Specifically?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Specifically?
I might be wrong but as I understand it you have to enforce EU tariffs/quotas and you can't do your own trade deals inside these looser arrangments.
It wouldn't be seen as leaving the EU in anything but name.
You are right and that's true for every other market membership.
It's not illegal to drink and drive. It's illegal to drive a vehicle with excess alcohol in your body and that too its open to interpretation when intentions are brought into question. Everything in law is open to interpretation.
I believe Switzerland have their own external trade deals, if that's what you mean. So depending on the arrangements I guess it would be possible. However I'd favour a closer union than Switzerland have.
But regardless, the point I was making is that their exists a position that both satisfies the outcome of the referendum and would be something that Labour Remainers might be able to get behind. I wasn't suggesting that May should take this route, or that Leavers generally would be happy with it, rather that it should be Labour's position, being a party of predominantly Remain voters and MPs.
Switzerland is in the schengen and has FOM. Their people voted in a referendum to curb EU migration but the best their government could deliver was a local preference for job vacancies before hiring from abroad.
May's pies in the sky will never materialise.
But Labour's position is that accepting FOM is worth it for a good deal, and that immigration isn't too high anyway. So they make no difference to Labour's positioning.
1. UK cannot start negotiating a trade deal with US until it has left EU. This will be at least half way through what will hopefully be Trump's only term. The focus should be solely on the EU deal for the time being. Anything that can undermine that is a stupid policy decision.
2. A deal with the EU can be vetoed by any one of its members, including the Baltic states. At a time when Putin is trying to undermine the entire EU project, and is using Trump to help achieve that, it is unwise to prioritise cosying up to his administration.
The EU and the US have been trying to negotiate a trade deal for 4 years, a deal that has faced considerable opposition over the threat it could form to our food standards, NHS, etc. Is the UK (with no trade negotiators and a market 1/10th the size) going to be able to negotiate a better deal than the entire EU couldn't?
We are in a bizarre position where the people who campaigned on the basis of providing more funding to the NHS are cheering the possibility of a trade deal that would undoubtedly lead to its destruction
My point is that absolutely nothing can be achieved with the EU that can satisfy leavers because the only point they really care about is immigration.
I actually quite like Corbyn, but I do think that the best thing for the Labour party right now would be a change of leadership - simply because if they got in a proper pro-EU candidate they could galvanise and rally half the population around them. Failing that, the Lib Dems should really try to up their game.
You speak for them all?
Love Corbyn but he'll never get the party behind him, he should leave and form a party of like minded people. then the labour party can go become status quo supporters again.
I don't think an attempt to usurp the democratic process would play out well for them. They are a massive bunch of clueless cnuts though, so who knows.
Absolutely with 100% confidence.
Anyone saying this was not about immigration is a liar, a xenophobe, maybe some are borderline racists and some full blown ones but the common ground for everyone is being liars if they deny it.
If anyone wishes to challenge that, my post is here for quoting.
No it was about Sovereignty and £350m per week for the NHS. Keep up.
Well that's clearly bullshit, just as it was clearly bullshit when one of the leave posters said it a few days ago as justification for hard brexit policies. You can't read the minds of half the British population unless you have magical powers.
Also, you can have issues with immigration policy without being a xenophobe, even if your issues are based on an incoherent understanding of the actual immigration policy.
17.5m is not half of the British population. Its not even half of those eligible to vote, or even half of those registered to vote.
Ah right, well if it's only 17.5m people whose minds and intentions you claim to 100% understand then I retract my objection. You're clearly the Gobshite-whisperer and should be listened to above all others.
I am glad we have come to an agreement. This has echoes of the agreement May will get with Europe. A job well done.
Speaking strictly about yourself what was your vote?
Fortunately I am from a country that has thus far avoided the bizarre desire to plunge itself back into the 1950's. Unfortunately this also means I did not have a vote.
