Great web!, I didn´t know it. So many good games...Probably my first choice will be Milan crushing Barça in 93/94
I am actually re-watching that one right now for Maldini
Cristiano Ronaldo - Performances (wums will be thread banned)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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I am actually re-watching that one right now for Maldini
If we were only allowed to rate players we have seen that severely curtails any names we can mention on these top 10 lists, but that list i agree with. You need to do more than just keep scoring a lot of goals to prove that you belong in the pantheon of ATGs. Ronaldo hasn't done that anywhere near as much as Zidane has throught his career and purely on the subject of technical ability no matter how often he fills his boots in games Madrid win 5-0 he's inferior to quite a few of those players.
This is where I don't understand. I am older than you yet I couldn't saw enough to make a fair judgement on say Di Stefano, Best, Platini, Cruyff, Beckbenbauer and even Pele. Pele record spoke for himself though, but then 30 years from now when people look at Ronaldo's record they may regard him as highly as well. Just saying.
To be fair, for all the players I have witness in my lifetime so far, Messi and Ronaldo are easily the best, followed by Zidane, Ronaldo 9, and then probably Ronaldinho. Another reason why Messi and Ronaldo are far ahead of others, is mainly because of their consistency in highest level for so many years.
That is why I think it is silly (for the most part) to try and rate players from today with players from bygone eras. I went to the site you listed and it is probably very interesting overall however the Di Stefano collection (for instance) had 6 games , the Pele collection 23 and even the Cruyff collection only had 28. I didn't register so I don't know about the other stars quoted in the original post (Best, Beckenbauer) but just as a comparison the Messi collection had 230.
What is so extraordinary about Messi and Ronaldo is not just their talent but the sheer number of games they have been able to be extraordinary in, especially in games that are sometimes referred to as "wet Wednesday in Stoke" kind of games. The same may have been true for the legends of old but for the most part except for the odd game (usually a final) in grainy black and white video most of the evidence will be apocryphal. Messi and Ronaldo are the two best players I have seen in the modern era. It's really hard to say more than that (for me) as for the most part I'm comparing apples and oranges. I may be getting old and my memory is fading but apart from George I never got a chance to see the others week in week out like you can watch players today (and even with him it is a very, very long time ago and I was very young). IMHO, that is extremely important in rating how good a player is overall and where they belong in the pantheon of great players how they perform each week or at least how they look in a random sampling of their exploits. Ronaldo, for instance, gets an awful lot of stick when he doesn't play well in a particular game on here. If I picked out 6, 23, 28, probably even 230 and left out all the games he looked less than stellar he would look even more like the world beater he is and has been for a very,very,very long time.
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It's really subjetive. It's just my opinion. In my eyes Ronaldo is a Beast, but I can't see him toying other teams. Don't know how to explain it, he scores goals all the time, which of course is the most important, but if I compare him with these geniuses, with Zidane, Di Stefano, Pele, Messi, Maradona...they could really make it on their own, make a team play better. Ronaldinho & R9 could do it on their own too, and they won everything you can win in world football. But I see Ronaldo as a goalscorer, a finisher, one of the most prolific in history. I see he relies too much in his teammates. If he maintained the style he had at United and the first years in Madrid...but it's like he sacrifaced that to score tons of goals.
I have the fortune of loving football enough to read & watch what I could about lots of players. Unfortunately, I can't really get into the context well enough. But what Di Stefano did at Madrid is almost unreachable for me. What Maradona did at Naples and in WC 86 is unreachable. The impact that Pele had in football, everything he won and the tons of goals he scored, and so with everyone of the others. Again, It's my opinion though. But well, it's good when someone gives a valid argument like yours, and not when others just put my location, with the stupid logic that cause I'm from Buenos Aires must I hate CR7 or the Brazilians, which is bullshet. And then ask you your age, or which footballer you like. One thing is to mock on Cristiano for something, ppl here judging him for a picture, and other is giving what is my opinion about him playing. You can take it or not, but that doesn't make me a WUM.
I remember Best, and he was magnificent. On his day he was extraordinary, at his best I recall him as an unstoppable player. But he was also wildly inconsistent, perhaps because of the team he was playing for, a United on decline, perhaps because of the drink and his other demons.
