Battlefield Calais: 'the swarm'

[Jippy]

Can't actually see a thread on this despite it dominating the news flow all week.

We clearly have an international humanitarian crisis on our hands here, but it has predictability descended into a political point-scoring exercise (certainly from the opposition's point of view), despite it being an issue in another developed sovereign state.

Good to see Labour being the party of compassion with ******* Harman's gripes against Cameron being solely the effect on business and middle class holidaymakers facing delays- WE WANT COMPENSATION!
'Your discussions with the French government should therefore include a request for compensation backed up by any diplomatic pressure that may become necessary. Compensation should cover all losses.'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/01/harman-david-cameron-calais-migrant-crisis

Meanwhile, the UN representative helpfully goes all out emotive
'Many of those in Calais are refugees, just as the Jewish people were in 1939.'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/01/church-attacks-david-cameron-language-asylum-crisis

And the church wades in slating Cameron's use of the word 'swarm' as 'toxic'. Er, it can mean a large number of people moving you know.

What the hell do you do about Calais?

 

[711]

Falling out with the French would be about the stupidest thing the UK could do. Whatever happens we need to listen to them, co-operate with them, and adopt joint plans.

 

[KjaAnd]

A solution involving all the European countries is the only possibility. Some areas are obviously flooded by migrants while some countries are taking absolutely no responsibility. I know the Calais migrants want to go the UK, but I'm pretty sure they would accept and prefer a stable life in Estonia to living in "the jungle".

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I say offer them asylum, but some sort of bilateral agreement is required.

 

[Jippy]

Falling out with the French would be about the stupidest thing the UK could do. Whatever happens we need to listen to them, co-operate with them, and adopt joint plans.

Yep, you could argue that with Cameron trying to get EU reform voted through to stymie the referendum, he needs as many member states onside as possible.

 

[Jippy]

I say offer them asylum, but some sort of bilateral agreement is required.

All of them? Would that not encourage a new 'swarm'? A guy on C4 news the other day was arguing that they aren't technically refugees if they are in France- they are in no danger there, they are just choosing the UK for economic reasons.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

All of them? Would that not encourage a new 'swarm'? A guy on C4 news the other day was arguing that they aren't technically refugees if they are in France- they are in no danger there, they are just choosing the UK for economic reasons.

Accepting refugees en masse would set a precedent, so it isn't going to happen (especially with a Tory government). I just instinctively hate seeing the media demonise refugees, which is happening quite subtly in some cases.

 

[rednev]

The 'let them in' argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny unless the arguer is of the opinion that the UK should allow entry to an unlimited number of people, which in itself would be a nonsense position. If the UK were to permit entry to everyone currently in the camp at Calais, the number of people seeking entry over the coming weeks and months would increase beyond control - it would be an absolutely reckless thing to do.

The first thing that has to be done is the securing of the border. It can't be that difficult, FFS. We are literally talking about a border that is a few metres in diameter. Isolated groups will inevitably get through in lorries and whatnot if the traffic flows are to run as they need to, but the obvious mass entries of people through the tunnel is making mockery of the idea of a secure border. The French have no incentive to secure the border on their end so it is up to the UK to take whatever measures necessary.

 

[Jippy]

Accepting refugees en masse would set a precedent, so it isn't going to happen (especially with a Tory government). I just instinctively hate seeing the media demonise refugees, which is happening quite subtly in some cases.

Yeah ditto. You don't make the desperate decision to risk everything in those godawful boats getting here for nothing. No-one wants to see genuinely desperate people demonised, but I genuinely do wonder what kind of reception they expect? Do they expect to be welcome and given jobs and homes? You do wonder what shite traffickers tell them to make them part with their life savings to try and get here.

Ultimately I guess, if your day-to-day life is dodging bullets and/or foraging for enough food to feed your family every day, then perils of the crossing and public perception must be small-fry. That said, I do have an issue with refugees picking and choosing where they want to seek asylum- it is naturally going to erode sympathy and lead to questions about their motives, ie economic migrants.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

but I genuinely do wonder what kind of reception they expect? Do they expect to be welcome and given jobs and homes? You do wonder what shite traffickers tell them to make them part with their life savings to try and get here.

Not sure they want a reception, probably just a better life which they assume is possible to a greater extent in England because they have English language skills.

That said, I do have an issue with refugees picking and choosing where they want to seek asylum- it is naturally going to erode sympathy and lead to questions about their motives, ie economic migrants.

