Moyes, easy. He hadn't a damn clue. And he's been shown up since, big time.
Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?
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As other said it cost LVG his job and Moyes did the same. You know what Moyes did worse? He was in a strong position to rid Rooney, but decided to give Rooney this fat contract and this kind of status in the team with no merit (in regard to SAF's final season)
I think LVG did it worse. A lot was expected from him. Moyes was just inept and clueless. Not your fault if you just dont understand things.
LVG was a complete fraud and his constant belief that he was better than us mortals, made me loath the man. Moyes was simply given a job far to big for him.
Moyes was worse.
LVG was more disappointing
LVG was more disappointing
The correct answer as the poll overwhelmingly shows is Moyes. It shouldn't even be debatable, 2 wins against the top half of the league in an entire season. Nothing more needs to be said really.
How exactly does a complete fraud win major trophies at all 5 clubs he's managed in 4 different countries?
How exactly does a complete fraud win major trophies at all 5 clubs he's managed in 4 different countries?
VG introduced us and promoted Marcus Rashford, won us an FA cup, atleast made it to the CL, and was always top of the league when it came to beating our top rivals
Moyes gives rooney a fat contract upping his paygrade, which we still paying for, signs fellaini, humiliated time after time by our rivals, took the defending champions to 7th, sacked fergie's backroom staff, and to sum it up we should aspire to be at man city's level
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If VG's legacy is promoting the future of united in rashford, it will go down has one of the most important decisions any manager has ever made. We talk about promoting youth, VG's decision to see rashford promoted, could go down has a key decision, because this boy is gold. Yes VG's reign was disappointing to borderlines frustrating and anger, but we cannot overlook VG's bold decision making giving rashford such responsibility, he threw him into a manchester derby away and payed VG's trust in youth, that for me cannot be overlooked
Moyes gives rooney a fat contract upping his paygrade, which we still paying for, signs fellaini, humiliated time after time by our rivals, took the defending champions to 7th, sacked fergie's backroom staff, and to sum it up we should aspire to be at man city's level
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If VG's legacy is promoting the future of united in rashford, it will go down has one of the most important decisions any manager has ever made. We talk about promoting youth, VG's decision to see rashford promoted, could go down has a key decision, because this boy is gold. Yes VG's reign was disappointing to borderlines frustrating and anger, but we cannot overlook VG's bold decision making giving rashford such responsibility, he threw him into a manchester derby away and payed VG's trust in youth, that for me cannot be overlooked
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who do you think you're fooling? Moyes signed Fellaini, Mata (and Herrera and Shaw was his signings originally). Van Gaal has blessed us with Rojo, scweinstiegier, falcao, di maria. Van Gaal destroyed this team really, really bad.
It's interesting! IF you believe Shaw and Herrera were already club targets, then right now none of LvGs signings are playing.. Martial obviously will, but that's it really. Mata and Fellaini seem better signings with each passing game!
It's no wonder we're a shambles, when we essentially only signed 3 starters in 3 seasons!!
Still, hard to decide who's worse.. Moyes had an impossible job - he was never going to be given time or patience. I still feel if he'd been given LvGs time we would be in a better position now, but only in a world where the fans and media were willing to give him time. LvG won us a trophy, and I liked the guy. He wins, just.
Van Gaal had the right idea bringing in the likes of Di Maria and Falcao but his methods were so outdated and rigid that attacking players like this were practically doomed from the word go. Also it's a little baffling that he worked with the likes of Stefan De Vrij, Martins Indi at the Brazil world cup in 2014 when we badly needed a central defender yet opted to buy Rojo instead.......Wijnaldum is another you'd think he would have taken a punt on .......Van Gaal apparently was crazy to sign Sadio Mane had he pipped Man City to 4th last season meaning another season in the job but you can't help but think that his rigid style would have stifled an attacking player like that where Mane's goal threat and confidence would have dried up very quickly. Van Gaals main weakness' is that his personality is not big enough for the biggest teams and his tactics were 20 years out of date. At Ajax/Bayern and Barca he managed teams that were so much better than the rest of the pack that Donald Duck could have been in charge and they still would have cruised to the league titles. Ronny Deila winning the last few SPL titles with Celtic is proof of that......But Van Gaal did some good things and his methods really only suit International football where his teams are so defensively compact that they can nick a win against the likes of Brazil or Argentina if they take the one chance they will get in the game.
Moyes is an ultra cautious manager who's methods only really suit teams like Sunderland/Burnley/Bournemouth where the teams defend like crazy and then try to nick a win against a bigger team on a quick counter where the winger quickly gets the pass from defense before whipping it with urgency into the box to a header specialist like Tim Cahill or Fellaini. Moyes would be a decent International manager for a country who is often the underdog with inferior players such as Scotland/Ireland.....
