Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Rightnr said:
You seem like one of those Brexiters that voted for sovereignty who claims everyone did the same, not realising 90% of the vote was down to 'we don't want any more foreigners'. Personally, I understand the concerns on immigration but they have been stoked by government policy for years and years. Nothing to do with the EU, especially because it does not control non-EU immigration.

In fact, the government has made EU's migrants life very difficult lately. I had to wait 5 months to get a work permit (I am Bulgarian) after I graduated which was only based on a ticking a box saying I have a degree. You would not believe the amount of red tape introduced by May's Home Office in the last few years and it's getting worse.

Reading and listening to her speech and those of her cabinet, I am seriously thinking whether I have missed an election in the last 12 months. She's turning the country on its head with no mandate to do so. This won't end well.
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You have to remember that we joined the EEC in 1973 and a lot of people didn't want to join then. In 1993 we further entwined ourselves and there was even more discontent, particularly because we didn't have a say in it. There's been this festering discontent with Brussels over the last 43 years so this feeling of wanting "out" isn't something new to many Brits. Immigration has become a problem in recent years but that's the volume of immigration itself, not immigrants per se.

(Any compatriot of Berb's is welcome here :) )

You wouldn't want another GE - she'd walk it right now. She'd win even if there was good opposition but with no opposition to speak of we'd probably end up with double the number of Tory MP's.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
What percentage of that percentage told the truth
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What percentage of remainers have the power to read the mind of those who voted to leave? Statistics aren't perfect but they beat broad generalisations every time.
 
Rightnr said:
Again your views are pure fantasy. Why should I and other sensible people have to defend the position that leaving the biggest trade market in the world will make you worse off? If you had a job but you got sacked and someone came along and said 'prove to me that you won't be better off sacked than in work' you'd laugh. And you are putting the onus on remain voters to demonstrate why you're delusional? I despair.
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I got sacked 2 years ago and it was the best thing that happened to me. Unknown to me at the time, i was sick and in the wrong place, a bit like the uk, after a rocky 8 months i chose to look for a better job and found it easily. At the beginning of those 8 months i thought i would never work again and felt suicidal.

How does that fit your analogy?
 
Will Absolute said:
For the last time - I'm not British!:D

The EU's position on the proposed TTIP agreement with the US is based on a judgement that such a change in its existing trade relationship with America would be detrimental to its interests.

The EU has an existing trade relationship with Britain from which both parties benefit. The introduction of significant trade restrictions will disrupt that relationship and be harmful to both Britain and the EU. It makes more sense to let sleeping dogs lie.

There's a difference between telling workers all across Europe: "You must lose your jobs because we want to make an example of the bad British", and rejecting a radical alteration in the way Europe presently does business with the US.

The EU has a larger economy than Britain and has the advantage in that respect. But the British economy is not chopped liver and the EU can't hurt Britain without hurting itself. The British will come to the negotiating table as junior partners, not with a begging bowl. In the final analysis commonsense will prevail and all the multi-various strands linking Europe and Britain won't be cut out of a transient sense of pique.

I've said the same thing on this subject now for several posts going back to before the referendum. There's no point in saying it again. We'll see what happens. If I'm wrong and still around, I'll come to this thread and acknowledge my mistake.
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This argument is pretty past nationalities at this point

The EU and the UK have a trade deal that worked for both parties. Now the UK wants to change it and make it heavily stacked towards them. Do you think that the EU will just say 'oh well ok' about that? That trade deal is a goner. Things are bound to change and the EU would rather piss off a trade partner then risk to provide a deal which would be too good for the leaver. The reason to that is that it risks to bring in a contagion with countries preferring that deal rather then full membership.

At this point we're speaking regarding the EU as 1 big country but its not. There's 27 nations in the EU all with different agendas and all armed with a VETO. Some have a healthy business relationship with the UK and would want this trade relationship to continue in one way or another. Others barely conduct any business at all with the UK, their citizens had been insulted time and time again by the UK politicians and they are heavily reliant on freedom of movement. Why do you expect them to stay mum and accept everything to appease the former? These countries have a history of being persecuted. How do you think they will react to comments (some coming from politicians) and articles portraying their citizens as some sort of bad influence to the UK? Its ironic how people expect the EU countries to be pragmatic when all the UK is doing is shooting at its financial foot to appease that huge xenophobic and nationalist minority.

