General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Classical Mechanic]

I think you strongly overestimate the impact of a rise in corporation tax or an improvement in employee rights... or have you seen a big slow down in France or Germany's economy because of their higher rates? Our rates were significantly higher 20 years ago. Our rates at the moment are pretty low in comparison.

I see what you are saying that with a Brexit imposed economic slow down... we should protect our export markets such as Saudi Arabia. I just think maybe we should care a hundred times more about protecting our European export market which is significantly larger and more important.

In the case of France their labour laws absolutely cost the economy. They make it so costly to invest in people that businesses have rather invested in automation, whilst this has caused an increase in their productivity but has also caused a chronic unemployment problem for decades. Macron aims to significantly decrease their corporation tax levels too and deconstruct other labour laws to finally modernise their economy.

We are leaving the EU either on reduced trade terms or significantly reduced trade terms. Walking away from one of our largest export markets, at this time, is stupid frankly.

 

[rcoobc]

We are leaving the EU either on reduced trade terms or significantly reduced trade terms. Walking away from one of our largest export markets, at this time, is stupid frankly.

Are you talking about Saudi Arabia? How can anyone say this with a straight face

They aren't significantly higher than South Korea, Japan or India.

The represent 1.3% of the export market. We absolutely should walk away from a country that has human rights abuses, even if it indivudally made us all 1% poorer (which of course it wouldn't).

The EU has to be first, second and third priority

 

[ZupZup]

We are leaving the EU either on reduced trade terms or significantly reduced trade terms. Walking away from one of our largest export markets, at this time, is stupid frankly.

Ok... so how much do you think the lives of innocent Yemeni civilians should be worth? At what point does the cost to our economy become not worth it?

 

[rcoobc]

Ok... so how much do you think the lives of innocent Yemeni civilians should be worth? At what point does the cost to our economy become not worth it?

Must be 0.2%. If we get any poorer than 0.2% then we must forget human rights completely.

Anyway human rights aren't a thing anymore as we are leaving the EU so it doesn't matter

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Interesting little story in the same week as the police announced no charges will be brought for the 2015 GE:

Greens were offered £250,000 not to stand in Richmond Park byelection

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0000-not-to-stand-in-richmond-park-byelection

Asked on BBC2’s Daily Politics about reports the Greens were offered £250,000 by a mystery donor to not stand in December’s byelection, Lucas said people in the party knew who had made the offer but she had forgotten the name.

It must really suck when you suffer from politically focused amnesia. Given its prevalence, we should probably get some docs from St Thomas' to check the Palace of Westminster.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Are you talking about Saudi Arabia? How can anyone say this with a straight face



They aren't significantly higher than South Korea, Japan or India.

The represent 1.3% of the export market. We absolutely should walk away from a country that has human rights abuses, even if it indivudally made us all 1% poorer (which of course it wouldn't).

The EU has to be first, second and third priority

Outside of EU nations I meant. The EU is first, second and third priority but we are not staying in the single market if Labour get in from the noises they are making.

Ok... so how much do you think the lives of innocent Yemeni civilians should be worth? At what point does the cost to our economy become not worth it?

And you really think that the UK walking away from trade with SA is going to save Yemeni lives?

At least through strong trade links you have greater diplomatic influence.

 

[ZupZup]

And you really think that the UK walking away from trade with SA is going to save Yemeni lives?

Does that make it morally ok? Would you sell a gun to someone if you knew they would use it to kill an innocent person? I don't know about you... but my conscience wouldn't allow it.

You'd think it's ok though because you made a few quid and if you didn't sell it them... they'd just get one from someone else! Don't think I'd be able to sleep at night personally.

 

[rcoobc]

Interesting little story in the same week as the police announced no charges will be brought for the 2015 GE:

Greens were offered £250,000 not to stand in Richmond Park byelection

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...0000-not-to-stand-in-richmond-park-byelection



It must really suck when you suffer from politically focused amnesia. Given its prevalence, we should probably get some docs from St Thomas' to check the Palace of Westminster.

What a crazy story. I'd have had a hard time turning down £250k for something they were doing anyway...

 

[rcoobc]

Does that make it morally ok? Would you sell a gun to someone if you knew they would use it to kill an innocent person? I don't know about you... but my conscience wouldn't allow it.

You'd think it's ok though because you made a few quid and if you didn't sell it them... they'd just get one from someone else! Don't think I'd be able to sleep at night personally.