I also watched a lot of Zidane. A lovely player to watch and absolutely decisive on his day, and his days were some of the biggest days in football, but he had the horrible habit of "not showing up" for months at a time and looking for Madrid as if he could only be arsed to play for about 5 minutes per game. I don't think anyone believes that Maradona or Ronaldinho were consistent. They had their games and even seasons when they were magnificent.
What Messi and Ronaldo have given us is extraordinary consistency and longevity. I'd have to give the edge to Messi, because he's delivered the unplayable days more often - but I'll also give credit to Ronaldo for changing his game to become a United player and then changing it again to become the one Madrid wanted.
So looking at those top 10 sort of lists. I don't know. I don't know how anyone can know. I don't even know what we're comparing - their average, their peak, some kind of lifetime achievement thing for their whole career? Perhaps Pele was both consistent and extraordinary, perhaps Di Stefano was. But the others? I'm not sure, but I do know that some of them weren't. I certainly don't know if that makes Ronaldo a top 10 of all time, but I am pretty sure that if he isn't then the top ten are pretty extraordinary, and I suspect that people are comparing peak performances and highlights rather than whole games and a decade of them.
I also watched a lot of Zidane. A lovely player to watch and absolutely decisive on his day, and his days were some of the biggest days in football, but he had the horrible habit of "not showing up" for months at a time and looking for Madrid as if he could only be arsed to play for about 5 minutes per game. I don't think anyone believes that Maradona or Ronaldinho were consistent. They had their games and even seasons when they were magnificent.
What Messi and Ronaldo have given us is extraordinary consistency and longevity. I'd have to give the edge to Messi, because he's delivered the unplayable days more often - but I'll also give credit to Ronaldo for changing his game to become a United player and then changing it again to become the one Madrid wanted.
So looking at those top 10 sort of lists. I don't know. I don't know how anyone can know. I don't even know what we're comparing - their average, their peak, some kind of lifetime achievement thing for their whole career? Perhaps Pele was both consistent and extraordinary, perhaps Di Stefano was. But the others? I'm not sure, but I do know that some of them weren't. I certainly don't know if that makes Ronaldo a top 10 of all time, but I am pretty sure that if he isn't then the top ten are pretty extraordinary, and I suspect that people are comparing peak performances and highlights rather than whole games and a decade of them.
Well having witnessed Ronaldo9 whole career from beginning and to his retirement, I would say he was simply unstoppable during his early years (PSV and Barca), then unfortunately his career has been downhill since his move to Inter where he suffered from long term injuries. He did quite well in Real though, but far from his best form, and I believe at that period of time he wasn't even considered as best striker in the world for most part of it (I thought Ruud and Henry were better strikers during that period, and Ronaldinho and Zidane were the better players). His international career has been quite impressive though, especially with scoring those many goals in WC, but Brazil at that time has many superstars too (Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc), which makes everything looks easier. Overall I think if not for his injuries, he might have a real shot for greatest for all time title, unfortunately, his long term injuries really ruined his chances, but still a very good player overall and one of the best of his generation. But having considered everything I've seen, I wouldn't rate him above Messi and Ronaldo. Maybe I'd place him alongside with Zidane, or just behind.
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Top post.
It's a shame you couldn't have seen him at the top of his game when United were truly a force to be reckoned with. I was very young at the time but even at my tender age I appreciated that he could do things that other players couldn't seem to do. He is still my favorite player of all time and he was also the best player I had ever seen in a United shirt for nearly 40 years and then came Ronaldo...............
Great post.
At the end of the day, fans bring in their personal likes and hates which colour opinions.
That couldn't be more spot on.
Think its pretty stupid to dismiss someones opinion just because he wasnt alive when a certain player was at his peak. For majority of players there is plenty of footage and if someone is really interested in that he can watch more then enough games to build a reliable opinion. Is that opinion right or wrong its up to individual person but thats the same for players you watch "live" now.
For example, im pretty much "obsessed" with Cruyff so i watched around 50 full games of him, thats more then i have on someone like Verratti and if i say something about him nobody will question that while xy of people will question my opinion of Cruyff even though i watched him more and i know much more about him then i know about little italian wizard.
For example, im pretty much "obsessed" with Cruyff so i watched around 50 full games of him, thats more then i have on someone like Verratti and if i say something about him nobody will question that while xy of people will question my opinion of Cruyff even though i watched him more and i know much more about him then i know about little italian wizard.