That's a good point. It does seem slightly selective -- France is a first world country, they probably had to travel through other first world countries to get to France.

 

[Jippy]

Not sure they want a reception, probably just a better life which they assume is possible to a greater extent in England because they have English language skills.



That's a good point. It does seem slightly selective -- France is a first world country, they probably had to travel through other first world countries to get to France.

From a lot of the news interviews I've seen, the vast majority don't have English language skills. On the other point, I was out with an Italian and an Irish guy on Friday- I guess Italy is the point of entry if you come from north Africa. Is the argument that if you are that desperate, surely any European country will do argument too simplistic? Probably, but then going on to traverse Europe and risk and limb getting through the eurotunnel suggests Britain is being targeted.

 

[carvajal]

That photo is from the gate in Melilla, many of them come through Melilla and Ceuta(and of course Sicily), that gate has knives and they don´t care, they continue coming. Spain send them to Morocco, Morocco leave them in the desert next to the border with Algeria and they come back until they get it. Some days in summer there are thousands trying to cross. According to some interviews, if they are from Cameroun/Senegal/Guinea they use to stay in France and I suppose that the nigerians are trying to pass to UK looking for family. Spanish police was criticized for the methods but they don´t know what to do. They increased the height of the gate several times but they jump anyway and attack them, hundreds against a few polices. What is the solution? build a wall, or use more drastic methods that rubber bullets? .Agreements with countries of origin do not work, mainly because they are delighted with the emigration

 

[That'sHernandez]

Accepting refugees en masse would set a precedent, so it isn't going to happen (especially with a Tory government). I just instinctively hate seeing the media demonise refugees, which is happening quite subtly in some cases.

It's not even subtly in my opinion. Pretty much every media outlet has been reporting this as though they are subhuman and not deserve of our time or breath in this country. Even the BBC is at it. The irony is lots of Brits are proud of their country being a good place to live that people would risk their lives to live here, but then act as though those people don't deserve to live a better life on these shores. It's disgraceful.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

From a lot of the news interviews I've seen, the vast majority don't have English language skills. On the other point, I was out with an Italian and an Irish guy on Friday- I guess Italy is the point of entry if you come from north Africa. Is the argument that if you are that desperate, surely any European country will do argument too simplistic? Probably, but then going on to traverse Europe and risk and limb getting through the eurotunnel suggests Britain is being targeted.

Maybe, as there is direct evidence to suggest that not all countries are equal in the eyes of these refugees -- the traversing of Europe, discarding first world host countries along the way (I'd like to know more about the process, though).

It's not even subtly in my opinion. Pretty much every media outlet has been reporting this as though they are subhuman and not deserve of our time or breath in this country. Even the BBC is at it. The irony is lots of Brits are proud of their country being a good place to live that people would risk their lives to live here, but then act as though those people don't deserve to live a better life on these shores. It's disgraceful.

Agreed -- but the subtlety I'm referring to is language loaded with negative connotations. There are, of course, more overt forms of discrimination on display, depending on the news outlet.

 

[Jippy]

It's not even subtly in my opinion. Pretty much every media outlet has been reporting this as though they are subhuman and not deserve of our time or breath in this country. Even the BBC is at it. The irony is lots of Brits are proud of their country being a good place to live that people would risk their lives to live here, but then act as though those people don't deserve to live a better life on these shores. It's disgraceful.

It's not really an irony is it? Do you remember the Midsomers Murders producer who got hung by his petard when he said they didn't want ethnic minorities in the programme? Calais may once have been a nice place to live. Just feel those saying we should take all these refugees in are generally the same ones moaning about lack of housing, benefit cuts and NHS shortages. Irony again?

Maybe, as there is direct evidence to suggest that not all countries are equal in the eyes of these refugees -- the traversing of Europe, discarding first world host countries along the way (I'd like to know more about the process, though).

Does that not undermine your refugee claim though? Yeah I'm desperate, but feck Italy, I want the UK? I appreciate a certain number may have family ties or understand the language better, but it is more than that, given the numbers.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Does that not undermine your refugee claim though? Yeah I'm desperate, but feck Italy, I want the UK? I appreciate a certain number may have family ties or understand the language better, but it is more than that, given the numbers.

It depends on whether it is as clear cut as that (which I doubt). I don't know enough about the circumstances, but I can't see it being as simple as "feck Italy, there's greener grass elsewhere".

