Unfortunately out of the top 6 we're the worst of a bad bunch.
Top 4 race 2016/17
- Thread starter Yorkeontop
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well Liverpool, Arsenal and United all look like they're trying to gift top four to their competitors at varying times this year.
City have dropped points of late, but that's no a surprise given the last three sides they've played. I expect them to go on a run against the bottom sides. They usually are cannon-fodder for City.
We simply won't capitalise whenever we're presented a chance to move in to the top four which is infuriating. Too many home draws have cost us and too few goals. Best route is the Europa League.
Arsenal are capable of putting a run together but I still expect them to drop points and lose a few. Their crisis isn't over, but their level of opposition should garner a few wins for them at the very least and they're experts at the top four battle.
Liverpool will miss Mane and they do look like a completely different side without him. I think they will just get over the line though, but that's mostly to do with us and Arsenal being shite.
City have dropped points of late, but that's no a surprise given the last three sides they've played. I expect them to go on a run against the bottom sides. They usually are cannon-fodder for City.
We simply won't capitalise whenever we're presented a chance to move in to the top four which is infuriating. Too many home draws have cost us and too few goals. Best route is the Europa League.
Arsenal are capable of putting a run together but I still expect them to drop points and lose a few. Their crisis isn't over, but their level of opposition should garner a few wins for them at the very least and they're experts at the top four battle.
Liverpool will miss Mane and they do look like a completely different side without him. I think they will just get over the line though, but that's mostly to do with us and Arsenal being shite.
Left for work when they were still winning so didn't even know they'd slipped up. To not lose ground on them when they play Bournemouth and we play Everton isn't too bad. Could have done with gaining more ground on city but it's not been a disastrous mid week, arsenal winning aside
Why are we so shit, Chelsea and Spurs are the only top side and yet we wont make top 4, so frustrating.
While the optics of finishing in the top 4 are great, winning the EL would mean we'd skip the tedious qualifying rounds of the CL next year which means a more coherent pre-season. I know which one I'd prefer.
Both please.
We need to be back in the CL.
At least we'd show some ambition in trying to compete for it, unlike the making-up-the-numbers shit-show served up by Spurs this season, and Arsenal every year.
Reckon Chelsea will give it a decent shot next year. I'd say City would too, but we've got eyes on their top 4 spot.
I agree wholeheartedly. Despite all the doom and gloom being served up here after yesterday's result, we still have two very clear paths to qualification and while it could all blow up in our faces within the next couple of weeks, I still have full faith in our capacity to qualify.
Liverpool could really struggle from here on out, it could come down to if Arsenal can pick back up but judging by their body language after their goals today I think not.
Allardyce having a huge hand in ending Arsenal's top 4 hopes next Monday would be quite something.
Allardyce having a huge hand in ending Arsenal's top 4 hopes next Monday would be quite something.
I think top 4 is going to be pretty difficult. Our best (and riskiest) chance of reaching champions league football is Europa League. We seem to have reverted to being a cup team.
The reasons why I think a top 4 finish is unlikely is because of the following reasons.
1. We are just not playing well in the league. Historically, form teams at this stage of the season do best and we are woefully out of form for a number of reasons.
2. The team have stopped enjoying it. Over the last 2 matches at least, I couldn't really see joie de vivre in anyones performance. Multifactorial again.
3. Mourinho. His comments about specific players have been silly and egotistical. It is delusional to think that it is somehow motivational. Eg:- He could've just said 'Luke Shaw had a good game but I have told him that he needs to work harder to get a regular place in the team' Why destroy his confidence and embarrass him the way he did?
Constant changing of formation and team selection throughout the season has been questionable. He has not worked out his best team yet which has been detrimental to performances. Injuries and suspensions have note helped. Imo there has certainly been an under utilisation of the talent available to us over the course of the season. Many will disagree with me but I still feel that Bastian Schweinsteiger had much more to offer us this season if he had been used correctly. There are other examples.