The real reason we export to Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with money funnily. They are one of our key allies in the region.





(I know this is the USA, but it still applies).

The better question is, should we humiliate one of our key allies in an already treacherous region? Will that achieve anything of value whatsoever?

 

[Unmutual]

123456

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Does that make it morally ok? Would you sell a gun to someone if you knew they would use it to kill an innocent person? I don't know about you... but my conscience wouldn't allow it.

You'd think it's ok though because you made a few quid and if you didn't sell it them... they'd just get one from someone else! Don't think I'd be able to sleep at night personally.

Is diplomatic pressure not a more effective way of changing the course of foreign politics? What happens if the West walk away from dealings with Saudi Arabia and impose sanctions? Do innocent people stop dying and everything becomes perfect or do you see continued suffering and more instability like in North Korea?

Moral positions in global geopolitics are simple answers to hugely complex questions. Granted that the UK's current position is entirely self serving but that doesn't mean that walking away is the best thing to do.

 

[Ubik]

It's a tax and spend manifesto, one I reckon probably wins them the leadership again after the election. Arguing for valence issues against it will be pretty tough in the face of the party members.

 

[Unmutual]

It's a tax and spend manifesto, one I reckon probably wins them the leadership again after the election. Arguing for valence issues against it will be pretty tough in the face of the party members.

With Labour close to their 2015 result according to current polls & a feel good (for lefties) manifesto, I'd say there's a decent chance Labour members will be prepared to give him another go.

 

[ThierryHenry]

The unfairness of things seriously, seriously depresses me. I NEED the joy I get at work - and the sertraline. Was close to clocking off for good at times when I was street homeless and realised I couldn't get my possessions back from my landlord after he illegally evicted me and took all my stuff, leaving me with the clothes I arrived home from work, with the main police station being closed due to underfunding and the fact that it was considered a civil matter and that legal aid had been removed. I had some quality stuff by the way, along with a lot of sentimentally valuable things from both deceased parents and from my kids when they were little. I struggle to type now, tbh, when I think about it. Yeah... today was good. *sips his stella in the beer garden*

Sorry you've been through all that mate. You sound like a good bloke and I admire your optimism. Hope things continue getting better.

 

[ZupZup]

Is diplomatic pressure not a more effective way of changing the course of foreign politics? What happens if the West walk away from dealings with Saudi Arabia and impose sanctions? Do innocent people stop dying and everything becomes perfect or do you see continued suffering and more instability like in North Korea?

Moral positions in global geopolitics are simple answers to hugely complex questions. Granted that the UK's current position is entirely self serving but that doesn't mean that walking away is the best thing to do.

I don't think a political sanction like refusing to sell them arms is undeserved under the circumstances. If not this, when are political sanctions fair or warranted?

I just find it odd when there are many holes you may want to pick in the manifesto... that one of your main concerns is that we must continue selling arms to an oppressive regime that kills innocent people.

This isn't the only increased worker cost, there's also the 4 bank holidays, end of zero hours contracts, doubled paternity pay etc, which all add to the cost of employment & reduce profits. The effect would be compounded in this case because Labour are proposing to take more of those profits via corporation tax too. I suspect the twin pressures on profits of increased cost of doing businesses and increased corporation tax would result in businesses reducing staffing levels (and investment) to sustain their profits, which increases unemployment and increases benefits costs.

Who knows, it could be that the whole lot evens out in the end, or even ends up with a net gain for the Government, its the kind of thing you can model. I just get the sense Labour aren't modelling this stuff though, they're just assuming.

According to the Bank of England... public holidays are roughly economically neutral as the cost of lower productivity is offset by increased spending on those days. As I've said before... employment costs will go up but spending will too. Austerity and stagnating wages have hardly helped the economic recovery in this country as you will have noticed. Maybe it is time to try something different and I don't think the proposals should be dismissed as having a negative economic impact when it's not a zero sum game. Corporation tax was significantly higher 20 years ago and yet growth in GDP was good.

 

[Ubik]

I note that they've found a nicer sounding version of "controls on immigration"

Labour believes in fair rules and reasonable management of migration.

 

[Snowjoe]

corbyns car ran over a bbc cameramans foot

i know it's not his fault but it's just what he needs

 

[Unmutual]

I
According to the Bank of England... public holidays are roughly economically neutral as the cost of lower productivity is offset by increased spending on those days. As I've said before... employment costs will go up but spending will too. Austerity and stagnating wages have hardly helped the economic recovery in this country as you will have noticed. Maybe it is time to try something different and I don't think the proposals should be dismissed as having a negative economic impact when it's not a zero sum game. Corporation tax was significantly higher 20 years ago and yet growth in GDP was good.