 

[Jippy]

I've no idea either, but apparently Germany and Sweden take the most refugees in the EU, despite our own propaganda. It's a tough subject to debate without it descending into some A-level style ideological affair tbh.

 

[LeChuck]

It's a sad state of affairs that we, (Europe), helped create when we went around colonising and meddling in other countries. There was a really interesting clip of an Algerian man on Sky News I saw yday (cba to post from my phone), who basically touched upon the displacement of people from the Iraq War, and the French in Algeria. And this is the repercussion that we have to accept and deal with properly.

 

[Penna]

We'll be there on Wednesday evening trying to get through the Tunnel. Have booked an insurance crossing on the ferry from Dunkirk, just in case we have to make a rapid detour, but that's a last resort as we'll have the dogs with us.

I have much sympathy for the migrants but very little for the French strikers who are starting fires. However, in a small country like Britain, sadly we can't just take in everyone who is looking for a better life. Real refugees should always get priority, people who are in actual danger in their home countries.

 

[Smores]

The issue is the media know the is a hot topic and are making as much out of it as possible. They're still reporting the thousands line despite it being clarified and all of the fallout from strikes etc is being subtly portrayed as a result of the migrants.

We're really not a pleasant country at times. Stories have been emerging across Europe of communities showing human empathy in welcoming and aiding the refugees en mass. Yet we still believe they're all coming here and we can't possibly do anything to assist them.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It's a sad state of affairs that we, (Europe), helped create when we went around colonising and meddling in other countries. There was a really interesting clip of an Algerian man on Sky News I saw yday (cba to post from my phone), who basically touched upon the displacement of people from the Iraq War, and the French in Algeria. And this is the repercussion that we have to accept and deal with properly.

The people at Calais are almost all from sub-Saharan Africa so I don't see any connection with the Iraq war or a war of independence in Algeria that ended over 50 years ago. The simple fact of the matter is you have the world's richest, most stable region adjacent to the world's poorest and most war torn and, understandably, people from the latter want the better life on offer in Europe.

The problem is that the UK is one of the most densely populated countries on earth and its public services are already under severe strain. Letting in tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands if we open the gates) of unskilled migrants from Africa is not exactly going to improve that situation. Other parts of Europe are also under severe budgetary constraints due to the Euro crisis, with many of them having huge youth unemployment rates.

So, while I feel very sorry for them, the only sustainable way of trying to solve this issue is to improve the situation in Africa. Unfortunately, I have no idea how that can be done, and it would be particularly awkward for the UK to get involved given its colonial past in Africa.

 

[Stanley Road]

Freedom of movement

Surely there are job vacancies in the UK and europe that need filling, I hate the unfairness in the world today

"Keep em out, that's what I say"

Ian Foot

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The people at Calais are almost all from sub-Saharan Africa so I don't see any connection with the Iraq war or a war of independence in Algeria that ended over 50 years ago. The simple fact of the matter is you have the world's richest, most stable region adjacent to the world's poorest and most war torn and, understandably, people from the latter want the better life on offer in Europe.

The problem is that the UK is one of the most densely populated countries on earth and its public services are already under severe strain. Letting in tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands if we open the gates) of unskilled migrants from Africa is not exactly going to improve that situation. Other parts of Europe are also under severe budgetary constraints due to the Euro crisis, with many of them having huge youth unemployment rates.

So, while I feel very sorry for them, the only sustainable way of trying to solve this issue is to improve the situation in Africa. Unfortunately, I have no idea how that can be done, and it would be particularly awkward for the UK to get involved given its colonial past in Africa.

Medium to long term the biggest threat of all to those resources, by far, is your aging population. Looking after people who are no longer paying any tax yet needing more and more input from health and social services. You really need to find a way to bring down the average age of the UK citizen. Perhaps bringing in youth from abroad might help turn things round?

 

[golden_blunder]

Tall walls and machine gun towers
Then if they get past that stake pits, electrified trains

 

[Bury Red]

Medium to long term the biggest threat of all to those resources, by far, is your aging population. Looking after people who are no longer paying any tax yet needing more and more input from health and social services. You really need to find a way to bring down the average age of the UK citizen. Perhaps bringing in youth from abroad might help turn things round?