Might be controversial here but if you ask me, Ronaldo is easily better than Best. Both for his ability and success on the pitch. He is better as a player and he achieved far more than Best ever did.
I used to like watching him and I'm not talking about the flamboyant player of 06/07 at Man Utd or his early years at Madrid but even when he turned into a pure goalscoring machine because at least his goals were a bit spectacular. Nowadays I just feel like (unfairly maybe) that he just scores shit goals.
Easily is pushing it though.
That would be like me agreeing citizen kane is the greatest film of all time even though I haven't seen it so how can I comment. I could compile a list of the ten greatest films of all time and if I'd only seen three of them all I'm doing is copy and pasting other peoples idea. If you have a post with a top ten and its not sourcing anybody and you claim it as your top ten it has to be players you have seen. I'm not suggesting his list is wrong, I'm not doubting the credentials of the greats of the game like maradonna, Pele, cruyff beckenbauer etc but I'm not in a real position to comment on how great they were as all i'm doing is passing on information from other people which is unfair because they're filled with nostalgia and legend, whereas Ronaldo for example we are more aware of all his awful patches of play the flaws in his game etc that you don't get when you talk about previous players.
Ronaldo is better than zidane hands down. I wouldn't even suggest Zidane is the greatest of his type in recent memory or at the very least the Iniesta debate can be made. Nobody is comparing Iniesta in terms of ability to Ronaldo.
If you have watched 50 full matches of Cruyff then yes you are fit to comment, I wouldn't contest that for a second. What I would contest is if for instance you had seen the best of Pele on youtube and a couple of his most famous games. However, I'd also imagine the 50 games you have watched of cruyff would be 50 of his best games, but if you watch a lot of football now you end up seeing Ronaldo having an off game against some random team where Madrid still win 4-0 so its different from that perspective. If you've just watched 50 random cruyff games then fair play.
Why would that even be controversial. Far too much disrespect towards CR7 on the Caf, the guy is a phenomenon.
Ronaldo tied Ryan Giggs today for the CL all-time assists leader, 30!
Wildly consistent? there was a run of 6 seasons where for 5 seasons he was Utds top goal scorer and he did this while playing from out wide.
He was inconsistent towards the end but the core of his career at Utd he was nowhere near wildly inconsistent.
Yeah some of us who watched both play will disagree about this bit.
Ronaldo was the first player for me who we had who did what Best used to do, have the crowd move to the edge of their seat every time he got the ball. I think a massive amount of the bile chucked at Ronaldo on here is nothing short of idiotic but it terms of ability he was nowhere near "easily better than Best"
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Wow, never thought those two are up there. Great achievment for Ronaldo.
Just looked up the list, Messi in third as expected, followed by Ibra. Özil with 21 in 5th is impressive as he had basically only those 3 Madrid years with deep CL runs, D.Alves tied for 9th is mad high for a fullback.
Giggs was an assist machine. Nobody comes close to him in the PL.
I'm as surprised as you about Ronaldo. Would have though Messi had a higher total but he has played 29 games less.
Opinions are more than just your own testimony and looking up walls of stats though, you can't just disregard a vast body of anecdotal evidence because you weren't alive for it as that would mean no one should ever express an opinion on anything unless they experienced it first hand themselves, that train of thought voids pretty much all debate and discussion on most things. To brush it off as just rose tinted nostalgia is a cop out in a game with lot of history to learn from and plenty of room for subjectivity.
I disagree about the Zidane bit as i don't ever remember Ronaldo dominating a big game the way he did the CL final in 08, Iniesta is arguably better than Zidane and at his best he was comparable to Messi so it is not an outrageous comparison to make. He also left a mark on big games much more than Ronaldo did. I have said before that Ronaldo has played like Lampard on turbo charge since 2007, he
Less than Ronaldo or Giggs ?
Statements like this are laughable. Why do people feel the need to play Ronaldo's abilities down to such a level? His dribbling obviously deteriorated over the years but up until about 3 seasons ago there was still a lot of flair and creativity to his game.
Yeah, that's fair. In the context of the post-Busby team, he was not only the best player, he was one of the most consistent ones. I suspect in my head it's more the contrast between George on a good day and George on a bad day that sticks, rather than me averaging him out across a season, or in the context of the team. Like I said, this comparisons thing on individual players is tricky.