If you've seen that report Id love to have sight of it, Ive looked around and couldn't find it, or even reference to it. I found a DCMS report calculating the cost of one additional bank holiday as having a net impact of a £1.2bn loss, all things considered. Other reports Ive seen put it at £2.3bn loss, but Ive seen none that make a net profit (this includes extra shopping and the like btw).

More generally, sure, what the Tories have been doing hasn't worked very well (though we shouldn't ignore the number of jobs created, even if they are too often low paid and insecure[edited]). However that doesn't meant that any old thing is better. As I say, if Labour have done their sums it should be demonstrable that their plan will stack up. McDonnell made the point today that the costings aren't included in the leaked draft & won't be available til the final version, so we should know more next week.

 

[Mozza]

In the case of France their labour laws absolutely cost the economy. They make it so costly to invest in people that businesses have rather invested in automation, whilst this has caused an increase in their productivity but has also caused a chronic unemployment problem for decades. Macron aims to significantly decrease their corporation tax levels too and deconstruct other labour laws to finally modernise their economy.

We are leaving the EU either on reduced trade terms or significantly reduced trade terms. Walking away from one of our largest export markets, at this time, is stupid frankly.

Have some morals, let's not help them kill people for money

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Have some morals, let's not help them kill people for money

I have already been through this with zupzup.

Corbyn's position would be meaningless in real terms to the people of Yemen. Moral positions are simplistic against complex geopolitical situations.

Should Corbyn not use the diplomatic leverage that the UK has through trade relations to try to influence SA into being better global citizens, or at least try as a first measure?

Sounds like he and his followers are primarily concerned with maintaining their own perceived sense of moral purity. See his vote on the 1999 military intervention in Kosovo for an example.

 

[Ubik]

 

[PedroMendez]

Whats the point in re-nationalising the royal mail?

 

[Smores]

I have already been through this with zupzup.

Corbyn's position would be meaningless in real terms to the people of Yemen. Moral positions are simplistic against complex geopolitical situations.

Should Corbyn not use the diplomatic leverage that the UK has through trade relations to try to influence SA into being better global citizens, or at least try as a first measure?

Sounds like he and his followers are primarily concerned with maintaining their own perceived sense of moral purity. See his vote on the 1999 military intervention in Kosovo for an example.

Well when you put it like that perhaps we should lift all other sanctions? Tough times ahead why not sell to more regimes.

As for the corp tax point, to what level do you think we ahould lower it to for competitive advantage? What is the maximum you think we can tolerate without significant impact?

 

[Ubik]

Whats the point in re-nationalising the royal mail?

Because we can!

The passage in the manifesto is here anyway (this is the only mention I can find):

The Conservative government's privatisation of Royal Mail was a historic mistake, selling off another national asset on the cheap. Labour will reverse this privatisation at the earliest opportunity, because it is a profitable company that should still be giving a return to the many not the few, and because key national infrastructure like a postal system is best delivered in public ownership.

 

[Smores]

Whats the point in re-nationalising the royal mail?

The same reason we have any public services i imagine, ensure decent services in this case to the country folm. Its not an issue i particularly care about compared to rail and energy tbh.

The sale was a huge mistake particularly around the pensions but i don't think that means it should be reversed.

 

[DenisIrwin]

 

[Ibi Dreams]

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9206

The raise on corporation tax in Labour's manifesto doesn't seem that bad when looking at this graph. We'd still have lower corporation tax than all of the G7 countries and a number of other EU countries.

 

[PedroMendez]

Because we can!

The passage in the manifesto is here anyway (this is the only mention I can find):

I kind of expected something like that. Stuff like rail and electricity are very difficult topics. Both sides have good arguments and it is not entire clear which model is the best. Yet the privatisation of mail services was unambiguously successful in other countries. The majority of concerns, that support public ownership, simply don’t apply.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well when you put it like that perhaps we should lift all other sanctions? Tough times ahead why not sell to more regimes.

As for the corp tax point, to what level do you think we ahould lower it to for competitive advantage? What is the maximum you think we can tolerate without significant impact?

Do we impose any unilateral sanctions on any other country?

Corporation tax increase is just part of a broader range of measures that will make the UK unattractive to investors in the light of Brexit. @Unmutual listed a more detailed explanation.

