Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Virgil]

Do you know what Greece was like before they joined the EU?

The Greek economy was in a darned sight better shape before they joined the EEC in 1981 than it is now. France's Giscard d'Estaing who played an instrumental role in ensuring that Greece was welcomed into the community has since stated that supporting the Greek membership bid had been a mistake.

In an interview with De Spiegel d'Estaing said the following.

'To be perfectly frank, it was a mistake to accept Greece. Greece simply wasn't ready. Greece is basically an Oriental country. Helmut, (Helmut Schmidt the German Chancellor at the time was also in on the interview) I recall that you expressed skepticism before Greece was accepted into the European Community in 1981. You were wiser than me. The Euro Group cannot be allowed to expand endlessly.'

Helmut himself also said in that interview

"When the Maastricht Treaty was signed in 1992, the EU had 12 member states. And these 12 made the mistake of inviting everyone in Europe to join, and even become a member of the monetary union. The currency wasn't actually born until 10 years later. Now, the EU has grown to 27 members, the majority of whom decided to adopt the Euro............ It was a mistake to subsequently accept 16 or 17 of them".

Now I willingly acknowledge that Britain was one of the nations who approved Greece's membership as did the other member states so yes some responsibility must fall on individual governments. Yet it was down to the EEC as a collective that Greece was allowed to join the union and was encouraged later to join the Euro therefore the establishment has a lot to answer for.

In a funny sort of way that is part of the problem for me not just over remain or leave but over politics and politicians in general. Honesty only seems to come to the fore when they are no longer in politics. Shame really but there you are.

My last post on this subject (who said good) One thing that age has taught me is that you can rarely change the opinion of folks as there are always 'alternative facts'

Oh and just so you know I am a remainer who realises I lost and have to make the best of it. For as Winston Churchill reportedly said 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others'

 

[Mozza]

The EU, Greece joined the EC in the early 80's, but that was a very different institution.

The original composition of the United States was very different from what it is today because institutions evolve

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I'm happily telling that to every single Greek I ever see. And they agree.
They've brought this upon themselves and can be lucky the EU bailed them out again and again. Without the EU, the country would be some third world shithole already.

Those were just more bail outs of the banks disguised as support for Greece. More than 90% of the money only passed through Greece. These banks got a lot of interest, because a loan to Greece was supposed to be more risky. But even the banks and other financial institutions who bought Greek debts after the crisis for junk prices got their money back.

The Greek economy was in a darned sight better shape before they joined the EEC in 1981 than what it is now.
Now I willingly acknowledge that Britain was one of the nations who approved Greece's membership as did the other member states so yes some responsibility must fall on individual governments. Yet it was down to the EEC as a collective that Greece was allowed to join the union and was encouraged later to join the Euro therefore the establishment has a lot to answer for.

Greece joining the euro reflects much worse on the EU. Greece is blamed for cooking the books, but it was Goldman Sachs who came up with the financial 'innovations' to get Greece in the EU. Mario Draghi, now as president of the ECB forcing this disastrous economic program on Greece, used to be one of the top guys at Goldman Sachs Europe. It's the same bank Barroso works for now. The EU checked the Greek books, and said they were all right. Every finance minister in the EU could check it, every member of a national parliament could check it, and they did. There were some who said this was bad news, and Greece should be kept out of the Euro, but that's just not how it works in the EU, the Euro was an important step for further European integration and more power over the member states for the EU. If everyone is to blame, no one is to blame, except for the ordinary Greek citizens of course.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Not reaching any sort of deal will cost a hell of a lot more in the mid to long term than a "divorce bill".

I agree no deal will cost both sides more.

 

[Oscie]

I agree no deal will cost both sides more.

And of course one side has the capacity to absorb a loss more than the other does.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Just saw this on Facebook

Spoiler: out

For their own sake, hope their wish doesn't come true

 

[Stanley Road]

You have a Facebook account? Thats just mental.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You have a Facebook account? Thats just mental.

Only to stay in touch with relatives and friends - rarely post on it - it's good for a laugh

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

And of course one side has the capacity to absorb a loss more than the other does.

I wouldn't want to test that either way when the alternative is better for both parties.

 

[Stanley Road]

Only to stay in touch with relatives and friends - rarely post on it - it's good for a laugh

Well i think most people that use it are dicks and form their opinions from what they read on it. I'm hoping you arent like that.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well i think most people that use it are dicks and form their opinions from what they read on it. I'm hoping you arent like that.

It's hilarious really, people post on it with their phones and you know exactly what they're doing or where they are at any time of the day. I am not influenced by anything anyone says, have said on here before I inform myself of the reality of things.
But it is a good snapshot of the stupidity of the population in general.
Some comments are mind-bogglingly moronic.

Don't have twitter or any other social media

 

[Chorley1974]

But the EU is not how it's always been, it is a comparatively recent project which still has to develop , still has to improve. The Uk could have helped to improve it from within.

