Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Mihajlovic]

It's a mess.

14 weeks annual leave lads.

Also, what exactly is the relevance of pointing out that Britain's maternity leave is above the 'EU minimum'?! It's not as if the government promises to increase maternity leave as soon as we're out because the EU is restricting us in any ways. It's just a prescribed minimum and you can go above it as much as you like, you just can't go below it!

 

[Mihajlovic]

Point 5.3 of the paper: "However, in the last decade or so, we have seen record levels of long term net migration in the UK and that sheer volume has given rise to public concern about pressure on public services, like schools and our infrastructure, especially housing..."

Would I be wrong in expecting just a little bit of raw data here, some numbers, what exactly is the cost of this uncontrolled migration and how it's ruining the economy? And exactly how much better off Britain will be once immigration is controlled? All it implies is that Britain is leaving the EU because of a "public concern".

 

[Kentonio]

Point 5.3 of the paper: "However, in the last decade or so, we have seen record levels of long term net migration in the UK and that sheer volume has given rise to public concern about pressure on public services, like schools and our infrastructure, especially housing..."

Would I be wrong in expecting just a little bit of raw data here, some numbers, what exactly is the cost of this uncontrolled migration and how it's ruining the economy? And exactly how much better off Britain will be once immigration is controlled? All it implies is that Britain is leaving the EU because of a "public concern".

Which is precisely accurate in truth. It was never about anything factual.

 

[Bury Red]

The "public concerns" about immigration's impact on services rather than an actual impact. The "feeling" that we surrendered our sovereignty to European rule in spite of the stated fact that we had not.

With such a solid basis to their argument I can see how the victors should be allowed to revel in their magnanimity and us losers should just suck it up and respect them whilst they make Britain great again. Righto lads, wake me up when the job's done you bunch of lying xenophobic fecktards

 

[jackofalltrades]

"Public concern about pressure on public services like schools..."

So the solution is simple - invest more in the public services.

 

[Jippy]

The "public concerns" about immigration's impact on services rather than an actual impact. The "feeling" that we surrendered our sovereignty to European rule in spite of the stated fact we had not.

With such a solid basis to their argument I can see how the victors should be allowed to revel in their magnanimity and us losers should just suck it up and respect them whilst they make Britain great again. Righto lads, wake me up when the job's done you bunch of lying xenophobic fecktards

Did bendy banana woman not win you over with her understandable justifications for leaving? Her comment was the perfect microcosm of small-minded thinking.

 

[Mihajlovic]

5.4 We will design our immigration system...
5.6 We will create an immigration system...
5.9 We are considering very carefully the options that are open to us to gain control of the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU.

I actually thought the White Paper would outline in just a bit more detail what that future immigration system will look like.

 

[Mihajlovic]

5.9
We are considering very carefully the options that are open to us to gain control of the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU. As part of that, it is important that we understand the impacts on the different sectors of the economy and the labour market. We will, therefore, ensure that businesses and communities have the opportunity to contribute their views. Equally, we will need to understand the potential impacts of any proposed changes in all the parts of the UK. So we will build a comprehensive picture of the needs and interests of all parts of the UK and look to develop a system that works for all.

Sorry to go on about this and happy to be corrected- shouldn't all the parts which I bolded already been long understood?!

5.10
Implementing any new immigration arrangements for EU nationals and the support they receive will be complex and Parliament will have an important role in considering these matters further. There may be a phased process of implementation to prepare for the new arrangements. This would give businesses and individuals enough time to plan and prepare for those new arrangements.

In other words, we don't even understand the impact immigration is having, cannot evaluate benefits vs disbenefits, we don't understand what the risks are, we will change 'something', but it might take us xyz years to implement it. What a fecking plan.

 

[Aboutreika18]

It's hilariously bad.

It reminds me of the days of adding random waffle into my coursework to make it look longer.

 

[devilish]

And the funny thing is that it totally disregard the opinion of the other side of the negotiation process. What makes them think the EU will be so patient?

 

[B20]

From the outside looking in, it looks like the UK government is basically a bunch of interns asked to write up papers that sound all political and stuff. Oh, and if you could please extend the deadline for handing in the papers, that'd be real nice as well.

 

[devilish]

TBF its very difficult to write about something you don't know about. The UK negotiations so far lack 1 key element ie what the EU is willing to concede.

 

[Kentonio]

They should have just told Parliament that the dog ate their white paper and bought themselves a few extra weeks.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They should have just told Parliament that the dog ate their white paper and bought themselves a few extra weeks.

I think a dog wrote the white paper, that's an injustice to dogs though.

The victors = the conservatives guaranteed to be in power until 2025
The losers = the rest of the UK
.

 

[jackofalltrades]

There's been a misunderstanding. It wasn't a White Paper, it was simply white paper.

