Pre-season tour 2016-17

the hea said:
Keane ahead of Wilson is kind of surprising.
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It really shouldn't be. Wilson is highly rated for being a speed merchant. Nothing to his game other than speed.

In other news why is ibra not included in the tour. Surely if he wants to be first over rooney he should at least try and prove it.
Sidenote- I know he is much better than rooney but still he shouldn't be an exception. Sweden were knocked out early so how much holiday does he need?
 
Gutted that Varela hasn't gone. It's really annoyed me, that. There's no need at all for 3 GKs, especially when I doubt 2 of them will get 10 appearances combined this year. Then there's McNair, Rojo and Tuanzebe going ahead of him just to rub salt into the wound.
 
kenny19 said:
It really shouldn't be. Wilson is highly rated for being a speed merchant. Nothing to his game other than speed.

In other news why is ibra not included in the tour. Surely if he wants to be first over rooney he should at least try and prove it.
Sidenote- I know he is much better than rooney but still he shouldn't be an exception. Sweden were knocked out early so how much holiday does he need?
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Ibrahimovic was given extended time off by Mourinho. Not sure why because he had his 3 weeks of vacation, but might be a deal with Mourinho. They know each other quite well so I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a favour towards him, since he knows Ibrahimovic will be ready, and put in the work once the seasons has started.
 
kenny19 said:
It really shouldn't be. Wilson is highly rated for being a speed merchant. Nothing to his game other than speed.

In other news why is ibra not included in the tour. Surely if he wants to be first over rooney he should at least try and prove it.
Sidenote- I know he is much better than rooney but still he shouldn't be an exception. Sweden were knocked out early so how much holiday does he need?
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Rooney won't be playing. Wayne, Chris and Marcus are only there to train. If Zlatan went he wouldn't play either. Maybe it says more about the shape Wayne gets himself into compared to Zlatan. I am more surpised Morgan hasn't cut his holiday short as he didn't play a second at the euros and it is giving others the chance to impress. You would hope he offered but Jose told him to get the rest.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Blackett and Varela are probably to be sold, and Wilson looks like he's going straight back out on loan. Definitely not in Mourinho's thoughts.
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Looks that way.

Given that Mourinho has already said Rooney and Rashford won't play I wonder who is he planning on using as a forward for the friendlies. It seems unlikely that Keane will play every minute so maybe someone like Januzaj or Memphis will be asked to play there.
 
Yagami said:
Gutted that Varela hasn't gone. It's really annoyed me, that. There's no need at all for 3 GKs, especially when I doubt 2 of them will get 10 appearances combined this year. Then there's McNair, Rojo and Tuanzebe going ahead of him just to rub salt into the wound.
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Why? He's nothing special at all.
 
Only seems to be a couple of out and out centre mids taken, Pereira should get more chances to shine there which is great news.
I'm pleased Keane has been taken as well because I think hes a very talented player, he may be a bit older now, but when injuries have hampered him it's only fair we give him more time. He'll probably be quite rightfully behind Rashford and Ibrahimovic next season, but he could still definitely contribute given Ibras age and Rashfords age.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
They all need rest. Besides I think there is a limit on no of players whom we should be taking for a 2 match tour.
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Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Though Zlatan getting so much holiday time is weird. Rooney and co were in France longer than Sweden.
 
Ijazz17 said:
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Though Zlatan getting so much holiday time is weird. Rooney and co were in France longer than Sweden.
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Nobody tell Zlatan what to do, when to do, when to train, how to train etc. Zlatan does what Zlatan wants to do... :D
 
De Gea
Valencia - Bailly - Smalling - Shaw
Carrick - Periera
Mkhitaryan - Mata - Memphis
Rashford​

Would like to see that against Dortmund.
 
