Come on I'm arguing with Glaston there.
The Spurs thread
- Thread starter GlastonSpur
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Come on I'm arguing with Glaston there.
It's incredible how much time he spends on United forum bragging about six (not five or seven, avoid) year trends and how Spurs are the biggest club in the world, being incredibly bullish and rude to such extent that people who normally liked Spurs are not particularly fond of their club anymore.
This thread is, frankly, a joke.
Spurs would also be in the semifinals of CL if they did not have to play a tough game in a powerful league every week. In fact they'd have already won the final by now, this is how great they are.
There's no guarantee of a 2nd place kicking on in the next season. Liverpool under Rodgers, Newcastle under Keegan are examples of that.
Spurs have massively fecked up their best chance of winning the league title in years. Literally all the teams will/should improve next season. The real kicker of Spurs is that despite finishing above United, Chelsea, Man City etc they still won't win the title this season.
That's gotta hurt for Spurs fans.
Spurs have massively fecked up their best chance of winning the league title in years. Literally all the teams will/should improve next season. The real kicker of Spurs is that despite finishing above United, Chelsea, Man City etc they still won't win the title this season.
That's gotta hurt for Spurs fans.
Developing a good scouting system is actually a pretty good idea.
Alderweireld was actually sold by Atletico because he wasn't good enough.
I honestly wish we lived in a world where clubs like spurs and LC could sustain long term success, but the reality of football is that the richest clubs always end up dominating any league over a long period of time, for spurs to be up there always challenging for titles year after year they'll need to match the financial strength of their competition, good planning won't work long term cause you'll always end up with players looking for better wages.
Are they at a point where they could significantly improve their wage budget, i honestly don't know, but that's the key to long term success.
Are they at a point where they could significantly improve their wage budget, i honestly don't know, but that's the key to long term success.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the big clubs have done poorly. That is why most of the manager have/will lose their jobs (Jose,Pellegrini and hopefully Van Gaal)
It's just that for a long time we've thought that the reason that Arsenal and Spurs couldn't win the big prizes was simply because they were better sides ahead of them. with those struggling but and Arsenal and Spurs still failing,it points to the mental fragility of both teams.
Even if this was true which it isn't, so what?
Clearly Atletico have had the best defence in La Liga and probably Europe for a number of years, so does not becoming a regular in that defence in just one season reflect badly on a player?
Which PL club has good enough CB's that Alderweireld wouldn't be a regular starter for them?
I can see the argument with 'always fourth' Arsenal but is it really mental fragility to finish second behind a rampant Leicester? Spurs have amassed a credible points haul this season, and had Leicester not had a wonder (maybe freak) season they would have been champions.
WhoDaGOAT said: ↑
Really?
Griezmann = Kane
Koke = Eriksen
Carrasco = Lamela
Juanfran = Walker
Oliver < Ali
Gabi < Dembélé
Godín > Alderweireld
Luís > Rose
Giménez < Vertonghen (For now)
Oblak < Lloris
Dier = Saúl
Torres > Njie
Atlético have more depth in the striking department, but both are similar in terms of overall quality.
Juanfran and Walker being a tie makes me ready to nod as I read a goddamned thinkpiece by a fullback about how non-fullbacks shouldn't critique fullback play.
Gimenez being worse than Vertonghen is also nonsense.
Really?
Griezmann = Kane
Koke = Eriksen
Carrasco = Lamela
Juanfran = Walker
Oliver < Ali
Gabi < Dembélé
Godín > Alderweireld
Luís > Rose
Giménez < Vertonghen (For now)
Oblak < Lloris
Dier = Saúl
Torres > Njie
Atlético have more depth in the striking department, but both are similar in terms of overall quality.
Just seen this
Juanfran and Walker being a tie makes me ready to nod as I read a goddamned thinkpiece by a fullback about how non-fullbacks shouldn't critique fullback play.
Gimenez being worse than Vertonghen is also nonsense.
No, they haven't amassed anything. Their points tally has never been enough to win the league.
Yep, their total points tally wouldn't have put them in the title race in pretty much any of the past 10 seasons.
I think you guys are trying to use other clubs to paper over the cracks of your own.
If Spurs and Arsenal are so mentally fragile and looking back through this thread and others both have such average players, then it's unbelievably damning for others that 2 mentally weak clubs with average players, plus Leicester are likely to finish in the top 4.