I definitely feel Moyes was more out of his depth between the two. Both were equally poor in the transfer market which has set us back a few years......But Van Gaal definitely wins over Moyes due to results in big games and his attempt to reinvigorate the team with youth and trying to develop Smalling/Rashford/Lingard/Fosu Mensah/Martial/Memphis...but neither manager should ever have been at Utd and when you see the Klopp effect at Liverpool then you realize that the clubs who do all they can to get the best proven world class managers while giving them time to build (unlike Chelsea/Real) more often than not achieve their full squad potential
Moyes is an ultra cautious manager who's methods only really suit teams like Sunderland/Burnley/Bournemouth where the teams defend like crazy and then try to nick a win against a bigger team on a quick counter where the winger quickly gets the pass from defense before whipping it with urgency into the box to a header specialist like Tim Cahill or Fellaini. Moyes would be a decent International manager for a country who is often the underdog with inferior players such as Scotland/Ireland.....
I definitely feel Moyes was more out of his depth between the two. Both were equally poor in the transfer market which has set us back a few years......But Van Gaal definitely wins over Moyes due to results in big games and his attempt to reinvigorate the team with youth and trying to develop Smalling/Rashford/Lingard/Fosu Mensah/Martial/Memphis...but neither manager should ever have been at Utd and when you see the Klopp effect at Liverpool then you realize that the clubs who do all they can to get the best proven world class managers while giving them time to build (unlike Chelsea/Real) more often than not achieve their full squad potential
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...der-Herrera-as-Manchester-United-targets.html
Shaw and Herrera were targets from Fergusons reign, Moyes didn't want to sign Herrera in 2013 lets not forget. Neither were anything to do with Moyes as they were signed after he was sacked they were long term club targets. And for that matter i doubt he went to the board and asked to sign Mata either. He was offered to the club and Moyes obviously said yes, Mata hasn't exactly set the world alight in his time at United. The one and only true Moyes signing has been Fellaini who for me over his entire 3 years has been an average signing considering his fee.
Van Gaal did oversee very poor squad management though i agree with you there. Too many players needlessly sold for buttons and expensively replaced with inferior players.
Even at VG's worst we finished 5th and introduced us to rashford, and won an FA cup, its mediocre but its not a catastrophy, by fergie's standards it is a disaster, but the goal posts have been moved so much it was no surprise as we saw previously under Moyes, its just extending the mediocrety going on at the club. Moyes sacked fergie's backroom staff, give rooney a new contract, signed fellaini, humiliated by our rivals every game, also we had allot of our rivals numbers under VG, so there was some good that came from VG, more bad than good but enough light to say he was not has bad has Moyes. Moyes was so bad he could not even get through the entire season, he had the defending PL champions and turned them into a midtable joke. There is a difference between disappointment and damn right disastrous, Moyes was the latter, now if we going by very very high standards both were a disaster, Moyes was a catastrophe. VG deserved to go, but lets not make out we were utterly destroyed, the damage Moyes done to this club has been so bad its set us back a few years, and we still got those traits
Lets not make out he signed shaw and herrera here, his only signings were fellaini and mata, and the latter I would say is united quality, its a mystery how fellaini is still here
LvG was pretty shocking at times but Moyes was worse.
And ironically Fellaini was useless under Moyes. LVG was the one who gave life back to his United career.
Regarding Shaw, Moyes was well known chasing Baines. If that materialized, I have my reservation whether we went for Shaw.
LVG doesn't rate Nani and had him loaned and sold, but it was under Moyes, Nani had his contract renewed with long term and didn't play for most part. So Moyes' the culprit of we losing more money for Nani.
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I would agree, letting VP go, no need to sign falcao or bastian, Di Maria could not get to grips with VG's bizarre tactics, and the 5-3 leicester defeat probably sealed VG's fate has united manager. But? VG goes into the job having to take over a united team very much with rooney looking a shadow of his former self, who had a big influence on the dressing room which is a huge headache that he had that new contract, when the fergie plan was to move him on. But? VG who decides rooney must start every game, even though his form was poor at best. VG's doom was sealed after that Leicester game, and lost all confidence in the players allowed to play with freedom, and we played a very conservative approach, with the odd 3 game spell where he got the balance right, but decided to rip that apart and start all over again
I think Shaw and Herrera were long term club targets that Woodward would have signed even if Moyes had stayed, i doubt he wanted to play Moyes dithering game wait around until deadline day again for a second year in a row. If i remember correctly both were signed at the end of June.
