England player and another Premier League star set to come out as gay
- Thread starter SilentWitness
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Can't tell who's joking in this thread and who isn't. The fact that several footballers will probably say "it's not me!" just shows how much shit is attached to being gay.
While you're right that it shouldn't be news, IMO it is interesting. I wonder if/how the public's opinion will change on the player, for better or worse. I personally will have huge respect for whoever comes out.
If some of the speculation in the first few pages of this thread isn't exact proof of why gay footballers remains such a big issue then I don't know what is. I previously liked to think that it isn't such a big deal about which adult is sticking their penis in another adult however some of the feverish speculation in this thread serves as proof that greater visibility of gay footballers can only be a good thing as at least it will get rid of some very bad "jokey" stereotypes.
Indeed.
It's sad that 'coming out' is even necessary let alone news worthy. But huge respect to those who do considering it apparantly still is both.
Lambs, maybe somebody coming out is actually about them, not you?
The "who cares" posts are almost as idiotic and harmful as actually abusive posts.
Like how up in your own ass and wrapped up in a bubble do you have to be not to know why a premier league footballer coming out actually matters?
It's also equally asinine to keep trouting "this is the UK, no one cares here", as if the potential effects an EPL footballer coming out is only limited to within the shores of England.
Like how up in your own ass and wrapped up in a bubble do you have to be not to know why a premier league footballer coming out actually matters?
It's also equally asinine to keep trouting "this is the UK, no one cares here", as if the potential effects an EPL footballer coming out is only limited to within the shores of England.
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This is something I wonder.
Say if Ronaldo and Messi came out, would there then be a tax on gay players like there is on English players under the assumption that they're better than they actually are?
I'm pretty much as thick-skinned as they come about this stuff (which isn't necessarily saying much.) But this is a classic response whenever anyone famous comes out that really gets my goat. 'Who cares? Who cares? Why is this even news? We don't need to know about it, why do these people expect everyone to be so interested in who they're sticking it in?' Etc, etc, etc ad fecking nauseam.
I've never encountered anyone making a comment/post like that who wasn't, in the end, just a little bit subconsciously homophobic. Not in a big way, not in a particularly bad way, but the idea of it makes you uncomfortable, so it annoys you that everyone seems to be talking about it more and more these days. To you, finding these news items irritating, it seems like gays are all over the news and the media 24/7. 'So why is it news?' You can mask it as being so very groovy with 'the gays' that you can't understand why anyone is surprised or interested, but no-one who's actually completely comfortable with it would feel the need to tell everyone to stop talking about it all the time.
Well, don't be so fecking dense. Of course it's news. There are very obviously a fair number of gay footballers out there, and every single one of them feels compelled to keep it a secret for fear of the consequences of being openly who they are. Not one high-level footballer in the UK is out. So of course it'll be news when one of them finally does it.
And it may not matter to you, a straight guy - shock horror! But believe me, when you've actually had to deal with the shit that comes from being gay even in this most-progressive of countries, it matters. These guys are cast in the popular consciousness - as daft as it is - as basically the epitome of what a man should be and might want to be, so it's a big deal when one of them is no longer so cripplingly ashamed to be like you are that they can't even admit it.
Ozil & Welbeck.
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Yeah, you seem to have taken my post the wrong way there. My fault for not explaining really.
I don't "not care" in terms of empathy for whoever this is, I just don't care who's gay and who isn't and that they are coming out. I do care that they have to even come out, I think it shouldn't be an issue like most of us. I have complete respect for whoever this is, it must be extremely hard to say the least, I genuinely meant my post as an "it shouldn't matter" thing and not a "who cares about gay people" stance.
The "who cares" posts are almost as idiotic and harmful as actually abusive posts.
Like how up in your own ass and wrapped up in a bubble do you have to be not to know why a premier league footballer coming out actually matters?
Not all of them are.
So clearly you're not being homophobic or anything like that, but you do need to give it a bit more thought. When Obama got elected, no-one was saying 'jeez, why is this news, it's been legal for a black president to be elected for years, and it shouldn't even have to be an issue, I personally don't care what his skin colour is, that's not what we should be talking about.'
Yes, in some wonderful utopia the dream scenario is that being gay genuinely wouldn't be worthy of remark. Likewise the USA wouldn't still be shockingly racist and economically segregated and no-one would give a toss what colour the president was.
But Obama was the first black president for a reason, and whichever PL footballer eventually comes out will also be the first for a reason, and it's those reasons which make those things noteworthy.
I mean, for christs sake just read the rest of this thread. I've generally found this forum to be a relatively gay-friendly place, but only a third of this thread is genuinely supportive. Another third is posts like yours, well-intentioned or otherwise: 'why do we need to hear about this, this shouldn't be news, keep it in the bedroom', and the other third is homophobic crap about Danny Welbeck's 'effeminate voice' (
) and 'it's not natural' and Rozay getting back to his old 'it's the same as having sex with an animal' tricks.