I hope he figures it out. He will not and should not be sacked irrespective of what we achieve this season. He certainly has also done some very good things during his time here.
4. Lack of mental fortitude. We have been pretty poor against the Top 6 sides and failed to win very winnable games when it mattered. We have no excuses. There has been plenty of opportunities for us to have cemented our place in the Top 4 already despite our early season troubles.
We have quite a few seasons to go before we challenge for the title again I believe.
The reasons why I think a top 4 finish is unlikely is because of the following reasons.
1. We are just not playing well in the league. Historically, form teams at this stage of the season do best and we are woefully out of form for a number of reasons.
2. The team have stopped enjoying it. Over the last 2 matches at least, I couldn't really see joie de vivre in anyones performance. Multifactorial again.
3. Mourinho. His comments about specific players have been silly and egotistical. It is delusional to think that it is somehow motivational. Eg:- He could've just said 'Luke Shaw had a good game but I have told him that he needs to work harder to get a regular place in the team' Why destroy his confidence and embarrass him the way he did?
Constant changing of formation and team selection throughout the season has been questionable. He has not worked out his best team yet which has been detrimental to performances. Injuries and suspensions have note helped. Imo there has certainly been an under utilisation of the talent available to us over the course of the season. Many will disagree with me but I still feel that Bastian Schweinsteiger had much more to offer us this season if he had been used correctly. There are other examples.
I hope he figures it out. He will not and should not be sacked irrespective of what we achieve this season. He certainly has also done some very good things during his time here.
4. Lack of mental fortitude. We have been pretty poor against the Top 6 sides and failed to win very winnable games when it mattered. We have no excuses. There has been plenty of opportunities for us to have cemented our place in the Top 4 already despite our early season troubles.
We have quite a few seasons to go before we challenge for the title again I believe.
When we beat Spurs, we were three points behind them. Now we're 11 points behind.
Here are the results of every team since 11th December.
Spurs' record is amazing. Our record isn't that bad but the draws are frustrating.
8 goals conceded for us in 14 games is really impressive. Shame we cant convert any chances to score though
When we beat Spurs, we were three points behind them. Now we're 11 points behind.
Here are the results of every team since 11th December.
Spurs' record is amazing. Our record isn't that bad but the draws are frustrating.
What website do you use to compare games from certain dates?
Edit - Nevermind found it, Statto
Last edited:
Doesn't look good for us. Arsenal are always so good at beating the bottom half teams home and away. Its how they always get top 4. I think they might get it again this season
maybe arse players have been told Wenger is staying, hence playing for their careers and so inspiring an upturn?
This upturn to get top 4 always happens for them it seems. They must have big CL bonus in the contracts
Actually that looks better than i thought it would. Feels weird saying it, but luckily we only have 3 homegames left.
Doesn't look good for us. Arsenal are always so good at beating the bottom half teams home and away. Its how they always get top 4. I think they might get it again this season
A lot depends on wether we can start getting results against top 6 teams though, with away games left against City, Arsenal and Spurs. I'd be very happy with 5 points from those games, satisfied with 4. Think we'll beat Arsenal, and i'm quite optimistic against City (only won against 1 of top 9 at home so far
)As for the homegames against Swansea and CP, i think we profit from being at the business end of the season, and they might very well need more than 1 point when coming to OT, giving us more room to attack.
If we can win the rest(minus Chelsea), with 4 points in the mentioned games, we'll end up at 73 points , which should be enough for 4th i think. We'll find another couple of hurdles to trip on though...
That's a far better post Christmas record than I was expecting. Title winning form. Too many draws, though. I think it's clear that City is probably the team we have most chance to catch.
Wouldn't put it past Liverpool struggling too, losing Sane will be a huge loss for them. If we can start nicking a few wins and beat one or two of the top teams we are going to be coming up against, we will make top four.