I meant if we had Baines under Moyes, then we ain't unlikely spending that much for Shaw (we would still monitor him but that's it) at that time. So it's a myth Herrera and Shaw was Moyes' transfer.
After all the manager has the final say in accepting a player into his squad. We didn't get Herrera in 2013 summer due to Moyes didn't give the green light till too late.
This shouldn't even be a contest given the time, money and shite football involved, as much as I dispose Moyes Louis Van Bullshit was a complete joke who thought he was a genius and played the most dire football imaginable while spending a quarter of a billion pounds and was saved stats wise by having to rely on a new player or few( Rashford) which was pure luck and nothing to do with him deciding to put him in the team.
The bloke was a complete fraud and bullshitter who believed in his own bs far too much who shouldn't have been out of his depth but was due to him thinking he knew better than everyone else.
Moyes on the other hand was ridiculously negative and haphazard in his tactics and was out of his depth.
Thats a myth mate.
As for Van Gaal's squad management. Well he sold Rafael, Nani and Evans for around £10m and replaced them with Darmian, Depay and Rojo who cost £12m, £28m and £16m (+£4m for Nani's loan wages to secure the deal) so £60m on 3 inferior players great business that was.
I like Van Gaal i do but it has to be said he spent a shit load of money something like £250m to assemble an average squad. While letting some good players leave for buttons.
Oh yeah i agree had we signed Baines no chance we would have went in big for Shaw just a year later, he would have most likely ended up at Chelsea.
No one can deny fergie wanted rooney gone, but rooney got a new contract. No question if fergie stayed rooney would have been sold, it would have been a 10 year anniversary when fergie sold beckham in 2003, seems fitting 10 years on fergie sells another huge england star of that same ilk where that star has a hell of allot of the spotlight which is distracting.
That seems to have happened allot with united over the years, always underselling some players. I feel the club were buying players with no plan and vision to fit them in, almost like throwing pies at the wall kind of philosophy, no clear direction where this squad was going
Maybe he couldn't have dropped him.
You will claim that Jose has now dropped him which is proof there is no clause in the contract forbidding dropping him.
But circumstances have changed. Adidas' contract has a steep penalty if MUFC don't qualify for the CL for a 2nd year. So the board may have finally been forced to act and lift any restrictions on benching Rooney, specially after spending big over the summer. Adidas penalty would be much bigger than any potential penalty stipulation in Rooney's contract.
We don't really know if LVG was completely free to act. If it was completely his decision whether or not to drop Rooney, he may just be suffering dementia.
Yeah that about sums up Van Gaals transfer strategy, Rojo for example was signed simply because he was the only left footed defender we could find. So we most likely overlooked many better right footed defenders for Rojo. Silly reasoning in my opinion, but then Louis is a loon.
This is not the thread to discuss that mate, as it's been done at length in others. But long story short when Ferguson said in interview when he for some reason took it upon himself to publicly announce that Rooney had 'asked to leave' he also said ''we're not letting him go''. There actually isn't one quote from Ferguson that indicates he would have sold Rooney. A few weeks before he told journalists in a press conference
"Wayne will be here next year," "You have my word on that.''
I personally don't believe he would have had he not retired, but as i said this isn't the thread to discuss it.
Do you actually believe that Rooney contract stipulation nonsense?
You do know that Rooney was dropped for a game last season by Van Gaal?
Just reading about all of Moyes and LVG's failings is giving me a headache! I'd better ban myself out of this thread.
LvG brought Jackson, Rashford and Lingard into the set up.
Herrera, Shaw, Blind and Martial were all signed under his watch.
He won the first trophy post Fergie
And people actually think he was worse than Moyes? Incredible
Herrera, Shaw, Blind and Martial were all signed under his watch.
He won the first trophy post Fergie
And people actually think he was worse than Moyes? Incredible
Yea it partly is, when you look at who was worse in terms of transfers performences and contract decisions. So story short, Moyes was by far the worst of the 2, he defiantly set us back a few years, and until Jose can reprogrammed this team into a winning machine, the Moyes legacy on what he done to the club will linger on. VG's only saving grace was a CL top 4, an FA cup win, and the rise of Rashford, which allot need to give VG credit for putting so much faith in an 18 year old and look what we have now, so there is the good and bad things about VG, with Moyes there was the bad and terrible things about Moyes
As I said in my post, we don't know what's in the contract. If LVG had complete liberty to drop Rooney and he didn't do it with the form he was in (except for that one game which was done for show), then LVG is demented or a complete incompetent. I don't like VGs style of football, and he is a bit of a lunatic with all his antics. But you don't win what he has won by being incompetent.
I was talking about the Ferguson/Rooney stuff though mate.