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Mate, you've totally got me wrong there. I should probably have worded my post a lot better, but I didn't expect it to be taken in such a way.
In fact, that kind of is what my post was about. I'm not uncomfortable with these stories at all, I'm uncomfortable that we have to have them to highlight an issue that really shouldn't be one. All the power and respect in the world to whoever this is, it's just a shame that hiding at all has had to be his life.
Fair enough, I can see that you were trying to say something positive, but it still suggests you've not really given it any real thought. Try and imagine what it's actually like to be gay. The internet, for example, tends to be nicely divided between people saying 'it's disgusting, it's unnatural, being gay is shameful and laughable and ridiculous' and people saying 'these gays won't get equality until they stop making such a song and dance about it, everyone's fine with it now, keep your business to the bedroom.' You just can't win.
So clearly you're not being homophobic or anything like that, but you do need to give it a bit more thought. When Obama got elected, no-one was saying 'jeez, why is this news, it's been legal for a black president to be elected for years, and it shouldn't even have to be an issue, I personally don't care what his skin colour is, that's not what we should be talking about.'
Yes, in some wonderful utopia the dream scenario is that being gay genuinely wouldn't be worthy of remark. Likewise the USA wouldn't still be shockingly racist and economically segregated and no-one would give a toss what colour the president was.
But Obama was the first black president for a reason, and whichever PL footballer eventually comes out will also be the first for a reason, and it's those reasons which make those things noteworthy.
I mean, for christs sake just read the rest of this thread. I've generally found this forum to be a relatively gay-friendly place, but only a third of this thread is genuinely supportive. Another third is posts like yours, 'why do we need to hear about this, this shouldn't be news, keep it in the bedroom', and the other third is homophobic crap about Danny Welbeck's 'effeminate voice' (
Wow. Can you stop venting for one moment?
I'm not saying keep it in the bedroom
I'm merely saying being gay shouldn't be an issue, not that I don't care about this. It's the fecking opposite! I think more gay footballers should come out, we should have more stories! I just don't think we should have to! I think each to their own, I don't care about my favourite players sexuality, I don't think anyone should. I'm not for one second saying it isn't an issue, or this isn't a brave thing to do. I'm not for one second saying I don't care about gay rights or their struggles. And what you are continuing to do right now is fall into the internet trap yourself. You've gotten angry at something that wasn't there, and despite me being patient, realising my mistake and trying to clarify my stance, you continue to try to claim you know what's actually behind my posts. For the record, it's neither of your scenarios there. Perhaps you need to think again.
Please stop now, because you are wrong. I should have thought my post out a little better, that's true. But the fact it has been taken the wrong way completely, and I've clarified it, should be enough. I actually think your stance here now kind of proving my badly made point in a way.
It's basically certain there are more than two homosexual players and not only in this, but also in any other big league (or any league for that matter). It's just how statistics work, between 1% and 2% of all men are gay and with 500 professional footballer in top divisions on average you will have some. Not coming out during your career has some ground as football fans around the world aren't always tolerant or even civilized and not everyone deals well with stick they receive from others. I don't think it's nearly as widely accepted as normal as people like to think though.
I'm just trying to get my point of view over to you. There's no need to get defensive, I'm not having a go.
Again, I'm not talking about what's behind your posts. I've fully accepted what you meant, that it was well-intentioned and maybe you didn't quite write what you meant. My point is that while what you were trying to say is right, it's still a pointless thing to say.
There's a little bit 'biggest gay in the village' about this. Sometimes when people say they don't care, they really don't care.
I've pm'd you as this seems a little crossed here my friend.
Off to the pictures thread!What if you feel the same way about straight relationships in the news too though?
The whole of celebrity culture is abhorrent. Why we as a society feel the need to put a select few on a pedestal and then care about every little individual bit of their lives 24/7 is beyond me. Obviously this is slightly different but for it to be news follows along the same lines.
I literally couldn't care less which footballer/actor/singer/whatever is doing what off the pitch/screen/microphone/etc. Does that make me homophobic?
No, of course not. But presumably you can understand why it does matter a great deal to some people? To be blunt, the reason it's a news item is because enough people care for it to be worth publishing. So no-one really gives a feck if you don't care. Just don't read it if you're not interested.
Obviously straight relationships in the news are a completely different thing. Not to go on with the Obama analogy too much, but no-one's response to Bush getting elected was 'oh my god, a white President!' Obviously that's not newsworthy in the same way.
We don't, as a whole. But the media need content, and find it convenient to blame us for the supposedly fanatical interest.
Indeed.
