issue" I see here for Valencia is that when Clichy passes the ball to Miller and join him, they are both in the corner. When Miller starts drifting inside, Valencia is watching a little bit but he's turning his back on the ball, which is never good in a defensive situation. Should he had not done that, he could have seen Silva but normally at this point, Carrick would be the one noticing that 1/ there is nobody except Aguero in the box and 2/ Silva is making the run so he could try to block him.

However I am quite confident Rafael wouldn't be that good neither. Defence was never his real strength... This is probably the reason why LVG is not pushing hard to try Rafael. He sent him for the reserve games though!

Valencia is maybe not the best RB in the world, but he's doing a good job and improving. Physically, he's very good as well. Tactically, he does provide more and more runs and therefore options that Mata or Herrera or even Rooney can use. What else is to ask for a full back?
 
People can say how Rafael is 10,100 times better RB then Valencia but i dont have any doubts that there is a good reason why he sits on the bench.First of all like RvP said,to play for LvG you need to be fit,not normal fit more like LvG fit. Second you do what he tells you to do,if you cant,you better learn otherwise you wont play,Herrera explained that. Third Valencia doing decent job as RB,guess all in all he ticks more boxes required to play in LvG world.
 
R'hllor said:
People can say how Rafael is 10,100 times better RB then Valencia but i dont have any doubts that there is a good reason why he sits on the bench.First of all like RvP said,to play for LvG you need to be fit,not normal fit more like LvG fit. Second you do what he tells you to do,if you cant,you better learn otherwise you wont play,Herrera explained that. Third Valencia doing decent job as RB,guess all in all he ticks more boxes required to play in LvG world.
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This. This is the truth. At least as of now. I hope Rafael eventually adapts. That would be good for us.
 
Rafael will disappear into obscurity when he leaves United, just like his brother
 
pseudo_canadian said:
Dribbling wise I think Rafa is better, too. I mean, actually having a left foot usually helps.
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Didn't stop Garrincha dribbling players for fun. Most one-footed player you will ever see.

I know what you are getting at with Valencia, it's annoying seeing how it limits his options, but let's not extrapolate to one-footedness equating to being a crap winger incapable of dribbling or crossing.
 
I can't see how people don't have a problem with Valencia's positioning in general or the 1st goal in particular - rewatching it on the MNF video showed that he started off their move with a useless tackle near the halfline which he didn't get near (something he did twice later in the match too) and then switched off and let 2 runners past him on either side.

I'll first off say that I've never been a fan of Valencia after the leg injury, even in his POTY season, because I thought he limited our attacking opotions severely and made it predictable and heavily boring. Yes, I have a bias.

I've been a fan of solid over flair fullbacks and would always pick 07/08 Brown over 12/13 Rafael. IMO Rafael was quite stupid in his positioning and decision-making. I'm 100% confident that he did improve his decision-making 2012 onwards. Over positioning, I know he's been heavily criticised over positioning but I can't believe it's anything as bad as what Valencia has been serving up since Moyes started to use him there regularly. I genuinely believe he does not know how to position himself when it's anything other than a 1v1 duel, and worse, he sometimes tackles with the impetuosness of a young Rafael. I've had this impression since Moyes started using him (last year's away Manchester derby where every simple 1-2 move on his flank made a cutback opportunity), and have been fairly or unfairly picking up his positioning mistakes since then.

I don't know whether or not Rafael has regressed since (like Herrera, Mata previously this season) he's been hidden from public view. Maybe he's not going to hack it anymore at this level, which would be a crying shame since his top level is immense (duels vs Bale, Ronaldo, Hazard and apart from the first 30 mins at the Bernebaeu he never looked unduly threatened).
But I just will never feel confident in a fullback who multiple times a game uses his strength and speed to recover from a bad position and attacking-wise I think a Rafael-Herrera-Mata triangle would be fantastic offensively.

EDIT:
This is the game we'd all want to forget, 4-1 at the Etihad. First goal he's the winger who switches off and doesn't track Zabaleta (whose cross is turned in) But IMO that happens sometimes. What's so much worse is the 3rd goal (2:45). Nasri passes forward past Valencia, and then himself ambles into the box, free, 10 yards from goal. Val does not move from the edge of the box. The cutback goes to another free player (he's free partly because Rio the CB now has his attention on Nasri) and it's a goal.
 
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Valencia is doing a decent job but I think we would be better off with Rafael.
 
bishblaize said:
Well I can see you don't agree, but look at it from my point of view. You started saying that he should have tracked Milner in the first half hour, but then I pointed out that Milner played central. Then you said he should have tracked Silva for the goal, til I pointed out Silva's run didn't come from his position. Now you're saying he should have tracked Clichy or doubled up on Milner. It kind of sounds like you're just trying to find any way for this to be Valencia's fault.
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When I pointed out Milner, I said because I had thought that he had started out wide but when I watched it again, he had started through the middle with Silva out wide. Now you are showing me a still from the whole lead up to the goal. That is just never going to show the whole picture of how it happened. I saw the goal many times and the whole match again. First Clichy dribbled past Valencia, who in turn started to just jog back trying to get in position. Since he was caught out, Smalling moved to the right to try and fend off the cross and close Clichy down and that is when Milner moved left to double up on Smalling while Silva moved infield. Mata then started tracking Silva while Smalling was double teamed by Milner and Clichy. And you showed me a still pic in which Valencia is between Smalling and Mata marking thin air. He was never close enough to Milner/Clichy to stop the cross in case they dribbled past Smalling and he he was stuck in no man's land.

It might sound very harsh but that is exactly how I saw it the first time and after seeing umpteen replays, I still hold the same view. I did say that he improved a lot in the second half and his pace and strength bailed us out a couple of times. So overall he had a solid game but for the first 20-30 mins he was all over the place in terms of defensive positioning as can be seen when he was caught out for their goal. There was also an instance where his pace helped track down Aguero when he was through, with Valencia as the last man but what many might not have noticed is Aguero was played onside by Valencia in the first place when Smalling and the rest of the back 4 barring Valencia stepped up and had it not been for Valencia's pace we could have been in trouble. So he redeemed the situation and I praise him for that but his lack of positioning and awareness as a RB at times is because he is not a natural RB.

I maintain that we should keep our back 4 as it is for the remainder of the season and should not tinker with it in the run-in but hopefully next season we will have a proper RB who will provide more while going forward and also would know defensive positioning better than Valencia.
 
berbatrick said:
I can't see how people don't have a problem with Valencia's positioning in general or the 1st goal in particular - rewatching it on the MNF video showed that he started off their move with a useless tackle near the halfline which he didn't get near (something he did twice later in the match too) and then switched off and let 2 runners past him on either side.
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I don't think people are saying that he did nothing wrong. However a missed tackle on the halfway line doesn't put the whole goal on him, which was the claim. No one seems to be blaming Herrera who misses an identical tackle a moment later.

As for the runners, which runners were his exactly? Certainly not silva who was being marked by mata.

And he couldn't get close to clichy without leaving the back line. Running off and leaving a huge gap on the edge of the 18 yard box just for the sake of trying to get close to a player who may only have been making a dummy run anyway would be awful defending.
 
tombombadil said:
Some people are still blaming Valencia? Sigh. Haters gonna hate. Facts don't matter. Even when a clear cut video evidence absolves him. hahaha
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Makes you wonder if they rate Carrick as well.

Shape>>>>all-action chicken
 
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