Yagami said:
I believe he could have become a very good player for us.
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It's opinion matter, but I would like to point out that Valera is bang average. Flashy and have some productivity in attack. His defense game is average. Not effective man marking nor good anticipating to cut off the attack early nor good at recovery/ last ditch defense. Tactical intelligence and discipline are questionable. Even in his better game, there are holes around his defensive zone (for example: the Arsenal games where an out of form Sanchez was able to occupy him enough and let Montreal exploit the gap). He's not particular young compare to the wave of younger talented defenders coming up from our academy. The game time should better benefit these younger lads. Valera hasn't improve much (if at all) as far as I've seen him since his arrival. There is no telling he can improve much more at this rate, since his strong points are not our priority while his weaknesses are way below than the standard we should aim at (please don't compare to our current supposed main RB as they're not the ideal benchmark. The standard should not lie with them)

Shame for CBJ though. Couldn't make it in time for the early training and now left behind while McNair and Rojo have the chance to be assessed.
 
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Not good for Wilson and Varela but hardly unexpected. I thought Schneiderlin might go as I don't think he kicked a ball at the Euros. The lack of CM's should give Pereira a shot at a decent chunk of game time.
 
suheilsworld said:
My bad. Did not know that. Hope he gets a run in or he is fit by Jan transfer window. Looks a tidy player that needs games under his belt
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Anyway it's just a minimal effort to please sponsors and sell shirts.
Pointless from a footballing point of view. All of the players who made it to the QF stage of the Euro are still on their break. Darmain,Schneiderlin,Martial and Schweinsteiger.
 
Bwuk said:
De Gea
Valencia - Bailly - Smalling - Shaw
Carrick - Periera
Mkhitaryan - Mata - Memphis
Rashford​

Would like to see that against Dortmund.
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I'm sure I read none of the English lads who played at the euros would be playing either of these two matches, might be wrong though.
 
Dec9003 said:
I'm sure I read none of the English lads who played at the euros would be playing either of these two matches, might be wrong though.
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I thought that too. probably just there for the publicity value.
 
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parisite said:
I thought that too. probably just their for the publicity value.
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Yeah it wouldn't shock me if Rashford plays, though. He's only had half a season and barely kicked a ball at the euros.
Wouldn't even surprise me if Rooney plays because he'll be worried about his place.
 
ti vu said:
It's opinion matter, but I would like to point out that Valera is bang average. Flashy and have some productivity in attack. His defense game is average. Not effective man marking nor good anticipating to cut off the attack early nor good at recovery/ last ditch defense. Tactical intelligence and discipline are questionable. Even in his better game, there are holes around his defensive zone (for example: the Arsenal games where an out of Sanchez was able to occupy him enough and let Montreal exploit the gap). He's not particular young compare to the wave of younger talented defenders that coming up. Valera hasn't improve much (if at all) as I've seen him when him first arrived. There is no telling he can improve much more at this rate, since his strong points are not our priority while his weaknesses are way below than the standard we should aim at.

Shame for CBJ though. Couldn't make it in time for the early training and now left behind while McNair and Rojo have the chance to be assessed.
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I think you're underrating both sides of his game personally. "..some productivity in attack" ? Our right hand side, when it consisted of Lingard, Mata, Valencia and Darmian went from offering no threat at all and us having to rely on Martial on the left every game to a lot of our most threatening attacks coming from Varela's excellent build-up play and crossing down the right. It was like night and day when he was starting.

Regarding his defending, I think he's a very good defender. I've seen him show great positional awareness and reading of the game since being promoted to the 1st team. There's been a few times where Valencia and Darmian haven't stayed with the defensive line and kept opposition players onside, whereas Varela was very good in keeping a good back line. It also seemed to me that van Gaal instructed Varela to man mark the oppositions biggest threat a lot of the time. Against Liverpool(away), West Ham and Arsenal he was following Coutinho, Payet and Sanchez all over the pitch. There's no way he would've been following them as closely as he did if he weren't instructed to. I think that's where this opinion of him being poor defensively has come from but, to me, he was just following instructions. Of course, if it was him just getting too sucked into the game and forgetting his defensive duties then I'd take that back but I don't think he's that poor defensively.