My badly put post wasn't a comment on the actual story, more on the fact I don't think it should be one at all. It is a story, and as long as it has to be, long may it continue. Yes it's an obvious statement to make to any sensible person, yes it's not necessarily something that should be said and yes it's not a trivial matter to be brushed off at all, but at the end of the day it's still the correct point.
Who cares what sexuality a footballer is? Or anyone else for that matter? Does anyone care what sexuality their postman is? Or the coffee shop girl? Or any of the hundreds of people you walk past every week?
I for one don't. I don't care what skin colour an American president has either whilst I'm at it. I don't care who this is, I don't care to get involved with any jokes made about it. That's not the same as saying I don't care about his struggle and I don't care about the story though. I'm not saying this thread is ridiculous because I'm trying to hide it or think it should stay in the bedroom, I'm saying it's ridiculous because there should simply be no need.
And that point should be said over and over, because clearly there is an issue on all sides where there really should be none.
But it is a big issue, especially in football, and a good way of fighting homophobia is by bringing it out of the dark. If you want the best for gay footballers then talking about how this theoretically should not be an issue wont bring any good, and can be seen as offensive by those that struggle with this issue personally every day.
When I played football I remember discussing this topic with teamm8s. Now I have gay family members and also quite a few gay friends I respect and love. So I didnt say much, tried to avoid saying things I wouldnt dare to repeat to them. At the same time I didn't want to shower with gay men either. I can understand the issue, it's not as black and white as some seem to suggest.
Totally, and I'm not saying any different. I'm not saying it should be in the dark, that's just projection on what was a very simple point.
Perhaps I should instead start making jokes and guesses about who it is. That seems the better way to go about this
It could explain why his eyes stick out so much.
It's so embarrassing and regressive whenever one of these kind of topics you get a load of people witch hunting on who's gay based on nothing more than how people look and various other stereotypes. Which I guess is exactly why its still an issue when those kind of attitudes are so pervasive. I'm sure the same kind of people will claim they're just joking, but a segment of them will be the ones doing the abusive chanting and claiming they're just joking then too.
We probably don't see it as a big deal in Manchester. We have a large gay community, an area called the gay village and are generally accepting people. Other parts of the UK however I can't speak for.
I'd like to think he wouldn't get any stick from anyone, but a lot of fans will probably be fine with it until the player dives or scores against them, then it will come out (excuse the pun). Embarrassing.
As for people suggesting Chris Smalling, he had sex with my girlfriends flatmate (a woman) a few years ago so make of that what you will. I don't want to get drawn into the speculation.
I'd like to think he wouldn't get any stick from anyone, but a lot of fans will probably be fine with it until the player dives or scores against them, then it will come out (excuse the pun). Embarrassing.
As for people suggesting Chris Smalling, he had sex with my girlfriends flatmate (a woman) a few years ago so make of that what you will. I don't want to get drawn into the speculation.
A well thought out and reasoned discussion. Well done on making you point in a calm and tolerant fashion.
I'm against someone being singled out for their sexuality and I'm the intolerant and reactionary one?
There it is.
This is part of the reason why gay footballers aren't comfortable coming out.
I showered with gay lad (we had one in high school) ....he never got a bonner the bastard
I hate this bigot word.
I would say that he is also entitled to his opinion and freedom of choice. If has a problem / discomfort with it is his right not to shower with gay men.
Obviously diacretion is advised and i guess it could be solved in a civilized manner.
The reason being uncomfortable showering with a gay man (assuming you're fine doing it with straight guys) is homophobic is because it feeds into bigoted conceptions of gay men as being somehow predatory or inappropriately sexual. Watch any sitcom where a straight character goes into a gay bar and you'll see that stereotype, or if you want to be shocked go and read a tabloid from 20-30 years ago where they were happy outright linking homosexuality to paedophilia. The extent to which its acceptable to express views like that has clearly changed, but the underlying attitudes are alive and well.
Naaaaah he's a bigot.
Why would you be uncomfortable sharing a shower with a gay man? Are you afraid he'll be looking at you, sizing you up, and will possibly approach you for sex? Objectify you in the same way other men objectify women? Or maybe you're afraid you might like it. (not you personally, just any man that feels this way)
Nobody can be forced to shower with someone, but the reason why someone would feel uncomfortable showering with a gay male is deep rooted and most don't understand why.
If you truly don't have any issues with gay men, then you should feel comfortable treating them like any other male.
Im fine with, he might be not. What so difficult to understand? Think of him as a memeber of oppressed minority...is it easier to understand him now?
Yea I always love this kind of rhetoric in those 'debates'.
'Y'all afraid that if he sucks you off you'll like it and be gay like yo'
Seriously.
Players tweeting it's not them
Reminds me of that Shearer ad, when the lads wonder if they sold him a pie..."Might be me!" "Could have been me"
Reminds me of that Shearer ad, when the lads wonder if they sold him a pie..."Might be me!" "Could have been me"