Very true, and as for population density, the UK doesn't even make the top 20% of countries worldwide and the reason the infrastructure's crumbling is down to 50 years to a century of chronic underfunding and political mismanagement.

I've lived in 2 of the top 4 most densely populated countries on this planet and was among the 30-40% of the population there that were immigrants and like most of them I was working on building and improving the infrastructure there.

 

[africanspur]

Does that not undermine your refugee claim though? Yeah I'm desperate, but feck Italy, I want the UK? I appreciate a certain number may have family ties or understand the language better, but it is more than that, given the numbers.

Having worked in refugee health in the past, I can tell you that the situation for them in Italy is generally pretty abysmal. A lot of the refugees I worked with came from Italy and Greece and I don't blame them one bit.

Sure, the country is safer than their country of origin. Beyond that though, it would be difficult to argue that their life has particularly improved in any way and many of them end up serving time in prisons for working or selling wares (though they are also not eligible for benefits).

Outside of France, Germany, the Scandinavian countries and the UK (though we're increasingly making their lives more and more difficult) I don't think Europe is particularly welcoming or great for the majority of refugees.

 

[Dracula]

I know the Calais migrants want to go the UK, but I'm pretty sure they would accept and prefer a stable life in Estonia to living in "the jungle".

Despite how desperate they are, they travelled through both spain and france to get to the uk.

 

[rcoobc]

Remember that it was DFDS, Eurotunnel and the Competition Commissioner that kicked of the Operation Stack crisis, and not these migrants.

Spoiler

As for the humanitarian problem in Calais... It's going to be pretty much identical to everywhere else where people seeking asylum travel illegally into a foreign country. Lots of paperwork, and a big headache ensues.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

What about turning all the lorries into Mad Max road warrior type vehicles. That should keep them off the lorries.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Medium to long term the biggest threat of all to those resources, by far, is your aging population. Looking after people who are no longer paying any tax yet needing more and more input from health and social services. You really need to find a way to bring down the average age of the UK citizen. Perhaps bringing in youth from abroad might help turn things round?

There's two separate issues there. Firstly, I agree migration is necessary but it should be a controlled process using a points system. While I don't accept the Daily Mail line that they are coming to scrounge, I struggle to see what most of those people rushing the barriers at Calais are going to bring to the UK's human capital given their likely level of education and training. The second issue is how to fund the NHS, which would mean taking this thread off course, but suffice to say I don't think the post-WWII system is still sustainable.

As for @Bury Red , England (as opposed to UK) is now the most densely populated country in Europe. Sure, it's not at Singapore or Hong Kong levels but our neighbors should be the yardstick rather than very different city state societies.

 

[Bury Red]

As for @Bury Red , England (as opposed to UK) is now the most densely populated country in Europe. Sure, it's not at Singapore or Hong Kong levels but our neighbors should be the yardstick rather than very different city state societies.

Fine, although you did say UK and whilst the table is topped by city states there's still developed countries like Japan, Taiwan and South Korea way ahead of England's population density with better infrastructure whilst Belgium and the Netherlands are at about the same level as England yet fare much better on the infrastructure front. Infrastructure decay is government neglect plain and simple in the UK and has been ever since the post war building boom ended, we don't compare well with out neighbours, shit we don't compare well with India truth be told.

As for the images of migrants at Calais rushing the fences or swamping wagons to smuggle themselves on board, I'd put money on the press having actually stage managed most of those images. The camps at Calais have been there ever since the Tunnel opened and it's not some huge invasion force, it's a sad bedraggled mess of people that drift aimlessly along the side of the E40 and A16 in the vain hope of finding someone daft enough to try to smuggle them across. I drive through it most weeks and it's depressing but certainly not the terrifying siege image portrayed in our press.

 

[SteveJ]

I just instinctively hate seeing the media demonise refugees, which is happening quite subtly in some cases.

The Mail's biggest story, naturally, was the 'fact' that some refugees are getting three meals a day and staying at a hotel; because, apparently, the struggles of 'hard-working middle class families' etc etc are more important than those of the refugees.

 

[That'sHernandez]

It's not really an irony is it? Do you remember the Midsomers Murders producer who got hung by his petard when he said they didn't want ethnic minorities in the programme? Calais may once have been a nice place to live. Just feel those saying we should take all these refugees in are generally the same ones moaning about lack of housing, benefit cuts and NHS shortages. Irony again?