Boris believed that if the UK voted Brexit the EU would be desperate to give the UK a better deal in a bid to keep them in the Union. That didn't happen. May believed that informal negotiations will start immediately that didn't happen either and that stance remained the same even after she gave a clear indication when article 50 will be activated. There's no doubt that the UK is a prosperous country and by leaving the EU it will have a negative impact on the union. However could it be that they have overrated their importance a bit too much? EU existence > trade with Britain especially since

a- the UK will go into recession either way. Less money in the British people pocket will translate into less trade irrespective whether they are in the single market
b- A hard Brexit will move companies from the UK to the EU which is a big plus for the EU. I've placed an article stating that the French are being bombarded by enquiries from financial companies located in the UK about the prospect of moving to the continent
c- The EU will grow stronger if the quitter's economy goes tits up. Others will be less likely to follow that path.
 
Will Absolute said:
For the last time - I'm not British!:D

The EU's position on the proposed TTIP agreement with the US is based on a judgement that such a change in its existing trade relationship with America would be detrimental to its interests.

The EU has an existing trade relationship with Britain from which both parties benefit. The introduction of significant trade restrictions will disrupt that relationship and be harmful to both Britain and the EU. It makes more sense to let sleeping dogs lie.

There's a difference between telling workers all across Europe: "You must lose your jobs because we want to make an example of the bad British", and rejecting a radical alteration in the way Europe presently does business with the US.

The EU has a larger economy than Britain and has the advantage in that respect. But the British economy is not chopped liver and the EU can't hurt Britain without hurting itself. The British will come to the negotiating table as junior partners, not with a begging bowl. In the final analysis commonsense will prevail and all the multi-various strands linking Europe and Britain won't be cut out of a transient sense of pique.

I've said the same thing on this subject now for several posts going back to before the referendum. There's no point in saying it again. We'll see what happens. If I'm wrong and still around, I'll come to this thread and acknowledge my mistake.
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The difference is that the effects on the EU employment will probably negligible, especially since you can expect quite a few companies leaving Britain and settling in Germany or France. In the end there are, as you said, existing trade relations. And yes, those won't be cut off. BEcause they can't, because most stuff Britain imports they can't get enywhere else and even with tarriffs, the advantage in logistic costs will still make up for a lot.
Because there will be no punitive costums. Just normal tarriffs. That is the normal deal, it won't hurt the EU much, the UK a bit more.
There will be no "punishment". The notion of that is ridicoulus. But if the UK should leave the EU and abandon freedom of movement, it will be treated like every other country not inside the EU. There's no bad will behind that, that is just how things go.
 
sullydnl said:
I'd love to know where you got that "90% of the vote was down to not wanting foreigners" idea from when the statistical breakdowns I saw at the time suggested it was more like a third of leavers who named immigration as their #1 reason for voting to leave.

Seems like you're one of the 90% of people who make up nonsense stats on the spot. :P
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Q1: Are you a racist
A1: No (but yes 57% of the time)
 
Mozza said:
So people voted out on the basis of a few gripes. Right
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With one of the main gripes being I hate darkies and foreigners and I don't want to see them any more and that nice man Mr Farange says I won't have to if I vote for Britex.
 
An English friend of mine, living in France, just told me that two of her friends, a couple in their 70s who were also living in France, firstly voted to Leave in the referendum, why- because of the immigration issue in the UK :wenger:- one of them wanted to stay in France and one wanted to go back to the UK. They decided to sell up and are now in the process of moving back to the UK.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Anyone able to make sense of Theresa May's current suicidal bravado?
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At first I thought she was trying to prove herself to the Tory right wing/UKIP. Now I think that actually she's using Brexit as an excuse for every right wing thing the Tories have ever wanted to do but couldn't say out loud. She begrudgingly supported Remain so presumably knows Brexit will damage the economy but thinks she can hold power by going after UKIP voters with xenophobic policies and frustrated Labour voters with a more active state.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
An English friend of mine, living in France, just told me that two of her friends, a couple in their 70s who were also living in France, firstly voted to Leave in the referendum, why- because of the immigration issue in the UK :wenger:- one of them wanted to stay in France and one wanted to go back to the UK. They decided to sell up and are now in the process of moving back to the UK.
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:lol: Unreal.
 
Tyrion said:
At first I thought she was trying to prove herself to the Tory right wing/UKIP. Now I think that actually she's using Brexit as an excuse for every right wing thing the Tories have ever wanted to do but couldn't say out loud. She begrudgingly supported Remain so presumably knows Brexit will damage the economy but thinks she can hold power by going after UKIP voters with xenophobic policies and frustrated Labour voters with a more active state.
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In fairness i dont see comrade corbyn wrestling power off her so yeah pretty much free reign till labour can sort them selves out
 
Mozza said:
So people voted out on the basis of a few gripes. Right
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People are weird and (often) stupid and misinformed.

