lol.
You find it hard to believe that Bastian might make a mistake but are immediately ready to believe that a LVG, a manager renowned for being anal about tactics and positioning got it wrong.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
lol.
You find it hard to believe that Bastian might make a mistake but are immediately ready to believe that a LVG, a manager renowned for being anal about tactics and positioning got it wrong.
Maybe because I was replying to a post that commented:
Which made me link some thoughts from the two games?
The other connection is fairly obvious, the players didn't (or couldn't) follow LvG's instructions - he told us so. The players aren't novices, certainly players like Blind, Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Rooney are LvG's first choices, yet they were part of the problem on Sunday.
I'd also say that loss of concentration following an incident, or a goal, even ones we score, has been a fairly common theme for us. That doesn't make us unique, it happens to lots of teams, but if it does, it normally kills your hopes of winning anything.
Of course we've had some good results this season, in fact we've probably had more good results than good performances. But we've also had matches like Swansea where an opponent did something unexpected (a sub and a formation change). We didn't respond and 10 minutes later we'd gone from winning 1-0 to losing 2-1.
I think that inability to react is a problem, and that our game plans rely too much on perfection in our game, and not enough on players covering for each other. Call me paranoid - I just don't know that many perfect players, especially when there's another team trying to stop them being perfect.
Aah, but he has been good on the ball and is left footed. Why defend when he has those other attributes.
I just re-realized something, our team lack character and drive, they don't play like they want to win, they don't play like they want to have fun, they play for the sake of playing.
People will blame the philosophy for our lack of intent but I blame the motivations of the players and the motivational skills of the coach.
People will blame the philosophy for our lack of intent but I blame the motivations of the players and the motivational skills of the coach.
There's something in this... but Van Gaal is charismatic and should be able to motivate the team. Or is Giggs still giving the team talks?? (I hope not as that sounded a bad idea to me)
I think you make a really good point! What players at the moment could we honestly say play with character and drive?
Our play is so methodical and rehearsed that no players look like they are enjoying their football.
Rooney who has always been about enjoying football and giving it his all doesn't do that. Memphis plays for himself most of the time and nobody in the team bar Smalling strikes me as truly caring for the club.
Where is the passion when we are 1/2/3-0 down? Where are the leaders screaming for a reaction? Or the player that makes a huge tackle that gets the team going? There's none of that!
Is that down to the manager? I think in part it absolutely is. How can you enjoy playing football that is so rehearsed? That's so thought out and there's to be no deviation from the game plan until the manager throws on Fellaini? Where creative players are told to play a specific way and not be themselves.
And then at 2-0 down yesterday they turn to the sideline and what's the coach doing? Oh shock he's sat on his backside again. Not showing any passion. So if the manager doesn't seem to give a monkeys then why should the players playing for him?
I don't really like how he put all the blame on the players yesterday by talking about the players not following the game plan. The point that he's missing here is that Arsenal also had a game plan and that was a huge factor on the outcome of the game. It is up to him, not the players, to recognise this and reorganise.
Which brings me to another point which somebody else made to me. He seems completely incapable of changing the team without substitutions. Fergie and most other managers will reorganise the 11 on the pitch to counter the opposition. Too many times he puts all his hope on somebody coming off the bench and immediately getting into the rythm of the game and then making a difference, which is a big ask. That front four of ours is very flexible and yet he doesn't allow them to rotate. As bad as Memphis was yesterday, surely it was worth swapping him and Rooney before making the change. Even if he'd have moved Mata centrally and put Memphis down the right.
Which brings me to another point which somebody else made to me. He seems completely incapable of changing the team without substitutions. Fergie and most other managers will reorganise the 11 on the pitch to counter the opposition. Too many times he puts all his hope on somebody coming off the bench and immediately getting into the rythm of the game and then making a difference, which is a big ask. That front four of ours is very flexible and yet he doesn't allow them to rotate. As bad as Memphis was yesterday, surely it was worth swapping him and Rooney before making the change. Even if he'd have moved Mata centrally and put Memphis down the right.
The game hasn't been lost by a poor game plan but by a poor mental conditioning, we lost that game because none of our players had a chip on their shoulders, Arsenal came to fight, we came to play. That's partially on LVG because it's his job to make that the players are 100% involved from the first to the last minutes, but the players should be able to maintain their hunger high by themselves otherwise they have nothing to do at the high level.
I know people don't like the Keane reference but we lack a player like him, we lack a captain that sets high standards, a player that pushes the ambition always higher.
I don't mind the constant referring to Keane because he's the last top captain we had. I would say there is a player in our team who can become that player for us - Schweinsteiger. If we were playing Arsenal right now, I'd like to see him in Rooney's role backed up by Carrick and Schneiderlin.
