Which goes to my assertion that they look at finances first and football second.
Look at the reaction of the fans! Does it look like they're benefitting from financial stability?
Should Wenger be sacked?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Look at the reaction of the fans! Does it look like they're benefitting from financial stability?
The board looks at finances first because that's what most boards generally do. It's a myth that Arsene Wenger is happy with not winning the league. If the money was in place, he'd sign the same players that other top clubs have signed. He doesn't set his own budgets. Ever since moving away from Highbury, he's achieved CL qualification, which has in turn managed to pay the cost of the Emirates.
They need to be more competitive with transfer fees and wages, but that isn't within a manager's purview. I go back to my original point, everything he's achieved at that club, including building a new stadium on the back of his own success, deserves respect. Respect in this context should at least amount to not being sacked. I think he should leave because the fans have turned on him, and perhaps he's too comfortable with viewing the top four as an achievement, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's an enormous amount of regret around the Emirates after he leaves.
The board won't suddenly shatter their wage structure and provide a new manager with hundreds of millions to spend. Whoever comes in will have to work miracles operating under the same conditions as Wenger. With that in mind, Jardim of Monaco could be a could bet. He'll promote youth from club ranks and sign based on his own scouting intelligence, and should, in general, be OK with working under similar conditions. It'll give the fans a change, but most of the negatives they attribute to Wenger, can, in my opinion, easily be leveled at the board.
Re: Top 4
Nobody can guarantee anything where football results are concerned. But if the players have given up on the manager, then they are less motivated to play thus less likely to win games. It's not about who they get right now, it's more about the current man leaving. Like I said, look at Leicester.
Also, I have no doubt that Wenger is a great manager to have for top 4 finish, but only if the players are motivated enough to play for him. For the first time in Wenger's tenure, his position and authority are unstable.
Re: Sanchez
Using Wenger's sacking as an example and offering him a bumper deal, the board might convince him that they have ambition and do want to win things. If they leave things as is, it shows they are content with being a club that is never in contention of the title or the Champions League. Again, there's no guarantee Sanchez will want to stay regardless. But the longer Wenger remains the more damage is done.
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Leicester is a unique set of circumstances. The team that won the league was more or less in place before Ranieri, the same team Pearson won however many games on the bounce with to avoid relegation the previous season. They carried that title wining form into the new campaign and won the league with Ranieri at the helm. Ranieri deserves a lot of credit for that achievement, but he didn't overhaul the squad or anything.
If Wenger loses the dressing room, then I'd be amazed if a new manager could rectify that situation so far into a season. He's signed all of those players, as well as promoted some, over the last decade or so. He's quite literally created that team, whereas Ranieri inherited his. That's a big difference. If he's to leave, reason should dictate that it happens in the summer, as a caretaker manager won't improve much of anything. In fact, they're more likely to suffer a negative effect from his departure than a positive one, based on the influence Wenger has had in that squad's formation. Arsenal's entire culture is reducible to Wenger. The same way ours was reducible to Ferguson. Any manger who stays that long exerts influences in ways that aren't easily quantifiable. Look at our collapse post Fergie. That was with the same squad, and in later seasons, with a better squad, than the one Ferguson left as title winners.
The problem with offering Sanchez a bumper deal, is that if the board had intentions to shatter their wage structure, they'd have done it with Wenger in charge.
A lot of good points. Remember I'm playing devil's advocate I don't entirely agree with all that I'm saying. However the bolded one, I don't agree with.
If the Club decide to part with Wenger then they are exposed to the risk that United were exposed to after Fergie. Namely, of dropping out of the top 4. Also remember, in the last few years the premium you pay for world class ability/reputation players has increased considerably. From a business point of view, it'd be madness to not retain their best players in the transition to the new manager. The cost of not shattering their wage structure pales in comparison to the cost of losing top talent to expiring contracts and missing out on CL money.
And I guess sacking Wenger goes hand-in-hand with changing some of the practices that Wenger put in place (or at least is strongly associated with), like the current wage structure. If the board are happy to remain where they are, then it makes no sense to sack Wenger just as a token gesture to the fans. It'd only make sense as part of a new, bold approach to running the club which would require them to change the current wage structure.
This is the crux of the issue, as far as I can tell. The way I see it is like this: The board are responsible for the wage structure as well as investment into squad acquisition. Wenger is just a symbol of fan frustrations which more aptly reside with the board. The point here is that the board overwhelmingly supports Wenger, and has done for over a decade. They're not unhappy with his contribution, in fact they're delighted with it. This seems to underline their motives fairly explicitly. If they wanted to make changes in terms of wage structure and investment, why would they first demand that Wenger should leave? Why wouldn't they have made the first steps to achieving those goals with Wenger in charge?