The big problem here is that we all have our favourites for different reasons. Ronaldo is an amazing goal scoring machine and I am amazed in here how so many put so much effort into trying to belittle his efforts as a player.
It does have more than a thimble of truth though since he has prioritised goal scoring and individualism over all other facets of the game. Not that anything is wrong with it but to say people with this opinion are just bitter or have an agenda of some sort is quite disingenuous, they value the aesthetic aspect of football quite highly among other things.
There's nothing wrong with valuing the aesthetics of the game but what you said was an insult.
He's prioritised goal scoring, that doesn't make him a better Frank Lampard, come on now. And since 2007? If you've actually watched him then you'll know that's not true. It just makes me laugh that someone could reduce his form in his early years at Madrid, never mind our double winning champions league season to 'Frank Lampard on turbo charge'.
It's like @Stack says, it's just amazing how far people go to belittle Ronaldo.
You're taking the Lampard comparison a little too literally here, it may not be resounding praise but it isn't as damning as it sounds as Lampard actually overachieved as a footballer and became a legend by becoming a very efficient goal scoring midfielder. I don't believe Ronaldo has shown anywhere near as much flair as he did during the 06/07 season ever since, even during 07/08 those moments were sporadic. I've rarely had the feeling that he is going to dazzle with skill when I've seen him play in important games for Madrid and i don't usually see anything at odds with that feeling. When the defence for his impactful performances is an example of him scoring a goal after being anonymous for most of the match, it is quite telliing. In both Madrid's CL wins and Portugal's Euro win he was hardly the main reason why each of those teams won.
I don't understand some people when it comes to watching sport. I'm a huge basketball fan and I read the other day on here that Stephen Curry is awful if his shot is not falling. What people don't understand is that if he stood at the top of the key and did nothing he would still be double teamed leaving team mates open to take advantage. I'm not going to deny that Ronaldo is past his peak now but when he was younger you could guarantee he had the other teams best defender marking him and invariably there would be a second defender covering the first guy. If he happened to be "on" that day you could easily extend this to more leaving team mates open to take advantage. All the while, during his career he has been one of the most prolific scorers in history and his teams and he have won almost every available honor out there. Oh, but he was anonymous today I read. If he's on the pitch, just like all great players, he's never anonymous.
There is a player called Gerd Muller who only scored goals, he didnt assist, didnt play make, didnt create much, didnt defend, didnt seem to do much except score goals. On top of that he only ever seemed to score ugly or easy tap in goals. He was always in the right place at the right time, it wasnt viewed as lucky but viewed asa function of the timing of his runs, his anticipation, his ability to see what was coming. Nobody ever belittled the quality of his game because of it, it was something seen as huge asset, a skill in itself. He is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. I was lucky enough to see him play and he was a superstar of the time.
He wasnt viewed by some the way that Ronaldo is viewed , (someone who contributes nothing but just goals.) he was viewed as a genius who's contribution was the goals he scored, despite the lack of everything else he didnt contribute.
Wish you and others could have seen him. Your perception of Ronaldo might be a little different. You should look him up some time.
I have a funny feeling you dont understand what I said or meant. Read it again and keep a note of the actual message in the rest of what i said about him. Also make sure you check out what the word "seemed" means.
Negative opinions on Ronaldo will usually be a bit hyperbolic, because they are in response to things like Ballon d'Or, GOAT conversations, or Ronaldo vs Messi debates. Anyone who thinks Ronaldo shouldn't be in one of those debates, will necessarily criticize him by those standards, and frequently go over the top. Same happens otherwise, some of his fans also go to strange lenghts in arguments, pointing out irrelevant or flat out wrong things.
I don't understand the logic of you telling them to watch Gerd Muller in order to better appreciate Ronaldo. Muller won only one Ballon d'Or and was never in a GOAT discussion (well, not in the current era, I can't speak for what the debate was during his peak). In fact, comparing Ronaldo to Gerd Muller is often used by people like me when they claim he is nowhere near the level of Messi or a GOAT discussion. It's used to bellitle Ronaldo. Not in absolute terms, as of course him and Muller are geniuses of football, but in relative terms, when we want to point out his limitations in comparison to what we perceive as the VERY best, whether that was a player in a single season (i.e., Suarez) discussion or other players in more permanent status of greatness.