 

[Mihajlovic]

The entire section on protecting workers' rights is very misleading. First of all it points out that "our labour market is a great strength of our economy: there are 31.8 million people in work in the UK and the employment rate is at a near-record high." Fantastic. And that's despite the fact that Britain is a member of the horrific tyranical EU.

Secondly, the paper brags about statutory annual and maternity leave, which in the UK is higher than outlined in the 2003 EU Working Time Directive. But the whole point of the Working Time Directive was to guarantee to workers a minimum daily rest period, a minimum annual leave, a maximum of wekly working hours, etc. If any EU member chooses to go beyond the minimum requirement, they are completely free to do so. This is also acknowledged in a footnote of the White Paper, section 7: "Individual Member States in the EU may exceed the EU minimum." How on earth can any of this be used as an argument that favours UK's departure from the EU? It's almost as if the White Paper is trying to provide the assurance that British workers' rights will not get worse once Britain leaves the EU. At least at the moment those rights are safeguarded and guaranteed by the EU.

 

[Fener1907]

It's hilariously bad.

It reminds me of the days of adding random waffle into my coursework to make it look longer.

Corbyn has always reminded me of a teacher coasting in the latter part of his career, so I reckon he demanded a word count. Problem is, he's the teacher nobody actually respects, so bollocks to him expecting anything meaningful.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Corbyn has always reminded me of a teacher coasting in the latter part of his career, so I reckon he demanded a word count. Problem is, he's the teacher nobody actually respects, so bollocks to him expecting anything meaningful.

He is that teacher who goes home at night and finds the back of his shirt splattered with ink.

 

[PedroMendez]

5.9
We are considering very carefully the options that are open to us to gain control of the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU. As part of that, it is important that we understand the impacts on the different sectors of the economy and the labour market. We will, therefore, ensure that businesses and communities have the opportunity to contribute their views. Equally, we will need to understand the potential impacts of any proposed changes in all the parts of the UK. So we will build a comprehensive picture of the needs and interests of all parts of the UK and look to develop a system that works for all.

Sorry to go on about this and happy to be corrected- shouldn't all the parts which I bolded already been long understood?!

5.10
Implementing any new immigration arrangements for EU nationals and the support they receive will be complex and Parliament will have an important role in considering these matters further. There may be a phased process of implementation to prepare for the new arrangements. This would give businesses and individuals enough time to plan and prepare for those new arrangements.

In other words, we don't even understand the impact immigration is having, cannot evaluate benefits vs disbenefits, we don't understand what the risks are, we will change 'something', but it might take us xyz years to implement it. What a fecking plan.

well, their problem is that the economic impact of european migration to the UK is fairly well understood. While these kinds of studies are always a bit dodgy, their findings are fairly clear and just one google-klick away.

Spoiler: one example of the findings of such a study

Immigration to the UK since 2000 has been of substantial net fiscal benefit, with immigrants contributing more than they have received in benefits and transfers. This is true for immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe as well as the rest of the EU.

Professor Christian Dustmann

The research provides an in-depth analysis of the net fiscal contribution of UK immigrants, drawing a distinction between immigrants from the 10 Central and East European EU member states that joined since 2004 (the A10), other European Economic Area (EEA) immigrants and non-EEA immigrants. Its main findings are:

• The positive net fiscal contribution of recent immigrant cohorts (those arriving since 2000) from the A10 countries amounted to almost £5bn, while the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn. Recent non-European immigrants’ net contribution was likewise positive, at about £5bn. Over the same period, the net fiscal contribution of native UK born was negative, amounting to almost £617bn.

• Immigrants who arrived since 2000 were 43% less likely than natives to receive state benefits or tax credits. They were also 7% less likely to live in social housing.

• European immigrants who arrived since 2000 are on average better educated than natives (in 2011, 25% of immigrants from A10 countries and 62% of those from EU-15 countries had a university degree, while the comparable share is 24% among natives) and have higher employment rates (81% for A10, 70% for EU-15 and 70% for UK natives in 2011).

• The value of the education of immigrants in the UK labour market who arrived since 2000 and that has been paid for in the immigrants’ origin countries amounts to £6.8bn over the period between 2000 and 2011. By contributing to ‘pure’ public goods (such as defence or basic research), immigrants arriving since 2000 have saved the UK taxpayer an additional £8.5bn over the same period.

• Considering all immigrants who were living in the UK over the years between 1995 and 2011, a period over which the net fiscal contribution of natives was negative (and accumulated to about £591bn), EEA immigrants contributed 10% more than natives (in relative terms), while non-EEA immigrants’ contributions were almost 9% lower.

• Over the same period from 1995 to 2011, immigrants who lived in the UK endowed the UK labour market with human capital that would have cost about £49bn if it were produced through the UK education system, and contributed about £82bn to fixed or ‘pure’ public goods.

It takes time to come up with an assessment, that is somehow ignoring all of that.