The whole exit strategy is dictated by stopping free movement of people. We can't do a Norway or Swiss deal because we'd have to accept FOM. We can't soften some of the economic impact because it wouldn't allow us to curb migration. This vote was a referendum on migration. Racism won
WilL Self summed it up perfectly ''Not Brexiters are racist but almost every racist will be voting for Brexit''. There was also this nazi poster during the campaign
And if isn't enough to why this was a vote on immigration just look at how Theresa May has been operation.
May's behaviour proves that Brexit was in a large part about immigration. It doesn't prove that it was only about immigration though, or that all leave voters had a problem with immigration, or that everyone who had a problem with immigration is racist. You guys are presenting subjective opinions as facts.
This isn't even a political argument, it's basic logic. All fish swim but that doesn't mean that everything that swims is a fish.
This isn't even a political argument, it's basic logic. All fish swim but that doesn't mean that everything that swims is a fish.
When Asian immigrants, or sons and daughters of Asian immigrants, or grandsons and grandaughters of Asian immigrants start to complain about immigration you know what the dominant factor of the referendum is.
There was nothing leavers could understand about the EU bar immigration that is why the motto became "take back control" to give people the sense that they would take the reins of the country back from the immigrants.
It was so patheticly about immigration that even leave MP's who listed reasons such as the ability to get rid of EU regulation could not name a single one they wanted to get rid of when asked.
Granted, we are rather sceptical about poll data these days, however YouGov's recent offering had some good news for the PM.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-five/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Many posters on here have said repeatedly that they do not believe the plan outlined by May was a fair representation of the referendum, yet a majority of declared Remainers think it was. Moreover, approximately half of that same group supporting controls on EU immigration, and in excess of a third agreeing with withdrawal from the single market.
The findings did highlight some confusion regarding Labour's position though. Yet despite this, a left-leaning Eurosceptic is a sorely needed quantity right now. For even assuming that EU FoM is a thing of the past, and that net immigration of 340,000+ is something which the public believe to be unsustainable, it doesn't follow that the present system of profiteering by the Home Office is acceptable. There are battles to be fought now and in the future, just not those of an ineffectual status quo.
Out of interest, what was your reaction to suggestions that barriers to movement could be reduced? Naturally, the devil is in the detail, however i found it to be a rather intriguing prospect.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-five/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Many posters on here have said repeatedly that they do not believe the plan outlined by May was a fair representation of the referendum, yet a majority of declared Remainers think it was. Moreover, approximately half of that same group supporting controls on EU immigration, and in excess of a third agreeing with withdrawal from the single market.
The findings did highlight some confusion regarding Labour's position though. Yet despite this, a left-leaning Eurosceptic is a sorely needed quantity right now. For even assuming that EU FoM is a thing of the past, and that net immigration of 340,000+ is something which the public believe to be unsustainable, it doesn't follow that the present system of profiteering by the Home Office is acceptable. There are battles to be fought now and in the future, just not those of an ineffectual status quo.
Out of interest, what was your reaction to suggestions that barriers to movement could be reduced? Naturally, the devil is in the detail, however i found it to be a rather intriguing prospect.
Last edited:
I still can't believe there are people in this country that believe we're going to come out well from any trade deal we seek to achieve at the minute, we're a black sheep with no legs.
We're very much Little Britain so we've got nothing to bargain with of any worth.
That said, I wish they'd just fecking get on with it. I'm sick of hearing about Brexit now, just get it over with and then we can go from there.
We're very much Little Britain so we've got nothing to bargain with of any worth.
That said, I wish they'd just fecking get on with it. I'm sick of hearing about Brexit now, just get it over with and then we can go from there.
Everyone agrees May's plan was absolutely fantastic. The only flaw most people found was that this is Britain and not La La Land.
I will become a Tory for life should she surprise us all and achieve points 4, 5, 8 and 9 altogether as these are the real hurdles while the rest are just irrelevant. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
I'm looking at the results on the YouGov site, and they're showing that a majority, 48-39, do not want us to do a hard Brexit. Though that was a poll from two weeks back.
Well I'm generally in favour of barriers to movement being reduced. I never had any problem with that within the EU.