Personally, I was hoping to see more of him in midfield rather than at RB as he has very good technique and isn't afraid to get stuck in, so I wasn't just clamouring for him to be our automatic RB; it was moreso a clamouring for giving him a chance in general.
 
Wilson not participating can mean he's a loan deal already sorted so it's waste of space and time for him to play him, if we are not counting with him long term, I don't care much, he had quite a lot of chances to impress and failed almost on every single occassion. Will Keane nomination is justified. He scored and played pretty well, good hold up play. If there is no other striker coming in, I believe that Zlatan - 34, Rashford - 18 Rooney - 30 Martial - 20 and Keane - 23 is decent set of striker, considering we play only one up front, Martial and Rooney only as covers for a striker, so the 5th/3rd striker will feature very little anyway... and it's well balance in terms of age and of course nobody wants to see the shit displays by which Wilson presented himself when he gets a chance, Keane is experienced enough to put in a good performance even after a long time out..

Varela is unfortunately off, he's perhaps too short and week for Mou, despite being nice aggressive fullback in Rafael mould, he lacks experience for Mou, eventhough I htink if he got a dozen of games he could easily outperform the Italian flop and 6/10 Valencia.. We have zilion options to midfield and there might be Pogba coming in, so there is no reason to keep him.. quite sad
 
Wilson? Speed merchant? :lol::lol: This was never going to his season at United anyway but I hope he goes away for the season and comes back firing nect summer.
 
Yagami said:
I think you're underrating both sides of his game personally. "..some productivity in attack" ? Our right hand side, when it consisted of Lingard, Mata, Valencia and Darmian went from offering no threat at all and us having to rely on Martial on the left every game to a lot of our most threatening attacks coming from Varela's excellent build-up play and crossing down the right. It was like night and day when he was starting.

Regarding his defending, I think he's a very good defender. I've seen him show great positional awareness and reading of the game since being promoted to the 1st team. There's been a few times where Valencia and Darmian haven't stayed with the defensive line and kept opposition players onside, whereas Varela was very good in keeping a good back line. It also seemed to me that van Gaal instructed Varela to man mark the oppositions biggest threat a lot of the time. Against Liverpool(away), West Ham and Arsenal he was following Coutinho, Payet and Sanchez all over the pitch. There's no way he would've been following them as closely as he did if he weren't instructed to. I think that's where this opinion of him being poor defensively has come from but, to me, he was just following instructions. Of course, if it was him just getting too sucked into the game and forgetting his defensive duties then I'd take that back but I don't think he's that poor defensively.

Personally, I was hoping to see more of him in midfield rather than at RB as he has very good technique and isn't afraid to get stuck in, so I wasn't just clamouring for him to be our automatic RB; it was moreso a clamouring for giving him a chance in general.
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Let's agree to disagree on each other's opinion then. You compare underwhelming players then draw the conclusion. We just signed Mkhitaryan to strengthen the attacking on the right side. It's LVG's fault for the problem we had last season, not that Varela emerged as a good one. LVG sold Nani who can contribute. I already discounted Di Maria who his coming and departure was a mess from LVG. Instead of going for Di Maria, we could have gone for Alexis Sanchez in that summer, but who knows why LVG agreed on Di Maria who never fit his profile while Di Maria just had a great season as a central midfielder (if one considers LVG's past players). Martial deal was unexpected success, not some well pre planned. If Martial didn't hit the ground running, then by now you can say similar about how Rojo is one of our better productive player on the left wing like Valera. The hard cold truth is this standard is not good enough. We saw better from Wes Brown, Rafael, Gary Neville, even makeshift Hagreaves. O'Shea is not high standard in attacking but he is decent while his defending side is way superior.

You just prove my point. There is a line separate good defensive players from the average: anticipation, tactical intelligence. Good players will know when loosen up the man marking and keep a good defensive shape. If Valera is the following the instruction type of guy then he's definitely an average player all around. There is none exceptional aspect in his game. Valencia has great stamina, strong and good in duel. Darmian may be dire but in tighter game, he showed good level of tactical intelligence. Again, you compare to Valencia who is not natural RB and Darmian who having his first season in PL. This should not be the benchmark for a title challenging team. Valera had quite a bunches of keeping the opponent in play too.