It's no surprise. His ego regarding his 'philosophy' dictates that. Yet still we haven't seen this supposed 'philosophy'. He gets a HUGE free ride by many United fans. When Moyes came out with crap he was torn to shreds, and rightfully so, yet Van Gaal does it and little is said. Van Gaal also said he had no idea how the game turned out like that. Imagine the reaction to Moyes saying that.
He also said the following:
“The problem did not start at the back, it started in midfield,” he said.
“They cannot make their passes so easily. My thinking was that in this game I could do it with Schweinsteiger and Carrick and you saw that in the second half''
Yet more tripe. Most of this forum could see Carrick and Schweinsteiger shouldn't be playing together as a two. And then he goes onto say that his thinking has sense because Carrick and Schweinsteiger managed to get a foot hold in the game when Arsenal had the game sewn up and had no need to attack.
Is it so hard to believe that LVG got it wrong? Bastian may very well have made a serious mistake pushing that high, but I doubt that a player of his intelligence and caliber would do it so readily. The team that LVG put out that way already showed that his tactics were wrong. Yes he is renowned for his emphasis on tactics and positioning and yet he has gotten it wrong just as often as he has right with us. I'm not discounting one or the other, they are mutually exclusive; I was stating my opinion on the matter.
I'm holding out hope that Pep might fancy a change in a couple of years and can take over and build upon what LVG leaves behind. Which should hopefully be a side already well on their way. So voted for 3 in the poll. I was very disappointed with the Arsenal game but overall we've done okay-ish so far this season. Needs to give Memphis a brak from the team and either try Rooney on the left in the meantime or drop him as well.
Yes we fecked it against Arsenal but this shit happens all the time, it happened to City last week against Tottenham who are much weaker team than Arsenal and they were spanked through all the match, we were terrible just for 20 minutes. It was the first game of the season we didn't deserve to win, we were better team against PSV, Swansea and Newcastle.
I'm saying this for a long time, he assembled a great squad and we are 2-3 really top class players from being as good as any club around. I have believe that we will win PL under him because he is determined to do it and i am confident that he will leave great faundations for the next manager. And next manager should be Pep for sure because he will know how to continue the work LVG is doing at our club.
I'm saying this for a long time, he assembled a great squad and we are 2-3 really top class players from being as good as any club around. I have believe that we will win PL under him because he is determined to do it and i am confident that he will leave great faundations for the next manager. And next manager should be Pep for sure because he will know how to continue the work LVG is doing at our club.
Thinking about dropping a vote,so before that i have a question for those watching u18/u21 etc. Those teams playing in same/similar way like seniors? Was there any staff change in there since LvG took over?
There's hardly any point playing his way with the kids. He won't be around once his contract ends and we will again change style of play with the new manager.
I agree.
Regarding those quotes you also mentioned, it makes him come across a bit...simple, in my opinion. As you said, from 3-0 onwards, Arsenal allowed us to play our usual sideways passes. Surely Van Gaal can recognise this? There's nothing good about what we did in the second half. It was an easy day out for them, and that's something that should never be said about a game against us.
Well there would be a point if those who hired LvG,take someone after him who base on similar foundation his way of play.Otherwise,whats a point really.We can not waste time of pressing soft reset button and change a direction with new manager every time,feck that.
He was an experienced guy that was available, could steady the ship and potentially win things. I don't think much more thought went into it than that. Especially when it looks highly likely that Giggs will replace him.
Talent will still be produced. Just minor positional formations would be tweaked by a new manager. Most top clubs now play a very similar formation. 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1 which is basically the same.
The more I think about this one the more I am baffled as to how spectacularly van gaal messed this up. maybe it's the benefit of hindsight, but seeing no schneiderlin in lineup yesterday made me fear for the worst and unfortunately that came to fruition.
arsenal has quick players who can easily expose slow immobile midfield we put up yesterday and quality to punish us and they did just that. when we did not pack the midfield and start a defensive midfielder in schneiderlin, professional at breaking down opposition attacks, in attempt to nullify their threats we were asking for trouble. isn't that what we bought him for in the first place? to protect our back 4 and ensure that our midfield is not overrun? sure, there have been individual errors that led to goals that had little to do with our starting lineup. sure, arsenal were in their top game and likely still scored a goal in the first half regardless of our setup.
but I'm quite confident if we set up defensively in attempt to nullify their pace and cutting edge, at worst things wouldn't have been nearly as bad in the first 20 minutes and we would've had a more even game throughout instead of the shit we served. regardless of if arsenal scored 0 or 3 in the first 20 minutes, no side can sustain that kind of pressure for the full 90 minutes and it was clear to see as they had to change their approach and sit back and attempt to hit us on the counter during the second half, allowing us more time on the ball.
van gaal surely has to take note of this failure to prevent future meltdowns like this. failure breeds success? or at least I hope.