I don't see how by being outside on its own, the life of an average Brit is going to improve by leaving. As you know I believe the opposite will happen. I've said before, be careful what you wish for.

The UK did try to control immigration from the EU and took it to the Eu, and they fecked the UK off. I'm careful what I wish for based on your wise counsel, but just saying.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The UK did try to control immigration from the EU and took it to the Eu, and they fecked the UK off. I'm careful what I wish for based on your wise counsel, but just saying.

They have control of immigration to the extent that as long as the immigrants comply with the requirements to enter and stay in the UK, whether they don't enforce deportation or refusal of entry of those that don't comply then that is down to the UK. The Uk doesn't have open borders.

 

[Chorley1974]

They have control of immigration to the extent that as long as the immigrants comply with the requirements to enter and stay in the UK, whether they don't enforce deportation or refusal of entry of those that don't comply then that is down to the UK. The Uk doesn't have open borders.

Yeah we know that, the Uk did ask to reduce our net numbers, which was refused.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yeah we know that, the Uk did ask to reduce our net numbers, which was refused.

How do you have net numbers, as long as the immigrants comply, that is a regulation in itself on the numbers , there is no limit.

 

[Chorley1974]

How do you have net numbers, as long as the immigrants comply, that is a regulation in itself on the numbers , there is no limit.

we asked for relief on the number and were decked off.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

we asked for relief on the number and were decked off.

I understand what you mean, but this is impossible to implement by the EU.
The Uk had already opted out of Schengen and the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty.

I've seen various reports suggesting that the UK will become the most populous country in Western Europe within the next 10/15 years, overtaking Germany and France. Now assuming Germany and France would still be in the EU, the UK would have left, the Uk are taking much fewer refugees and the birth and death rates are similar, plus the Uk have closed borders ,what is the reason why so many people want to come to the UK, must be the weather.

 

[JPRouve]

I understand what you mean, but this is impossible to implement by the EU.
The Uk had already opted out of Schengen and the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty.

I've seen various reports suggesting that the UK will become the most populous country in Western Europe within the next 10/15 years, overtaking Germany and France. Now assuming Germany and France would still be in the EU, the UK would have left, the Uk are taking much fewer refugees and the birth and death rates are similar, plus the Uk have closed borders ,what is the reason why so many people want to come to the UK, must be the weather.

One of the brexiters talked about the benefits that are given easily.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

One of the brexiters talked about the benefits that are given easily.

Yes, that's the reputation the UK has and whose fault is that.

 

[Stanley Road]

They have control of immigration to the extent that as long as the immigrants comply with the requirements to enter and stay in the UK, whether they don't enforce deportation or refusal of entry of those that don't comply then that is down to the UK. The Uk doesn't have open borders.

Well it does have open borders if you only have to show an eu passport. Schengen just means you dont have to show at the other end. Its a minute detail.

 

[Stanley Road]

I understand what you mean, but this is impossible to implement by the EU.
The Uk had already opted out of Schengen and the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty.

I've seen various reports suggesting that the UK will become the most populous country in Western Europe within the next 10/15 years, overtaking Germany and France. Now assuming Germany and France would still be in the EU, the UK would have left, the Uk are taking much fewer refugees and the birth and death rates are similar, plus the Uk have closed borders ,what is the reason why so many people want to come to the UK, must be the weather.

The language

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well it does have open borders if you only have to show an eu passport. Schengen just means you dont have to show at the other end. Its a minute detail.

That's why there's endless queues at the airports which you,I know, have experienced and questioned where have you come from and to non-Uk, where and what are you doing in the UK

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The language

It's amazing how Brexiters complain about all these immigrants not being able to speak English. A lot of Dutch people speak English well, this is not the case with a lot of other nationalities

 

[711]

I understand what you mean, but this is impossible to implement by the EU.
The Uk had already opted out of Schengen and the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty.

I've seen various reports suggesting that the UK will become the most populous country in Western Europe within the next 10/15 years, overtaking Germany and France. Now assuming Germany and France would still be in the EU, the UK would have left, the Uk are taking much fewer refugees and the birth and death rates are similar, plus the Uk have closed borders ,what is the reason why so many people want to come to the UK, must be the weather.

Easy to guess what Brexiters might say, more interesting is what do Remainers think?

 

[matherto]

The most developed English speaking country in Europe, it's not really a surprise that a lot of immigrants want to come here.

Better chance of getting a decent job in theory or if you don't want to do that we're comparatively light compared to some of the other countries on our treatment of immigrants, and we give them benefits to live off. For good or for bad it's just what we do. I don't blame people for wanting to come here and try their luck.