Well we know he doesn't have a fecking stipulation that guarantees he plays every match seeing as he was left out of the starting line-up at least twice last season. But even without that no club in the world let alone Manchester United would agree to a contract that guarantees a certain player plays every match. I've never heard of any of any player having that. Anyone who actually believes that such a stipulation exists in Rooneys contract is being daft to put it nicely.
Did it ever occur to you that Van Gaal just started Rooney in most of the games he was fit because he thought that was the best choice to make?
He may have been wrong to do so but he also made lots of other crazy decisions like playing players out of position every week. He was a top coach in his day but past his best by the time he managed us i think.
Well it was the riple effect on how spineless that he had to kiss rooney's ass and beg him to stay, and sacking fergie's backroom staff for me was unforgivable, yeah tell rio ferdinand to defend like phil jagielka lol, its like telling ronaldo to play like dirk kuyt. Everything about david moyes felt like running the PL champions into the ground, like been giving the keys to Microsoft and burning that business into the ground. Its hard to say he was the worst united manager ever, as we not had that many lol
The way I see it, Moyes is the worse manager but Van Gaal is was worse at United (and his lasting damage was worse). Then again who knows how much more damaging Moyes would be if given two years.
It's only dawning on us now, on how stupid it was to sack Moyesy.
We'd have been reigning champions* today
*Of the Championship
We'd have been reigning champions* today
*Of the Championship
How many times must I tell you that neither you nor I have read the contract? I am not saying there is a stipulation that guarantees him playing time - how could I if I haven't read the contract?
By the same means, you have not read the contract either. Therefore you cannot guarantee that there is no clause or clauses that contain economic damages to the club if certain conditions are not met. This is a complicated contract involving football issues AND image rights. It is not impossible nor improbable there may be stipulations in such a contract which impact a managers ability to drop Rooney. What is daft is to assure there is no constraint, effect, or economic consequence to MUFC upon dropping Rooney, when you obviously have not read the contract yourself.
Moyes was far worse. 7th. With the champions.
Van Gaal is a proven winner, and he got us the FA Cup. I think his biggest problem was that, at the end of his career, he was simply too set in his ways to adapt his approach to the premier league and that cost us. In a league where the bottom team are quite capable of scoring goals if you give them a sniff, his pragmatic approach to football cost us too many points. He was very, very good against the better teams in general.
Moyes was rubbish from top to bottom. He took a championship winning setup and dismantled it because he knew better, then replaced that infrastructure with Everton's, who had only won £10 on scratchcard and entry into the readers digest prize draw between them.
Van Gaal is a proven winner, and he got us the FA Cup. I think his biggest problem was that, at the end of his career, he was simply too set in his ways to adapt his approach to the premier league and that cost us. In a league where the bottom team are quite capable of scoring goals if you give them a sniff, his pragmatic approach to football cost us too many points. He was very, very good against the better teams in general.
Moyes was rubbish from top to bottom. He took a championship winning setup and dismantled it because he knew better, then replaced that infrastructure with Everton's, who had only won £10 on scratchcard and entry into the readers digest prize draw between them.
Evans was not replaced by Rojo. They both were in the club together and Evans played like a league 2 defender that season. He is a very poor defender himself
Jesus fecking christ mate, i know for a fact there isn't a fecking clause in his contract that stipulates he plays in every game because A. it's a fecking moronic concept that no club would agree to and B. because he was dropped for two games last season.
You don't need to read someone's contract to employ common sense. Unless you also actually think the stipulation allows him to be dropped for a game or two ''for show'' as you suggested. You must think United is run by a bunch of absolute morons that allow players to insert any old shite into their contracts.
Have you ever heard of or seen anything that proves any player, at any club, anywhere in the world has something similar in their contract to insure they play every game regardless of form?
Answer that question mate and you will have also have your answer as to whether there is anything like that in Rooney's contract.
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Well yeah they played together but we signed Rojo to play left side CB where Evans played. We then sold Evans and bought no other left sided defenders. Ergo Rojo replaced Evans role in the squad.
Evans had a bad season Van Gaals first year no doubt, but he's recovered and still a lot better than Rojo.
Moyes was weak, Van Gaal was poison.
Yep
In the end I went with Moyes on the basis that LVG did at least win an FA Cup. But the football was worse under LVG and the stats bear this out. His transfer policy was a mess (he rebuilt the team twice without actually building anything) and he signed a superstar (Di Maria) yet managed him atrociously, etc.
So I voted Moyes, but to be honest I think if Moyes had been given the time and money LVG was he would have done just as well. Moyes spoke about our squad as if it needed completely overhauling and it seemed easier to change the manager, and yet two and a half years later that is pretty much what has happened.