arsenal has quick players who can easily expose slow immobile midfield we put up yesterday and quality to punish us and they did just that. when we did not pack the midfield and start a defensive midfielder in schneiderlin, professional at breaking down opposition attacks, in attempt to nullify their threats we were asking for trouble. isn't that what we bought him for in the first place? to protect our back 4 and ensure that our midfield is not overrun? sure, there have been individual errors that led to goals that had little to do with our starting lineup. sure, arsenal were in their top game and likely still scored a goal in the first half regardless of our setup.
but I'm quite confident if we set up defensively in attempt to nullify their pace and cutting edge, at worst things wouldn't have been nearly as bad in the first 20 minutes and we would've had a more even game throughout instead of the shit we served. regardless of if arsenal scored 0 or 3 in the first 20 minutes, no side can sustain that kind of pressure for the full 90 minutes and it was clear to see as they had to change their approach and sit back and attempt to hit us on the counter during the second half, allowing us more time on the ball.
van gaal surely has to take note of this failure to prevent future meltdowns like this. failure breeds success? or at least I hope.
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Well maybe Giggs adopted base from LvG,he might just build his way on top of that.
I dont worry about talents,just want to see all ranks synced,pushing in same way,playing the same way from young age,so when they get promoted tomorrow,they dont need to adapt on way of doing things or playing style,so formation isnt an issue,even i cant stand 4-2-3-1 formation in general.
Is it against the rules for the assistant to show emotions ..get mad etc ? Maybe he was in shock ? Hopefully if/when he's in charge he remembers those hairdryer treatment and haul his ass and let everyone in that stadium know he's mad as hell and everyone will have to answer to him at halftime.
Sometimes managers get things wrong. All managers.
He won't forget the lesson Arsenal taught him and I imagine we'll see a bit of a shake up against Everton, maybe a return to the 4-3-3? Playing that way we got spanked in Everton away last season though, so I'm a bit torn.
It was a shitty day, but these things happen and I'm still not reading too much into it as overall we're in a good spot in the league all in all and went on a decent little run just before this game. Let's not forget how Arsenal lost 3-0 against Chelsea or Tottenham - City 4-1 just recently.
I do wonder though if more rotation is needed as the team has looked tired in the last two games.
It's a shame that once again we managed to lose a game just before an international break as we get two weeks of moaning on here.
He won't forget the lesson Arsenal taught him and I imagine we'll see a bit of a shake up against Everton, maybe a return to the 4-3-3? Playing that way we got spanked in Everton away last season though, so I'm a bit torn.
It was a shitty day, but these things happen and I'm still not reading too much into it as overall we're in a good spot in the league all in all and went on a decent little run just before this game. Let's not forget how Arsenal lost 3-0 against Chelsea or Tottenham - City 4-1 just recently.
I do wonder though if more rotation is needed as the team has looked tired in the last two games.
It's a shame that once again we managed to lose a game just before an international break as we get two weeks of moaning on here.
Well it was well written about his obsession with attacking total football, he was credited with Barcelona's success etc. And he also explained the reason he set Holland up that way because he did not have the player he needs hence I was sure he would be all for attacking football.
It's just weird that all the positives things about him before he arrive are now his negatives.
My disappointment is that after 2-0 (you can say 1-0 is an accident, surely the players will react), LVG did feck all to change the tactics or formation. That stupid lack of reaction between the second and third goal was incredible. What would it have taken to see some change ?
Spoken like a true defeatist
Absolutely bob on my friend! LVG gets a nice ride compared to Moyes and why? Because he's had success (in other countries) and because he handles the media better. Those are the only reasons why he gets a free ride.
The faith in this guy is quite astounding I find. In the 15 months he's been at the club the football has been dire and the results not much better than Moyes. And that's despite spending £250m!
Yes he's been successful elsewhere but his philosophy is not suited to England. Our play is far too slow in a league all about speed and our defense is not good enough!
Tactically he was embarrassed by Wenger on Sunday and Wenger is far from the master tactician.
Being top of the league just covered the huge holes in this team. Nobody could believe or explain how we had got there. And nobody bar blinded fans thought we'd stay there for the season.
We could still compete for the title, hell we could even win it. But that's not down to the manager. It's down to our rivals not taking the opportunity. Top 4 seems nailed on right now... Let's see if people still think that after we've played Everton, City and Palace.
Moyes got tons of stick, yet Saint Louis gets away with it. When Moyes would sit in his seat and do nothing to change the game he'd get ripped to shreds, Van Gaal does the same and it's okay.
I don't see where the faith in him stems from. We play crap football 90% of the time. We've spent a fortune and what player do we send on to effect the game? We send Marouane Fellaini on. And then we deploy him deep.