We just happen to have a sizeable bunch of people in this country that like to shift the blame for their own terrible lives and immigrants are an easy target. These people tend to have latent racism and xenophobia simmering just below the surface and immigration allows them to voice their uninformed opinions without fear of being persecuted for it. The Brexit vote was a perfect platform for them, not that I believe all people that voted out are racist or xenophobic.

Thing is, I'd do anything to get out of the UK so it always staggers me how people from other countries view us with such glee. Krakow was a wonderful place full of absolutely beautiful people and yet for a lot of the Polish we spoke to, they couldn't understand why we go over to visit.

I guess it's the same everywhere. It's almost instinctive for us to slag off where we're from. Whenever I met new people at uni the first thing would be to put down wherever they're from. The only change was when I mentioned I was from St. Helens and they'd all go 'ahhhh....oh....yeah, maybe where I'm from isn't that bad...'

 

[Bury Red]

Easy to guess what Brexiters might say, more interesting is what do Remainers think?

Said my piece in the run up to the referendum and I don't think anything's changed.

Why do so many migrants come to the UK, it's not the rest of Europe pointing them in our direction and giving them a shove no matter how much you might like to think it is, so what draws them in?

It could be our media which on a daily basis leads them to believe we give away houses, healthcare and wads of cash to all comers, ironically usually the same media that want to keep Ingerlund for the Ingerlish. The truth, we don't, we really do not give away these things. Yes, an EU legal migrant coming here to work can use our health service should they fall sick and would be supported by social services if they fell on hard times just as you or I could in any other EU country. The truth of the matter however is that legal immigrants in the UK pay far more in taxes than they draw from the welfare pot, it's our own idle tw@s who suck the country dry. The truth of the matter is UK citizens living in other EU countries take more money out of those countries combined welfare pots than EU migrants take out of the UK's. The truth of the matter is that if you are an illegal migrant you get nothing, you are scared, hunted, harried and most likely exploited by criminal gangs and modern day slavers to the point that most look to escape and get back home within a year or two of arrival.

Are we this idyllic land of milk and honey, are the streets paved with gold, is that why people want to come? Some might believe it on their way here but the reality is that we really aren't. The wages are lower than most of the rest of Western Europe, our working conditions are worse, our cost of living, particularly housing, is far higher and often the benefits you might receive from social services or health care you receive is worse. Oh and the weather is fecking terrible, the roads are in perpetual gridlock and the country's full of whinging right wing NIMBYs who believe we're the last vestige of Eden on God's green earth. Most EU migrants working here come from poorer countries in Eastern Europe and grind out a living making as much as they can to send back home or go back and live comfortably with after a few years here, all the ones I've met are miserable and can't wait to head home yet their families at home still believe they are living in the lap of luxury, probably with a private pool and chauffeur.

Apart from the press lies, and even the most desperate Romanian, Pole or Hungarian must realise that all press lie, why do they believe we are this land of luxury? We're one of the more charitable countries in the world and do genuinely try to help when there are problems, try working with a charity though and you also see how wasteful and stupid we are as a nation and why the desperate might perceive us as being spoilt. My family and I worked for several years with a team of firemen initially rebuilding an orphanage but also eventually a hospital and school in a small, desperate village in Transylvania just after Ceasescu's fall. Initially donations were building materials and the things we needed and free loan of the trucks to get things out there but when word got around there were some very strange donations, we had a full stainless steel operating theatre, medical utensils, glassware, even a fully motorized dentists chair and drills etc all unused that was donated by a national health trust because it was approaching the end of the budget year and they had not used it but could not afford to have the following year's budget trimmed if it was discovered in their stores. We had a full range of Adidas trainers that had been scheduled for shredding because the public feedback was not good and they refused to lower prices and potentially damage the brand. Most ironically we stripped out a cold war nuclear bunker underneath a hospital that was being decommissioned taking the beds we slept on in Romania, much of the food we ate and tonnes of other stuff we found good homes for. The crushed desperate people who received this aid could surely be forgiven for thinking that if 200+ Brits could give up their annual holidays for 4 or 5 years to do this work for them and our nation could afford to give away so much stuff then surely our streets must be paved with gold.

 

[711]

Said my piece in the run up to the referendum and I don't think anything's changed.

It's a bit hard to read, but stripping out the hyperbole and abuse I think you're saying they expect to be a lot better off. I agree, and thanks for the answer.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Easy to guess what Brexiters might say, more interesting is what do Remainers think?

Basically what Bury said, having met/spoken people from all round the world who have never seen the UK , their general impression of the Uk is nothing like reality, only what they've seen from TV shows or films or books .

 

[711]

Basically what Bury said, having met/spoken people from all round the world who have never seen the UK , their general impression of the Uk is nothing like reality, only what they've seen from TV shows or films or books .

Yes, people have said that to me, though visitors and students rather than long-term immigrants, who mostly stay, so presumably find it preferable.