Jojojo is right when he points out Ronaldo and Messi's longevity as extraordinary, and worth on its own of us having great admiration for them. But then that and goalscoring are the only things on which I think of them as remotely comparable, so when people put both in the same sentence pointing that, I always read it as a bit of a cop out.
Im pointing out the utter stupidity of one of the arguments people use to belittle Ronaldo, that he doesnt create, that he only scores goals as though that makes him some sort of lesser player. Muller scored goals, thats what he did. He didnt dribble past players like Messi, he didnt make lots of defence splitting passes etc, he scored goals. it was viewed back then as a thing of genius. So many on here view Ronaldo doing the same thing as being an indication of weakness.
*sighs*
When Gerd Müller was injured Bayern couldn't score any goals and he was always their top assister as well. In fact, when people label Müller as a poacher you immediately know they have never watched any of his games at Bayern. Maybe for Germany where he played closer to the box you could accuse him of being a poacher but for Bayern, his movement was more like Messi. Not in terms of dribbling but the way he dropped deep to create overloads and then ran into space to receive the ball. He didn't simply just goal hang.
He actually played as a DM in a few games (positionally) when they defended and wasn't a box striker as he is labelled. He had to use the wide players for combinations so he could get in the box and use his first touch and turns to score goals. So you saying he didn't defend is just a flat out lie.
The only reason Muller is not rated is because the German Media back then just didn't like him. They rated Uwe Seeler as a much better striker from a few kicker articles. I read because and there was a prevailing notion that Muller was just too inelegant. He obviosuly was not as elegant as elegant as Lord Cruijff but he turned up in big games and unlike CR who has failed on the biggest stages in his career more often than not (2 cl finals and Portugal didn't even need him to win the Euro final).
Gerd is the greatest #9 and the greatest goal scorer. Pele can count all the goals he scored in friendlies and in the years where Santos where like Harlem globe trotters and getting paid to play money. The lack of media backing is the reason that he is underrated and seen as some box tap in Inzaghi player when he was incredibly mobile, incredible at finisher, great in the air, incredible at turning defenders. His only weakness was one vs ones when running over long distances as he didn't have the greatest of dexterity, but his low centre of gravity allowed him to execute quick movements to destabilise defenders. Think of Xavi when running at opponents directly.
In the 75/76 season Bayern came 2nd, Muller missed 10 games in a row and Bayern fell from 2nd to 7th in that time. 3 wins 1 draw and 6 defeats (scored 15 and conceded 28!)
Muller came back and Bayern finshed 3rd and were 5 points behind the legendary Gladbach team that until recently, were the best domestic side in german history.
A year later, in 76/77 Bayern were 2nd again with Muller, then Muller missed 9 games and they went from 2nd to 10th in this time with 2 wins 2 draws and 5 defeats scoring only 5 goals and conceding 15 goals! Bayern finished 7th, 7 points behind the legendary Gladbach. In both those seasons Muller scored 1+ goals a game (23 goals in 22 games & 23 goals in 25 games, 28 goals etc) and Bayern were literally useless without him so this myth of them being some super team is just that. They had at best 3, maybe 4 players that were considered world class.
So Bayern in 19 games over those 2 seasons without Muller scored 20 goals in 19 games and conceded 38 goals without Muller.
Without Gerd Germany don't win a world cup and and dominate the international scene. The way he was shunned back then is similar treatment to the way Suarez is given these days despite being the #9 above all others.
"Without the goals of Gerd Müller, Bayern Munich would not be where it is today. What Bayern have today, their palace on the Säbener Straße, that would have stayed a shed without him” – Franz Beckenbauer
I'm pretty sure that some people back then would have argued the same way, if people said Müller is better than Cruyff or Pele.
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That's complete nonsense. That myth that Müller was that limited poacher who didn't offer anything but goals is so so sad.
*sighs*
see I got to watch him play, you apparently read about him in kicker.
You however also completely miss the actual point because you have gone into trainspotter mode. The point was to illustrate just how idiotic the belittling of Ronaldo on here actually is. He scored a hat trick last week and one poster referred to it as a deflection, an undeserved penalty and a gift from Bale.
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