I think the board is content with the current situation, with only fan unrest being bothersome to them. They may have to shatter their wage structure because the prospect of losing Sanchez (and possibly Ozil) would be too much to bear after the previous 7-8 years where they lost their best players to rival teams. Yet I don't see how sacking Wenger is a prerequisite to achieving any of these aims, unless they decide that they don't trust him with increased spending, which would be bizarre, as he's kept them more than competitive on a relatively small budget for over a decade.
Your argument is that if they sack Wenger they'll have to invest heavily to avoid a similar situation to the one we endured post Fergie. That makes sense. Yet, why sack Wenger to spend when they could just as easily spend that same money with Wenger (this is the same board which has been responsible for the lack of spending and investment which fans bemoan).
It doesn't add up to me.
No, of course not.
Who said that he was failing? We might he think he is failing because he is not winning the title, but qualifying for the Champions league might be Arsenal's target every year. If that's the case, then he really is not failing.
Arsenal fans still in favour of keeping Wenger - if there's only one post you read in this thread, make it this one.
Absolutely damning breakdown of the past 10yrs or so.
You're being mugged off big-time, Gooners. Long may it continue!
Oh that, that adds up perfectly to me. I don't see any reason whatsoever why they would trust him with a bigger budget.
Firstly, he already spends more than people think. Go have a look at transfer league (the website) and see. They spent £80m net last summer. They have spent more in the last 5 years than Tottenham, Chelsea and Liverpool and they are currently behind all 3. The only club in the top 6 that they have spent less than and are above, is us. And we are in better form to them and catching up.
On top of this, it's become obvious to everyone that Wenger has lost whatever ability he had in instilling a winning mentality to his players. And that's the most damaging. He hasn't won anything of note in a decade. He failed to even reach the Quarter Finals of the Champions League in 8 years. But the cherry on the cake was when last year every major domestic rival was in complete disarray, yet he still managed to lose the title to Leicester without even mounting a challenge.
In the last 13 years, Wenger has been a "bare minimum' manager. He would get his players to achieve the bare minimum that is expected by the board. Never anything above that. If you ask my personal opinion, I believe he's already trusted with too much money.
I don't think it can be put down simply to money. Arsenal's total wages aren't that inferior to the big boys and they just spent £90m in the previous transfer window. They haven't lost any high profile players since RVP 3 seasons ago, and yet the team hasn't progressed the slightest bit. Liverpool have come closer to them to winning the title in the last decade despite a stricter wage structure. It's how the money in terms of wages and transfer fees is being distributed that's the problem, and I highly doubt Wenger doesn't have a big say in that given his status at the club.
You really believe that? Then you have nothing in common with Arsenal fans
I think that mentality took hold during the stadium move. They survived at a very high level when their purse strings were pulled so damn tight. The manager made regular profits in the transfer market.
They just operated in that dynamic for so long that a whole board got to see that financial success is not intrinsically tied to on field performance.
I'm not talking about the fans. The fans don't set targets, they just dream of winning everything. It's the board that decides the targets that they want to achieve. If Wenger has not been achieving his target set by the board, they would have got rid of him a long time ago.
The wage structure isn't the Board's its Wenger. Wenger believed in a socialist wage structure for a long time and helped install that at Arsenal before any of the current board. Especially with how detached the board is, the signs point to them just providing overall wage amounts and its up to Wenger to mostly decide how its distributed. A new manager could certainly have some influence on the wage structure and modernizing it quite a bit. Obviously not to the amounts of United or Real but much more than current.
Also right now Wenger is the final say on how much we offer in transfer fees. If Wenger had said 'offer Liverpool £45M for Suarez', Dick Law would have offered £45M for Suarez.
I'm not sure offering Sanchez a bumper deal is a break from the current wage structure that much, bare with me here.....Since Sanchez was bought and paid 140k a week PL money has gone up 40% and CL money has gone up significantly. That means 140k x1.4 = 196k in today's money. He likely wants more than that looking at other top players that he's on par with. Then you have to compare how many mediocre players Arsenal have near 100k a week. So Sanchez represents value at 250-300k a week in comparison.
The best deal for Arsenal maybe to keep him on 140k a week and let him go for free aged 29. That is likely a better deal than giving him 300k a week for 4 years when he will be past his prime for 2 of those years. The only downside is loss of a transfer fee buys a decent replacement then there's little point in selling. It'd take 50m-60m to get a decent replacement that won't be as good in this market.