I'm torn in a response here; my absolute ideal is that there are no national boarders and everyone in the world is free to move and live wherever they like, so long as they are working and contributing to the local economy*. Based upon that, yes I do think we should let all of them in, however the reality is if we did that then there would be some that would look to exploit the system or fall out of the systeM and I don't mean to generalise in that way but I think it's a fact of reality, just like there are plenty of native Brits who exploit our welfare state and benefits system.

I don't know much about a lack of housing, the concept seems a bit ridiculous to me; I live in the North, there are plenty of houses. There's even a house on my road that been unoccupied for as long as I can remember, or I think it has because it looks ridiculously run down, and the there is a flat across the street that had a for rent sign in the window for months. There's plenty of housing but not all of it is affordable, especially if you're living in the South/South East. As far as benefits are concerned, I think cuts needed to be made there because it's unfair that someone can live their life on benefits without having to do a day's work and earn more than someone who is trying to make a living on a low paid job and changes had to be made as far as that goes. The Labour party wouldn't have lost so spectacularly in the General Election if there were a public outcry for left or even centre-left policies, so good luck to them if they're mad enough to make Corbyn their leader, I won't be voting for them again...but that's for another thread. The NHS should always be adequately funded to avoid shortages, simple as that. I appreciate what you're saying and a lot of people are being leftist for the sake of being seen as a liberal lefty.

I think the thing I care about most is that these are people so desperate to live in a place where they think they will have a better life, they are prepared to risk it for the opportunity and then our media essentially demonises them and portrays them as subhuman apes, looking to cause trouble. Realistically they can't all be let in and I don't really understand what is wrong with living in France, Spain or Italy, whatever country they came through to get to Calais, if they have no family ties in Britain.

*Not in anarchy, I believe in governance.

 

[sun_tzu]

Certainly helps Cameron in getting some traction with his eu immigration / benefits agenda

 

[Penna]

I'd love people to come with their families, settle in Britain, work and become part of the wider community. I don't care which country they were born in and I can absolutely understand the drive to better yourself and improve the lot of your loved ones. We've always had people here from all corners of the earth, it's nothing new.

Unfortunately, for most economic migrants this isn't possible. I think that's why we see so many lone young men trying to get across the Channel, rather than whole families. The public perception isn't helped by TV programmes which show clever working-of-the-system by a few people who will eventually go back home to their economically-challenged countries, and enjoy the relative wealth their British benefits have brought them. That makes good TV for DM aficionados. However, I tend to think that these people are a very small minority, just as professional benefit claimants who were born in Britain are also a minority, in comparison with people who have simply fallen on hard times.

 

[DOTA]

And the church wades in slating Cameron's use of the word 'swarm' as 'toxic'. Er, it can mean a large number of people moving you know.

It's certainly toxic in this context.

 

[KjaAnd]

Despite how desperate they are, they travelled through both spain and france to get to the uk.

Yes, but staying in either of those countries illegally wouldn't be much better than their current situation in Calais - hence why the best solution is offering them asylum and a stable life in some of countries not taking many migrants.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'd love people to come with their families, settle in Britain, work and become part of the wider community. I don't care which country they were born in and I can absolutely understand the drive to better yourself and improve the lot of your loved ones. We've always had people here from all corners of the earth, it's nothing new.

Unfortunately, for most economic migrants this isn't possible. I think that's why we see so many lone young men trying to get across the Channel, rather than whole families. The public perception isn't helped by TV programmes which show clever working-of-the-system by a few people who will eventually go back home to their economically-challenged countries, and enjoy the relative wealth their British benefits have brought them. That makes good TV for DM aficionados. However, I tend to think that these people are a very small minority, just as professional benefit claimants who were born in Britain are also a minority, in comparison with people who have simply fallen on hard times.

Amen.

 

[Stookie]

It's a sad state of affairs that we, (Europe), helped create when we went around colonising and meddling in other countries. There was a really interesting clip of an Algerian man on Sky News I saw yday (cba to post from my phone), who basically touched upon the displacement of people from the Iraq War, and the French in Algeria. And this is the repercussion that we have to accept and deal with properly.

Yup.... It's certainly us who are having to deal with it now. I wonder how long we will have to deal with it for... Or even if there will be an end?

 

[ThierryHenry]

Is our benefit system really significantly better than France's? I don't understand the risks these people are taking for that movement - does it maybe come from a cultural dominance of English speaking countries in Northern Africa?