Though I will say that the remainers who throw out the "90% of leavers are racist" arguments are guilty of stupidity too. It's no wonder the remain campaign failed if that was the message they were sending to those who were leaning towards leave.
 
sullydnl said:
People are weird and (often) stupid and misinformed.

Though I will say that the remainers who throw out the "90% of leavers are racist" arguments are guilty of stupidity too. It's no wonder the remain campaign failed if that was the message they were sending to those who were leaning towards leave.
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Agreed completely. I don't think people were racist (some obviously were), I just think having listened to dozens of interviews it seemed like those people had no real knowledge of why they were voting and instead got hooked into by the headline bullshit the brexiters were cooking up. As evidenced by the amount of people voting Leave in isolated regions of the UK where the only financial help they received was from the EU. Just totally bizarre.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
An English friend of mine, living in France, just told me that two of her friends, a couple in their 70s who were also living in France, firstly voted to Leave in the referendum, why- because of the immigration issue in the UK :wenger:- one of them wanted to stay in France and one wanted to go back to the UK. They decided to sell up and are now in the process of moving back to the UK.
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Most of the British expats in my country I know are Brexiteers. They don't want foreigners in their country and they want control over immigration. When asked what if the EU decides to the same they reply, Nah you won't do that to us won't you? Its ridiculous
 
devilish said:
Most of the British expats in my country I know are Brexiteers. They don't want foreigners in their country and they want control over immigration. When asked what if the EU decides to the same they reply, Nah you won't do that to us won't you? Its ridiculous
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In fairness if they are already living / working over there then they are probably right - afterall even the conservatives have come out and said that we will let all people stay here who are here - presuming it will be reciprocal.
 
sun_tzu said:
In fairness i dont see comrade corbyn wrestling power off her so yeah pretty much free reign till labour can sort them selves out
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Is Corbyn really that bad? If this is the new Tory centre how extreme is Corbyn in comparison?
 
devilish said:
Most of the British expats in my country I know are Brexiteers. They don't want foreigners in their country and they want control over immigration. When asked what if the EU decides to the same they reply, Nah you won't do that to us won't you? Its ridiculous
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Most of the British people I know were absolutely furious with the Leave vote, although these have integrated well into the French system, people and culture.
However, you can find enclaves of British people who only mix with their own , refuse to even attempt to speak French and even order all their food from Asda or Tesco's and have it delivered to their homes in France. Fortunately most of these are starting to drift back to the UK, mainly in the more elderly age group, this should help the NHS flourish
 
sullydnl said:
People are weird and (often) stupid and misinformed.

Though I will say that the remainers who throw out the "90% of leavers are racist" arguments are guilty of stupidity too. It's no wonder the remain campaign failed if that was the message they were sending to those who were leaning towards leave.
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I can't remeber Cameron calling all leavers racists, nor the campaign.

Leave went on immigration almost to the exclusion of everything else, they didn't have anything else
 
sun_tzu said:
In fairness if they are already living / working over there then they are probably right - afterall even the conservatives have come out and said that we will let all people stay here who are here - presuming it will be reciprocal.
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TBH mate I trust neither EU nor UK on this regard. How things are developing we'll end up victims of a tit for tat fight between the two
 
Mozza said:
Leave went on immigration almost to the exclusion of everything else, they didn't have anything else
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:boring: When the facts don't suit you, make up load of nonsense huh?

Media reports from the commencement of campaigning would show the falsehood you are suggesting there.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Most of the British people I know were absolutely furious with the Leave vote, although these have integrated well into the French system, people and culture.
However, you can find enclaves of British people who only mix with their own , refuse to even attempt to speak French and even order all their food from Asda or Tesco's and have it delivered to their homes in France. Fortunately most of these are starting to drift back to the UK, mainly in the more elderly age group, this should help the NHS flourish
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That's intolerable. Importing british food when you are in France...:nono:
 
Mozza said:
I can't remeber Cameron calling all leavers racists, nor the campaign.

Leave went on immigration almost to the exclusion of everything else, they didn't have anything else
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I wasn't literally suggesting that the Remain campaign had stated that leavers were racist, that was just a turn of phrase. I was speaking about the attitude of remain supporters generally.