Whilst both will end up disappointed others should feel more than disappointed, even embarrassed that even after spending huge amounts of money and paying the highest Salaries these 3 nothing, mentally weak clubs are currently better than they are.
It's a very poor reflection of what they have become, no wonder some of their fans are trying to hide behind others, it's easier than facing up to their own failings.
A club can bounce back in one season, it's very possible, it's also possible that a club can throw further huge sums at the problem, recruit a new manager and still not improve. Huge sums and salaries can be spent on players and they can end up looking like they should be playing pub football, as an example I'm not actually convinced that Radamel Falcao would get into every pub side in the country, he's complete garbage. Still even after being garbage at Utd for a year, a year costing circa £20m a certain footballing guru and club thought he was still so good that he would recruit him for another £10m+ next year with an option to buy for £30m+, unable to see what a liability the player had become.
More money, new managers, new players etc etc do not guarantee that a club will turn around its problems and make any improvement let alone considerable improvement. By the same token a top 4,3,2 or even title guarantees you nothing for the following season, apart from maybe a better starting base.
As for Spurs I think everybody who is connected with or supports the club knows that we have to work unbelievably hard in all areas to make improvements to the club to try and keep pushing the club forward. I get the impression there's an awful lot of fans of others who have been pretty ordinary that they need to do little more than recruit a new manager and spend huge amounts of money on new players and as a result of that the magic dust will be sprinkled again, there's a good chance that it will, there's also a good chance that it won't and that the current malaise could continue.
The PL is at a very interesting stage in time, I read it has been 26 years for Liverpool, it could become 26 years for others too as there isn't no top 4 as such anymore, it's game on. Money will help but clubs are going to need an awful lot more than just the biggest budget.
Not in previous seasons, but this isn't a normal season. They are on target for 74-75 points and that wouldn't have been enough for 2nd either in the last few years, yet there they are.
They already have 69, they will get around 73-76. Still not enough for title race in a normal season and even now they are 7 points behind Leicester.
Comparing points across seasons is pointless.
They are on 69, say they get 75. That's always been around 2nd-3rd place. Winning the title requires 80 plus.
Don't get me wrong, they are a good team and good to watch as well but their failure to win the title isn't bad luck, they simply didn't put enough points on the table.
Quite, the points tally from previous seasons is a completely irrelevant argument. Everybody starts on 0 and all that matters is where your points total that season leaves you.
If a club got 92 points last season it won't make them champions this season, it's so irrelevant I'm at a loss as to why people even talk about it.
Yeah, it isn't a great indicator but even in a competitive season like this, you need atleast 80 points to win the title 9 times out of 10 as some other club will. They haven't. My post was more in response to Akshay saying they have amassed a points total which should win them the league, it simply isn't true.
The title requires more points than the 2nd place team, or the same with a better GD, it doesn't require a hard n fast number, especially in a league that's changing. Spurs may finish 2nd this year on say 72 points, therefore it would have required 73 to win it.
Totally, better to compare apples with oranges as it has more relevance.
Thanks for stating the obvious. My point was, 9 times out of 10, you will need 80 points to win the title even in a competitive season as 1 team gets there. Leicester have this season while Spurs haven't. Getting about 75 points in a season isn't "amassing" anything and certainly not a tally that should win you the league most seasons.
My bad regarding the numbers, fixed it but you guys had quoted me already
. 75 hasn't been enough for 2nd though Varun, being a bit pedantic but the last time that was true was 2011. I'm not saying it's bad luck, but I don't think it's mental fragility either. Leicester were simply the best team this season.I don't think it's mental fragility either. Its not as if Spurs are used to title run in and ballsed it up. They've lost the title to the best team in the league, nothing wrong in it. I was a bit pedantic too in my initial post, just disagreed with the amassing points bit.My bad regarding the numbers, fixed it but you guys had quoted me already
Spurs' maximum possible total, should they win through, would be 78pts. That's not even good enough for 2nd place in most of the past decade.
I really don't think anyone but other London club supporters has anything against Spurs becoming a contender, should that materialise, but the way Glaston acts, so bullish and full of pronouncement, belies reality, factually, as what Spurs have done in a dire season for the league as a whole isn't actually impressive in the grand scheme of what championship challenging sides normally do.
Practically everyone expects a massive improvement from a number of clubs next season, and that means Spurs will have to be a hell of a lot better than they currently are to even 'challenge' for 2nd place, let alone the league. These are the 'fachts'.