My issue with the focus on the US and Trump at the moment is that it's just PR grandstanding by May. Grandstanding that is potentially damaging to the UK's future. We have two years to negotiate a settlement with the EU and her entire focus should be building positive relationships there. Instead there has immediately been unnecessary and unhelpful focus on a potential US trade deal. A deal that cannot even begin to be negotiated until the UK has actually left the EU. And to repeat myself, a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU will almost certainly require unanimous approval from the EU27 which means the UK should consider very carefully it's approach to Trump and the US. May seems to be diving headstrong into a relationship that could alienate the very people she needs to deal with first.
But one of the positives of Brexit for a US-UK trade deal is yes, freedom of movement is something that could be on the table, which it would never be in a US-EU deal. But I would be very concerned about our leverage relative to the US market and what it would mean for our healthcare (or NICE and therefore the financial viability of our healthcare).
Trump is a complete wildcard though. e.g. If he is really dedicated to trying to undermine/destroy the EU, offering Britain an unbelievably rosy Brexit deal is one way to achieve that.
It can and I think it will, although my guess is that it will call them trade talks officially. Trumps EU ambassador is saying it could be done in as little as 90 days.
It won't come into effect until the matters surrounding the EU negotiations are resolved but if those go as badly as most on here are suggesting then we should prepare to walk away from a bad deal and the EU completely.
I think you are wrong about focussing solely on the EU as that is a recipe for disaster given the EU doesn't even believe it can do the deal inside the two-year framework.
The rest of your post is conjecture until we sit down with the new US administration and find out but the EU concerns about the previous deal won't coincide with the UK's and anti US/globalisation propaganda aside the UK can take a look at the details without worrying about protecting EU interests or its outdated positions.
That wasn't quite what was asked. The question was, do you think May's plan respects the result of the referendum, even if its a bad deal for the UK. Since May's plan clearly fulfils the requirement to leave the EU I don't see how else anyone could answer.
Walking away from a market of half a billion people right on your doorstep would be a remarkably stupid strategy and kill your economy stone dead, sooner rather than later.
Not a chance of this, it's like you haven't been listening to a word Trump has said.
There are over 3,000,000 muslims in the UK, and even if you were to take muslims out of the equation, Trump has made it very obvious that he will target isolationism, no chance is he agreeing to any FOM with such a multi-cultural country of approximately 65 millon people.
Last edited:
You'll be dealing with a man who had already claimed to want the US first and he wants to bring jobs back to the UK. A person whose got a long history of bullying less rich/powerful people then him by employing them for contract work only not to pay them afterwards. I wonder what sort of trade deal he will offer considering how desperate the UK is for such a deal.
She's embarrassed herself already and has put the UK is the worst negotiating position imaginable with Trump. Any potential deal would be a pretty awful one for the UK I'm sure.
WilL Self summed it up perfectly ''Not Brexiters are racist but almost every racist will be voting for Brexit''. There was also this nazi poster during the campaign
And if isn't enough to why this was a vote on immigration just look at how Theresa May has been operation.
Look at all the Europeans in the poster behind Farage that they're taking back control of. Even the racists and xenophobes didn't understand what they were voting for, and still don't.
It just needs to be highlighted that that poster won a referendum.WilL Self summed it up perfectly ''Not Brexiters are racist but almost every racist will be voting for Brexit''. There was also this nazi poster during the campaign
And if isn't enough to why this was a vote on immigration just look at how Theresa May has been operation.
I think that is probably true for a percentage of them but i don't agree thats everyone who voted leave.
And even those you did vote leave on immigration i think their is a large portion of them would have voted remain if their had been a bit more willingness to discuss and have dialogue about how free movement affects different areas, different economic situations differently and be prepared to review the way some companies and industries are exploiting it.
I know most people on this thread hate it when any one even raises the idea that that free movement might have any negative effects at all, and anyone who thinks it does is thick and racist, and im sure i will get enough abuse to make me avoid this thread for another few months, but hey thats my opinion.
It largely was but I know people who don't like The EU as an institution. Many of the EU Directives are corrupt anti-small business/anti-competition controls.