Going to be difficult, but far from impossible imo, still wide open.
He plays for city, you must mean Kané
To be fair, our record overall since that low point of the season when we were in bad form is actually considerably decent. At one point we were on 21 points from 14 games though, which was fairly awful and meant that presuming the points barrier for a top four finish is around the two points per game mark, we were going to need to hit something resembling title winning form from that point till the end of the season.
Since then we've been maintaining form which would ideally have us in an around a CL spot (3rd in that table there) but because we're not quite hitting another gear we're still frustratingly lingering behind those teams just above us. People always look to the end of the season but sometimes a bad run earlier in the year can really hamper a side if they don't hit a freakishly good run.
Is that Harry Kane's slightly exotic brother?
City record at home is only little better than us. They're a mood team. They can blow everyone even the top teams away when they're on a good run, but would drop silly point even against cannon fodder teams when their form dips, just like us
Last edited:
Amazing how wide open the 3rd and 4th spots still are. 75 points seems to be the magic number.
I can't see us getting result against the top teams, and we are not doing enough to get past the bottom teams. EL seems doable but then again if we can't score goals, it doesn't matter what competition we are playing.
All I see is Arsenal are definitely making top 4 ahead of us. Probably us and Liverpool missing out.
Doesn't look good for us. Arsenal are always so good at beating the bottom half teams home and away. Its how they always get top 4. I think they might get it again this season
Also, the home draws look even worse than I thought. The worrying thing though is if we had scored one more and won all of those... we would still be second to Chelsea on GD. That's how out of/away from a title challenge we are.
If we had won certain matches, we'd be further ahead too. I think every team in the league has ifs. Means nothing if you don't translate it to reality.
Going to be a tough race for top 4. I still think Liverpool will get it, but performances like yesterday doesn't fill you with confidence on their behalf. If it wasn't for United's run in I would have backed them.
Dark horse may be Arsenal, I'm still half expecting them to finish above us even though it shouldn't be possible. If Wenger gets the squad to pull in the same direction they may surprise people though and get top 4.
Dark horse may be Arsenal, I'm still half expecting them to finish above us even though it shouldn't be possible. If Wenger gets the squad to pull in the same direction they may surprise people though and get top 4.
With it being so tight it's really hard not to look at the countless points we've needlessly thrown away. What's worse is the list seems to get longer every week. So frustrating.
I think at this moment, United should concede top 4 as unattainable, avoid the added pressure on players and just focus on giving a good account of themselves performance wise, especially in those 4 big games. We aren't good enough mentally or quality wise to cope with the strain of both Pl and EL, no point in pushing ourselves to the breaking point. Take the relaxed approach, play good positive entertaining football without too much worry about results.
United should concede top 4 as unattainable?
Sorry, but that is plainly laughable.
We are behind Arsenal on goal difference, and behind Liverpool by 6 points with 2 games in hand. That basically puts us neck and neck, we aren't even trying to close a substantial gap. Even City are at risk now. It will go down to the final day of the season, that's for sure. We should start thrashing teams to bolster our GD. It would be insane to give up at this point. We are still in with a chance of finishing 3rd. All positions from 3-6 are very, very close.
Laugh all you want then, mate.
This isn't Man United as you know them. How anyone can still say things like " We're Man Utd, we should expect more/we should aim better etc etc" after what we've witnessed this season, I can't imagine. Our players used to thrive under pressure, the current ones just wilt.You can cover you head in sand and talk about how mathematically it's still on. Cat's chance in hell, I tell you.
Just take the burden off them and play football without the expectation of a target. May be they'll surprise us.
Edit: That part about thrashing teams."
Last edited:
Last night's results help us out a bit, but I don't think we should take too much hope from them. I can't see how we're getting Top 4 with our fixtures.
I know all teams can look at results through the course of a season and wonder what if, but those draws really have killed us. If we had won just half of those drawn games and lost the other half we'd be 6 points better off right now.