Sorry but getting 75 points in a season is 'amassing' 75 points, where those 75 points gets you depends on everybody else. This season likely enough to win the league, it could be enough next season as well, or you may need 90, there are no rules.
Amassing is normally used for something that's accumulated in large numbers, 75 points isn't that.
It's precisely that if it's more than anybody else has.
It isn't what amassing means and even if it did, it isnt more than what anybody else has in this case.
Hmm I'd expect an improvement from Chelsea (they could hardly do worse) and Liverpool because of Klopp, but it's difficult to say for the rest. United's improvement will depend on whether there's a change in coaching and who comes in, Pep's first season in the PL, and Arsenal proving they will always be Arsenal. It'll be tough for Spurs to get 2nd again, of course, they're not an established top of the league club, but you could see why a Spurs fan would be optimistic and hopeful of them getting there. I haven't read the thread so no idea what Glaston's been saying.
For Leicester it is more than anybody else, likely enough to have won the league.
There is only one rule for the number of points you need to win the league, and that's more than anybody else after 38 games in that season. Everything else is irrelevant.
No one disputes Leceister being the best team this season and Totenham has had an wonderful season. I and some at one time hoped Spurs to win to rub it onto Arsenal misery. Came in to cheer up the mood after the poor result. However, then Spurs fans called out on United and started the cockiness that Spurs surely improve with that weird trend (noone can tell) and big clubs have decline trend.
The argument is this's a freak season, and this is not the true level big clubs usually showed. So in a normal season, points tally normally higher, the gap between top 4 place (even top place and runner up) is closer. The competition next season would likely be raised and most the big clubs likely return to normal level. Spurs improvement trend doesn't show anything they can improve and past that normal level.
Spurs can offer a CL place, have a positive young team and manager; but the lack of winning perigee still a hindrance for them to acquire top players. Some big clubs missed out, however if they show enough ambition with the new manager project, they still have bigger pull power than Spurs. And Spurs can't compete with big clubs' finance backed by sugar daddies/ established infrastructure. Big players would want Cl football being guaranteed for a number of years, not once in a while and relies on some improvement trend that coincides with a freak season that Leicester wins it!
Nothing is set in stone, but it's unwise to say Chelsea and City, Liverpool, United have a decline/ stagnating trend, while Spurs has improve trend which based on "average league position" of the last 3 years/6 years; coming off a freak season. Benitez's Liverpool had a more defined improving trend over the his time there and put up a good title race before collapsed in his last season. They had players that could be classed as world class and Benitez has winning CV (actual won something before and with Liverpool).
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Well, in whatever combination it comes, there's likely to be a serious improvement in a number of clubs. Arsenal are about the only side with enough of a... trend (
)... for us to say they'll repeat on themselves like they always do under Wenger. There's potential for a large pts swing in underperforming top clubs, which can't be ignored
I don't begrudge optimism, but there's a need for context, which tends to be absent in Glaston's posts, or should we say he has a problem with selectivity with what he posts.
Why do you keep repeating this as if you've unearthed a gem of wisdom?
You're the worst club in England. You play Europa league every season and use it as training ground, always calculating how that will impact your performances in EPL, but you still can't win the EPL and you make it into CL once in 3 years.
When Bilic decided to ditch EL in order to focus on the league campaign, that actually made sense to me, but Spurs are supposed to be level above West Ham and if you are, then compete for the Europa League and actually try to create some history and real success for yourself.
You need some perspective man, you need to understand that finishing top 4 in England means nothing to an average football fan living somewhere else.
The only thing snobbish in this discussion is Spurs and their fans like you, acting as if you actually represent something in the football world, as if Europa league isn't good enough for you, even if you rarely manage to qualify for the competition that you are actually aiming for.
How about you try to take it step by step. It was good enough for Dortmund, and if Liverpool go on to win it, who will have the better season, you or them? Think about it and think about how you set up and played Dortmund.
Leicester is the only one 'EVERYTHING CLUB' nowadays in the UK
Is that not exactly what Spurs fans have been doing? Utd fans aren't hiding from the fact we've been shite. Quite the opposite. I've only seen Spurs fans seeking solace in the fact you've been better than others who have been awful. Or pointing at trends to make them feel better about not winning the league with their best chance at it in half a century. Others are only pointing out it's unlikely that a team like Leicester will be the main competition next season and for that reason it's not going to get any easier for Spurs.