 

[711]

It seems when May said 'no running commentary' all that time ago most caftards forgot it the next day. No idea why, to negotiate in public would be plain stupid.

 

[Fener1907]

It seems when May said 'no running commentary' all that time ago most caftards forgot it the next day. No idea why, to negotiate in public would be plain stupid.

"I don't have a coherent plan, and people defending my position will use simplistic analogies like not showing your cards when playing a poker game."

 

[Chorley1974]

It's hilariously bad.

It reminds me of the days of adding random waffle into my coursework to make it look longer.

It's pretty much like any government document.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It seems when May said 'no running commentary' all that time ago most caftards forgot it the next day. No idea why, to negotiate in public would be plain stupid.

We know what her plan is, so does the EU, to try to have everything she can from the EU, but she's already been told that is not possible, i.e. the Cake and Eat it Plan.

The question is, when she doesn't get what she wants, what's the next step? Surely the British public , both Brexiters and Remainers , are entitled to know what is the plan then - because there is no Plan B other than she won't accept a bad deal and a vague waffle in the White Paper.

 

[Will Absolute]

We know what her plan is, so does the EU, to try to have everything she can from the EU, but she's already been told that is not possible, i.e. the Cake and Eat it Plan.

The question is, when she doesn't get what she wants, what's the next step? Surely the British public , both Brexiters and Remainers , are entitled to know what is the plan then - because there is no Plan B other than she won't accept a bad deal and a vague waffle in the White Paper.

Why not just wait and see? Rather than prejudging the outcome of a negotiation which hasn't even begun.

 

[Xeno]

"I don't have a coherent plan, and people defending my position will use simplistic analogies like not showing your cards when playing a poker game."

Even when she folds.

 

[711]

"I don't have a coherent plan, and people defending my position will use simplistic analogies like not showing your cards when playing a poker game."

As easy as a simplistic analysis of the situation such as 'not having a coherent plan' ?

 

[Fener1907]

As easy as a simplistic analysis of the situation such as 'not having a coherent plan' ?

Checkmate! Somebody's playing chess, not poker. Really, though, what plan? The White Paper's been dissected and the verdict is that it's pretty underwhelming.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Why not just wait and see? Rather than prejudging the outcome of a negotiation which hasn't even begun.

She has been told repeatedly that she won't get any special deal and whatever deal she does get will not be close to the deal the UK has now.
Thus what happens then , someone has to make provisions for when the EU say no.

There should be plenty of discussions in parliament soon asking exactly these questions.. what if..?

The way the white paper is worded is typical of the arrogance that suggests that the EU will be begging the UK to agree to their terms, I think May will found out that the reverse is the reality.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Interesting that vegetable rationing has been introduced in some supermarkets because of supply problems from Spain. Supposing we had to import food from further abroad ?

 

[Fener1907]

Interesting that vegetable rationing has been introduced in some supermarkets because of supply problems from Spain. Supposing we had to import food from further abroad ?

Just shout at the soil that it should be proud to be British and randomly mumble some inane shite about being in control. It'll grow anything you want after that.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Just shout at the soil that it should be proud to be British and randomly mumble some inane shite about being in control. It'll grow anything you want after that.

Something like "Arise lettuce" ?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Interesting that vegetable rationing has been introduced in some supermarkets because of supply problems from Spain. Supposing we had to import food from further abroad ?

A glimpse of the future.

Strange, we have no problems here.

 

[Fener1907]

Something like "Arise lettuce" ?

Could be. Tell it that you have all of these plans about how you're going to incorporate it into a great meal, but neglect to mention that you're actually a pretty shit cook. Stupid vegetables are easy to trick.

 

[jackofalltrades]

A glimpse of the future.

Strange, we have no problems here.

It's always a good idea for an island that has to import most if its food to abandon the organisation that makes it easy and cheap. Boris will have an excuse to send the gunboats up the Guadalquivir.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Could be. Tell it that you have all of these plans about how you're going to incorporate it into a great meal, but neglect to mention that you're actually a pretty shit cook. Stupid vegetables are easy to trick.

Arise may be a bit fancy for a mere lettuce, we should save it for King Edward's.

 

[711]

Potatoes is the caf's equivalent of Godwin's law.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Something like "Arise lettuce" ?

Or "Brussels, sprout!"

 

[jackofalltrades]

Or "Brussels, sprout!"

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Interesting that vegetable rationing has been introduced in some supermarkets because of supply problems from Spain. Supposing we had to import food from further abroad ?

We are blaming continental weather on Brexit now? I don't think even Cameron went that far during the campaign.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

It's always a good idea for an island that has to import most if its food to abandon the organisation that makes it easy and cheap. Boris will have an excuse to send the gunboats up the Guadalquivir.

We haven't left yet, am I doing this right?

So this great system isn't working all that well and given the taxpayer subsidies, it isn't as cheap as world market price. If this issue tells us anything then it is that the UK should look outside the EU for additional suppliers.