Ozil though imo should be sold if a good offer comes in
though I agree with you that Arsenal lacked winners after the retirement of the old guards from George Graham's team and they just moved into the Emirates so they didn't have money to spend, now the finances have been stabilized and they have bought defenders who won big trophies before. He has the German defenders and Cech, who has won multiple trophies with Chelsea.
It takes a special something to win the world cup. No matter how some British here talk about how lion hearted Lampard and Gerrard were and how weak minded Ozil is, it is important to bear in mind that Ozil won the world cup and is still part of the most dominant national team in the world. Mertersacker was key in the world cup win as well. Everyone looks like a bunch of pub defenders while playing for Arsenal.
Can't tell what you're trying to say.
I think the overall point is Wenger inherited a great defence. he evolved that one player at a time for 6 years. Once that collection of 10 players left, he is yet to win anything. Never built a strong defensive 5 after 2004. That's 12 years ago.
I am sorry. Sometimes I type on my phone in the subway on the way to work that I lose track of what I am trying to say.
What I was trying to say is that after the finance stabilized, Arsenal did buy a few big name defenders (including the goalkeeper) who had won trophies. And guys like Mertesacker, Monreal and Kolscieny have been around for a few years already. Still, the defensive performances have looked like those of a pub team.
I am also adding on that I know some would argue that Mertesacker isn't playing and once Kolscieny was gone, the defense also went south. Phil Jones just returned to the playing squad, and Rojo is relatively new, and United defends better with these "newer" guys than playing the established Smalling.
A headline in a german paper today:
Bayern victim: What next for Wenger?
Bayern victim: What next for Wenger?
Wenger doesn't want to leave.
The board doesn't want him to go.
Those are the two most important entities within the club. No one really listens to the fans voice.
I think he has already been offered a new deal and probably already signed. Just needs an opportune time to announce it.
The board doesn't want him to go.
Those are the two most important entities within the club. No one really listens to the fans voice.
I think he has already been offered a new deal and probably already signed. Just needs an opportune time to announce it.
A mini documentary on the Wenger protests:
If 5-1 issue with the current side....(I don't have an isssue with them, I just wanted to use my brilliant, hilarious gag).
It'll blow up within the fan base if he stays, but I think you might be right.
I find it hard to believe that their owners would be happy to keep Wenger on if they don't finish in the top four though.
There has been murmuring among some fans for a long time re Wenger, but it really seems to have picked up the last couple of years though. IF he gets sacked though, i honestly have no idea how the club will handle it. Maybe some fresh ideas will bring instant success, but at the same time, hes been there so long and secured the stability of the club they might fall into a rut like we did post-Ferguson
o rly? What about the players? Sanchez is going and if you believe the media Ozil and Ox are disenfranchised and looking for a way out.
Not sure about Ozil but Ox and Sanchez are running down their contracts, forcing the club's hand to sell for below market value price, potentially to their rivals. The RVP case looks to become a normal situation now, rather than a rare scenario, with a calculated cost of multiple millions to the club. The board will take notice of that.
I think people forget that apart from the stadium and some other tangible assets, the biggest asset in terms of value in a football club is the players. The manager is a cost, not a asset. They can't sell the manager. There's a reason why people talk of "player power". Because with them being assets of such high value these days, they are undoubtedly way more important to shareholders than managers.
They'd listen to the fans if the fans boycotted games. Still not sure why this isn't a thing in England.
Because sadly if you boycott, there us some one else in line waiting to replace you.
That's why boycotts don't work and fans resort to drastic measures like planes.
I don't disagree with that.
But I meant in a decision makers point of view. Especially as Arsene is really more than just a manager at that club.
Please, please Arsene!
The board will notice but they are also confident of Wenger's ability. Sanchez goes and Wenger promotes Iwobi to a bigger first team role or buys someone not as famous but younger.
Then it will be another year of "let's develop and gel our young team" and then, another 4th place finish.
Despite everyone being so critical of Wenger, he does manage to reach the minimal target every year, unlike Ancelotti who fluctuates greatly.
It seems Arsenal fans are almost unanimously for greater fluctuation in their fortunes from year to year, if the chances of winning a major trophy go up. I find that interesting. There are no guarantees in football (we're the perfect example), so the question the board is asking is, is it worth sacrificing this steady income and spending more money all in the hopes of maybe obtaining silverware? Odious train of thought from a fan/supporter perspective, but we don't have a voice at the table (Troopz aside) so...
I know Geordie is a polarizing character, but I think he's 100% spot on in this.
Love the clock, Steve.He is staying. Christ!
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...enal-fans-protest-before-signing-new-contract
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...enal-fans-protest-before-signing-new-contract