 

[Bury Red]

Basically what Bury said, having met/spoken people from all round the world who have never seen the UK , their general impression of the Uk is nothing like reality, only what they've seen from TV shows or films or books .

TV, film and literature was the one group I didn't pick up on and whilst we are honestly self deprecating in a lot of what we produce be it the self parody and griminess of Fawlty Towers, Rising Damp, Shameless etc or the OTT grit of Lock Stock or Trainspotting or even Dickens I'm sure many arrive expecting everything to be as quaint as Morse or Midsomer or like something out of Harry Potter.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

TV, film and literature was the one group I didn't pick up on and whilst we are honestly self deprecating in a lot of what we produce be it the self parody and griminess of Fawlty Towers, Rising Damp, Shameless etc or the OTT grit of Lock Stock or Trainspotting or even Dickens I'm sure many arrive expecting everything to be as quaint as Morse or Midsomer or like something out of Harry Potter.

Funny you should say that, a French couple who are friends of ours have never been to the UK but want us to take them to the UK and show them the villages with the thatched cottages as seen in Midsomer.

 

[PedroMendez]

yes, they are too stupid, because all those idiots have never heard of modern information technology. Quite patronising, but I wouldn't have expect anything else. The people I know around the world - especially those who move (legally) to work - have a pretty good understanding of what they get into. Thats why they come and thats why they stay.

 

[Bury Red]

Funny you should say that, a French couple who are friends of ours have never been to the UK but want us to take them to the UK and show them the villages with the thatched cottages as seen in Midsomer.

Pretty much did that tour with an American colleague and his wife last summer tied in with visiting a number of coastal engineering projects and areas of interest. The highlight though had to be the trip to Stonehenge where, after explaining that they'd not be allowed to touch the stones or enter the circle as only druids are allowed in these days they were convinced I was pulling their chain over the druids even though I had explained that they were mostly ageing hippies in fancy dress on their Harley's these days. We rocked up in the car park and there's an old hippy climbing off his Harley and donning a raven feather costume before heading to join the rest in the circle.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

yes, they are too stupid, because all those idiots have never heard of modern information technology. Quite patronising, but I wouldn't have expect anything else. The people I know around the world - especially those who move (legally) to work - have a pretty good understanding of what they get into. Thats why they come and thats why they stay.

What you on about, they all want to have a go in one of those TARDIS things.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

yes, they are too stupid, because all those idiots have never heard of modern information technology. Quite patronising, but I wouldn't have expect anything else. The people I know around the world - especially those who move (legally) to work - have a pretty good understanding of what they get into. Thats why they come and thats why they stay.

I didn't think the UK had a problem with skilled, educated immigrants , only the uneducated, unskilled leeches that spend their time sponging off the UK benefits system.

 

[PedroMendez]

I didn't think the UK had a problem with skilled, educated immigrants , only the uneducated, unskilled leeches that spend their time sponging off the UK benefits system.

the uk doesn't have a problem with migrants. Neither high nor low skilled. The system works well. The issue is that the benefits and the costs of migration are not uniformly shared. Telling the people, who bear the costs to suck it is just stupid. But sure, tell yourself that people from Poland only know the UK from TV shows. That view is so detached from reality that I don't even know how anyone could possibly believe that.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

the uk doesn't have a problem with migrants. Neither high nor low skilled. The system works well. The issue is that the benefits and the costs of migration are not uniformly shared. Telling the people, who bear the costs to suck it is just stupid. But sure, tell yourself that people from Poland only know the UK from TV shows. That view is so detached from reality that I don't even know how anyone could possibly believe that.

Well this is good to know, lol and we're detached from reality

 

[Smores]

No 10s approach of brazenly denying parliament any say in the brexit deal is an interesting approach. We basically have someone who wasn't elected blackmailing parliament into accepting her choices.

Its fecking mental.

 

[711]

Pretty much did that tour with an American colleague and his wife last summer tied in with visiting a number of coastal engineering projects and areas of interest. The highlight though had to be the trip to Stonehenge where, after explaining that they'd not be allowed to touch the stones or enter the circle as only druids are allowed in these days they were convinced I was pulling their chain over the druids even though I had explained that they were mostly ageing hippies in fancy dress on their Harley's these days. We rocked up in the car park and there's an old hippy climbing off his Harley and donning a raven feather costume before heading to join the rest in the circle.

In case you go again, you can go inside the circle and touch the stones etc, but it's outside the normal opening hours, and you have to book well in advance. I last went in 1964, no barriers at all then of course.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No 10s approach of brazenly denying parliament any say in the brexit deal is an interesting approach. We basically have someone who wasn't elected blackmailing parliament into accepting her choices.

Its fecking mental.

When they said they didn't want EU laws, they forgot to mention they don't want any laws.
Nationalistic dictatorship blaming immigrants for their woes, sounds vaguely familiar.