I know all teams can look at results through the course of a season and wonder what if, but those draws really have killed us. If we had won just half of those drawn games and lost the other half we'd be 6 points better off right now.
Arsenal are there too yet , its not over until the end of the season. Liv City United and Arsenal will have a serious Dog Fight amongst themselves.
That fact that City ended up still inside the top 4, with a chance to go 3rd after playing Liverpool H, Arsenal A and Chelsea A makes me think we'll be reasonably ok from here. Though we'd be very lucky that teams around us are equally just not very good.
City Dropped 6 points from all those games, so they did nothing special, Its Us united and arsenal who could not win our own games against weaker sides which kept them in top 4.
Even city struggle against bus parking teams so there is always a possibility of a draw and united have to cash on, while we still have got a derby to play
The only teams that fully deserve top 4 are Chelsea and spurs. The rest of us have been absolutely dreadful at various points this season. Hopefully we will nick a space though as psychologically it would be a huge boost even though realistically there's nothing between us all.
Doesn't look good for us. Arsenal are always so good at beating the bottom half teams home and away. Its how they always get top 4. I think they might get it again this season
I got laughed at on here at the beginning of the season when I said Tottenham would easily get into the top 4. And again around Christmas when I suggested they'd get stronger in the second half of the season.
People need to start treating them as a serious threat all the time Poch is there.
I really really wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I'm sick to death of putting faith into these players. They are bigger bottlers than Arsenal have ever been, and that's saying something. At least Arsenal had the mentality to at least finish in the top four. We're probably finishing 6th.
It's still capable there's no doubt about that. Apart from Chelsea and Spurs, the rest challenging drop points on a weekly basis, it just needs someone to string a few wins together and they'd start to pull away. Arsenal for example until last night hadn't won in what 6? Suddenly they are talking about the possibility of finishing top four again. Liverpool showed last night how inconsistent they are when playing teams they should win and City are prone to slip up as well. Sadly for us, we just can't convert draws in to wins, especially at Old Trafford. I also think what with the possibility of getting champions league football via the europa league, it could well be a psychological think like " if this way fails, we have this as a backup option".
Whilst I'm utterly fed up putting faith in this batch of players, I still find it hard to say we won't make champions league football next season. I do though think it'll be through the europa league rather than the top four though.
Whilst I'm utterly fed up putting faith in this batch of players, I still find it hard to say we won't make champions league football next season. I do though think it'll be through the europa league rather than the top four though.
I think it's funny reading about how every team fighting for the 4th spot is "terrible", "throwing it away", "doesn't want it", "trash", "painfully average" etc. In fact, it's very likely that the team in 5th will have the highest point total ever to miss out on the Champions League (the record is 72 shared by Everton in 2014 and Spurs in 2013). Teams 3-6 are abnormally good for the Premier League. 70 points is normally a lock for the Top 4, that's might not even get you top 6 this season.
The only difference is the names of the clubs - Manchester United and Liverpool instead of Spurs, Everton, Southampton, etc. The reality is that this is what teams fighting for 4th look like - they throw away points at home seemingly at random, they can't get on long winning streaks or keep momentum and the like. If they could do those things, they'd contend for titles, not for 4 place.
I've lived this song and dance for going on 10 years now. Pretty glad the last few seasons have seen Spurs finally step up one more level and stay slightly above the frustrating mess that is the fight for that last CL spot.
The only difference is the names of the clubs - Manchester United and Liverpool instead of Spurs, Everton, Southampton, etc. The reality is that this is what teams fighting for 4th look like - they throw away points at home seemingly at random, they can't get on long winning streaks or keep momentum and the like. If they could do those things, they'd contend for titles, not for 4 place.
I've lived this song and dance for going on 10 years now. Pretty glad the last few seasons have seen Spurs finally step up one more level and stay slightly above the frustrating mess that is the fight for that last CL spot.