Please no with playing him in midfield. TFM, Pereira may need game time there. They're younger and were known to be more natural midfielders. We're chasing Pogba to add to our midfield, there is no point to play an average RB there. Even McNair should have the chance to play in his natural position before Valera at this rate.
 
kenny19 said:
It really shouldn't be. Wilson is highly rated for being a speed merchant. Nothing to his game other than speed.

In other news why is ibra not included in the tour. Surely if he wants to be first over rooney he should at least try and prove it.
Sidenote- I know he is much better than rooney but still he shouldn't be an exception. Sweden were knocked out early so how much holiday does he need?
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Lies.
 
ti vu said:
Let's agree to disagree on each other's opinion then. You compare underwhelming players then draw the conclusion. We just signed Mkhitaryan to strengthen the attacking on the right side. It's LVG's fault for the problem we had last season, not that Varela emerged as a good one. LVG sold Nani who can contribute. I already discounted Di Maria who his coming and departure was a mess from LVG. Instead of going for Di Maria, we could have gone for Alexis Sanchez in that summer, but who knows why LVG agreed on Di Maria who never fit his profile while Di Maria just had a great season as a central midfielder (if one considers LVG's past players). Martial deal was unexpected success, not some well pre planned. If Martial didn't hit the ground running, then by now you can say similar about how Rojo is one of our better productive player on the left wing like Valera. The hard cold truth is this standard is not good enough. We saw better from Wes Brown, Rafael, Gary Neville, even makeshift Hagreaves. O'Shea is not high standard in attacking but he is decent while his defending side is way superior.

You just prove my point. There is a line separate good defensive players from the average: anticipation, tactical intelligence. Good players will know when loosen up the man marking and keep a good defensive shape. If Valera is the following the instruction type of guy then he's definitely an average player all around. There is none exceptional aspect in his game. Valencia has great stamina, strong and good in duel. Darmian may be dire but in tighter game, he showed good level of tactical intelligence. Again, you compare to Valencia who is not natural RB and Darmian who having his first season in PL. This should not be the benchmark for a title challenging team. Valera had quite a bunches of keeping the opponent in play too.

Please no with playing him in midfield. TFM, Pereira may need game time there. They're younger and were known to be more natural midfielders. We're chasing Pogba to add to our midfield, there is no point to play an average RB there. Even McNair should have the chance to play in his natural position before Valera at this rate.
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I agree and disagree with certain points you've made there but I think you're right when you say we should just agree to disagree as we're not going to change each others mind regarding the guys ability. Though there are a few other things you brought up that I'll discuss.

I think it's very harsh to draw conclusions on how good or bad he is based on his limited appearances last season. I'm not saying he can be as good as a Neville, a Brown, or even a Rafael, but I'm not saying he can't be either. It's too early to tell. He was thrown in at the deep end and didn't look out of place in a team devoid of all confidence and belief often being, in my opinion, a standout player. To me, that's what made me warm to him so much. Also, to say he's an average defender because he followed his coaches instructions isn't fair because we all know how van Gaal was. If Varela hadn't followed his instructions to a tee he'd have been dropped in a heartbeat as there seemed to be little to no freedom for the players to work with.

Regarding the bit about Rojo, I have to completely disagree. If we hadn't signed Martial, and with no Shaw, the left side would've been as useless as the right. Rojo just hasn't shown anything to say he could've carried a threat down the left on his own like Varela did when he became a starter for us. CBJ on the other hand came in and took like a duck to water on the left; much like Varela did on the right. So I'd understand making a case for him, but not Rojo.

About the playing him in midfield part, I know I'm in the big minority, but I just have a feeling he'd be a good player there despite not originally being one by trade, so I don't expect you or most people for that matter to agree with me on this :D
 
Since English Euro players won't play, we are light on strikers for the tour, putting it mildly.
 
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