Put it this way: Anybody who starts off an argument with a statement as factually incorrect as "90% of the vote was down to 'we don't want any more foreigners'" can't then be surprised when leavers don't engage with the actual facts they present. It just makes remainers seems as hysterical as leavers, which aids the anti-fact side of the leave argument.

If the Remain campaign had spoken about leavers the way some of the remain posters here do then the result would have been even worse.
 
sullydnl said:
I wasn't literally suggesting that the Remain campaign had stated that leavers were racist, that was just a turn of phrase. I was speaking about the attitude of remain supporters generally.

Put it this way: Anybody who starts off an argument with a statement as factually incorrect as "90% of the vote was down to 'we don't want any more foreigners'" can't then be surprised when leavers don't engage with the actual facts they present. It just makes remainers seems as hysterical as leavers, which aids the anti-fact side of the leave argument.

If the Remain campaign had spoken about leavers the way some of the remain posters here do then the result would have been even worse.
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The reason the remainers got more and more perplexed by the Brexiteers on here were that after lengthy debates and statements and forecasts and expert opinions , the Brexiteers refused to acknowledge that the UK economy would suffer badly, that the UK laws were not all governed by Brussels and that each country in the EU still had it's own identity. The only thing left was Immigration whether controlled or not, and then one can see now nearly all the discussions are about Immigration.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
:boring: When the facts don't suit you, make up load of nonsense huh?

Media reports from the commencement of campaigning would show the falsehood you are suggesting there.
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They were doing terribly in the polls then shifted to the only ground they could win on. Its the racism that won it
 
sullydnl said:
I wasn't literally suggesting that the Remain campaign had stated that leavers were racist, that was just a turn of phrase. I was speaking about the attitude of remain supporters generally.

Put it this way: Anybody who starts off an argument with a statement as factually incorrect as "90% of the vote was down to 'we don't want any more foreigners'" can't then be surprised when leavers don't engage with the actual facts they present. It just makes remainers seems as hysterical as leavers, which aids the anti-fact side of the leave argument.

If the Remain campaign had spoken about leavers the way some of the remain posters here do then the result would have been even worse.
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Its the statement after the vote as nothing else explains the result
 
Mozza said:
Its the statement after the vote as nothing else explains the result
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"They all dislike foreigners" doesn't explain the vote at all, especially when only a third of leavers named immigration as the primary reason for voting that way. It's a cop out to paint them all as mad racists who couldn't possibly have been reasoned with.

I think UK society is clearly rather fractured and divided. Dismissing the other side of that divide as nasty lunatics isn't a good way of examining or fixing the underlying issues that led to Brexit.
 
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Nick 0208 Ldn said:
:boring: When the facts don't suit you, make up load of nonsense huh?

Media reports from the commencement of campaigning would show the falsehood you are suggesting there.
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Like claiming the Leave campaign never said they could spend £350m on the NHS?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The reason the remainers got more and more perplexed by the Brexiteers on here were that after lengthy debates and statements and forecasts and expert opinions , the Brexiteers refused to acknowledge that the UK economy would suffer badly, that the UK laws were not all governed by Brussels and that each country in the EU still had it's own identity. The only thing left was Immigration whether controlled or not, and then one can see now nearly all the discussions are about Immigration.
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When an expert says go left, go right every time
 
Stanley Road said:
That would be a fair point if people voted solely on that basis. Did people vote leave because of that claim? Doubt it.
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No one's claiming people voted solely on that basis but I do expect it influenced some voters despite it being not only a bit of a lie, but a complete and utter lie with no factual basis whatsoever.
 
Stanley Road said:
That would be a fair point if people voted solely on that basis. Did people vote leave because of that claim? Doubt it.
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Oh I was having a go at Nick in particular, not leavers in general:

Nick 0208 Ldn said:
So there's been much talk about this 350m figure and how Vote Leave allegedly said they would spend it all on the NHS, yet their pre-referendum plan explicitly stated that weekly investment would total £100m/week. I am just wondering how all of you supposedly smarter Remainers managed to miss this detail?
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Despite, well, this:

Dan said:
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Alex99 said:
Dunno mate

vote-leave-nhs-350-million-brexit.jpg
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Dobba said:
When was this then Nick? Because I could swear this says £350m. But I'm more than willing to bow to you superior wisdom on how it is actually made very clear that the figure is £100m.

https://twitter.com/vote_leave
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I wouldn't mind Nick having a pop about 'making up nonsense' if he hadn't done the exact same thing at times himself when it suited, but this is hardly the only example of him doing exactly what he's moaning about others doing.
 
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