We have no squad depth. We ended up with three midfielders in our back four on Sunday. Rooney is guaranteed a spot every game when he's absolutely useless. Memphis continues to play yet has been poor. Mata is so slow yet we play him on the wing. For me, his philosophy is a load of bollocks. It doesn't even exist.I don't really see us competing for the league in the long run. I think City will win it by a healthy margin eventually.
This faith that people have in LVG is very very frustrating and based on the last 15 months it's unjustified. People defend LVG for things they slated Moyes for and that's not right. It all comes down to LVGs record. But as I've said before that record doesn't include any time in England!
LVG throughout his career has made huge decisions. Not always popular ones but ones he felt were right for the team. So why he continues with Rooney is beyond me. I don't think he has much option with Memphis though? With Shaw injured he's having to use Young more at full back so what choice does he have? Though I agree benching him may help. I don't agree about Mata though. He's been one of our best and most creative players this season from out wide. Sure in some games he's not as effective but he's also had some quality games out there.
So according to Mata, LVG 'hugs and kisses someone when they do things right'
http://www.espnfc.com/manchester-un...oying-life-under-louis-van-gaal-at-man-united
Think we've cracked the main reason as to why we're not playing well then!
http://www.espnfc.com/manchester-un...oying-life-under-louis-van-gaal-at-man-united
Think we've cracked the main reason as to why we're not playing well then!
Well I'd say that before Shaw was injured Memphis was doing nothing of note in the league. Young was dropped for him for no apparent reason. I'm not a big fan of Mata, I find him too slow, but playing him on the wing doesn't help him. As we all know he isn't a winger, but it seems Rooney is undroppable. If Mata remains on the wing I think a switch back to 4-3-3 with Herrera coming in to the midfield would be a good idea. Herrera and Mata interchanged brilliantly towards the end of last season.
Away to CSKA isn't easy game but still, I thought we were quite poor and uncreative- which is our biggest problem ever since van Gaal took over, IMO.
It looks like he has no idea how to use Schweinsteiger. It's incredible that player of his quality is hauled off at half time for Fellaini, I can't believe he is playing that poor just because he is in poor form or some reason that is down purely to him. We see it with Carrick too, another quality player who looks very poor this season, and I actually think he was poor last season under van Gaal too. But I can understand it with Carrick, maybe he is just past it. But there is also Herrera who van Gaal only likes when his other midfielders aren't playing well.
I think it's a matter of time when van Gaal will get in fight with Schweinsteiger.
The Rooney problem isn't even worth pointing out anymore.
For some reason Mata didn't get single minute tonight even though he is probably our most effective player this season, and was our best player in our last CL match. Baffling. But he'll start against City. Even though that makes no sense at all.
Bringing Fellaini was pointless when we ignored him all the time and didn't even try to use his abilities and continued playing similar football to the one in the first half.
I thought it was very poor game from van Gaal, some really weird decisions.
It looks like he has no idea how to use Schweinsteiger. It's incredible that player of his quality is hauled off at half time for Fellaini, I can't believe he is playing that poor just because he is in poor form or some reason that is down purely to him. We see it with Carrick too, another quality player who looks very poor this season, and I actually think he was poor last season under van Gaal too. But I can understand it with Carrick, maybe he is just past it. But there is also Herrera who van Gaal only likes when his other midfielders aren't playing well.
I think it's a matter of time when van Gaal will get in fight with Schweinsteiger.
The Rooney problem isn't even worth pointing out anymore.
For some reason Mata didn't get single minute tonight even though he is probably our most effective player this season, and was our best player in our last CL match. Baffling. But he'll start against City. Even though that makes no sense at all.
Bringing Fellaini was pointless when we ignored him all the time and didn't even try to use his abilities and continued playing similar football to the one in the first half.
I thought it was very poor game from van Gaal, some really weird decisions.
The ongoing problem of the team playing without urgency needs to be addressed and remedied.
We were very good in the 2nd half. We seemed to settle for a point in the last 5 mins which I thought was unacceptable.
Our first half issues need to be addressed. Its' a huge problem. There's no reason we couldn't up the tempo in the first half.
Really pleased with the second half. I thought we were much better. Not too fussed about not being creative, we played like this under SAF away in Europe often.
Still think his in-game management is not great. We were slow, and he brings on Fellaini? He didn't offer anything. Should have taken Rojo off much sooner, IMO.
I struggle to take what he says seriously when he plays Rooney every game without ever taking off. Clearly has his favourites.
I struggle to take what he says seriously when he plays Rooney every game without ever taking off. Clearly has his favourites.
He needs to find a way to get a fire lit in the players.
I thought Fellaini did enough to give us a platform and presence in midfield.
Re:Rooney, I agree completely.
Especially in the opening 15-20 minutes. We've established a bad habit conceding early goals. City could be out of sight by half-time.