@Denis Irwin

Your graphs also show that we would be uncompetitive against several EU member states, the states that will be trying to entice companies away from the UK after Brexit.

 

[Smores]

The Guardian have changed tune, they like the manifesto it seems. Be good if the rest of the campaign focused on policy

 

[Smores]

Do we impose any unilateral sanctions on any other country?

Corporation tax increase is just part of a broader range of measures that will make the UK unattractive to investors in the light of Brexit. @Unmutual listed a more detailed explanation.

North Korea? Iran i think was lifted but im sure there must be others, African countries perhaps. Point still stands though you fine with us flogging more or is it just the status quo you like?

I don't think people should be making claims about the effects of raising as negative and lowering positive unless they hold a position on the rates. Unless the current rates just so happens to fit in with your ideal? Otherwise you're just saying "i dont know the what best rate is but it definetely shouldn't change".

Do you think we should lower it further?

 

[Ubik]

I kind of expected something like that. Stuff like rail and electricity are very difficult topics. Both sides have good arguments and it is not entire clear which model is the best. Yet the privatisation of mail services was unambiguously successful in other countries. The majority of concerns, that support public ownership, simply don’t apply.

It's one of those things that poll well but no-one actually cares about. But it'll be ideological for Corbyn and McDonnell.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

North Korea? Iran i think was lifted but im sure there must be others, African countries perhaps. Point still stands though you fine with us flogging more or is it just the status quo you like?

I don't think people should be making claims about the effects of raising as negative and lowering positive unless they hold a position on the rates. Unless the current rates just so happens to fit in with your ideal? Otherwise you're just saying "i dont know the what best rate is but it definetely shouldn't change".

Do you think we should lower it further?

Our sanctions against North Korea are not unilateral are they? Sanctions are usually taken by a bloc of countries so they actually have some impact as opposed to moral posturing that makes no difference.

Labour want to increase the corporation tax rate above several EU countries, these countries will be looking to entice business away from the UK after Brexit so yes we might have to lower it further than it is currently.

 

[Sassy Colin]

The same reason we have any public services i imagine, ensure decent services in this case to the country folm. Its not an issue i particularly care about compared to rail and energy tbh.

The sale was a huge mistake particularly around the pensions but i don't think that means it should be reversed.

I don't see the point on wasting money on bringing them back into public ownership. They claim they were sold on the cheap and they would have to buy them back at market rate, which is expensive. Unless they make up some law that allows them to steal the stock back on the cheap.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Do we impose any unilateral sanctions on any other country?

Corporation tax increase is just part of a broader range of measures that will make the UK unattractive to investors in the light of Brexit. @Unmutual listed a more detailed explanation.

@Denis Irwin

Your graphs also show that we would be uncompetitive against several EU member states, the states that will be trying to entice companies away from the UK after Brexit.

I don't know how it could be implemented, but I feel it would be only fair for all companies and corporations that operate in the UK to actually pay the same taxes on profits made in the UK - regardless of onshore/offshore status. Big business currently has a massive and unfair competitive edge over UK based SMEs.

 

[ZupZup]

Labour want to increase the corporation tax rate above several EU countries, these countries will be looking to entice business away from the UK after Brexit so yes we might have to lower it further than it is currently.

Ok, so we lower corporate tax even further... after all, Ireland is only 12.5% and have the benefit of the single market. We want to be competitive, no?! Do you think there will be no recriminations from getting into a battle with our European neighbours over corporate tax rates? Suddenly we'll soon find the EU, in retaliation for us lowering the corporate tax rates decide to increase tariffs on UK goods and services to entice investment away. Do we then lower our rates even further to remain competitive? There will be no winners in this.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Ok, so we lower corporate tax even further... after all, Ireland is only 12.5% and have the benefit of the single market. We want to be competitive, no?! Do you think there will be no recriminations from getting into a battle with our European neighbours over corporate tax rates? Suddenly we'll soon find the EU, in retaliation for us lowering the corporate tax rates decide to increase tariffs on UK goods and services to entice investment away. Do we then lower our rates even further to remain competitive? There will be no winners in this.

In the event of a hard Brexit the WTO would set the tariffs.

All this debate is frivilous though, the manifesto, to me, is clearly designed to retain control of the Labour party and not to win this election.

 

[altodevil]

In the event of a hard Brexit the WTO would set the tariffs.

All this debate is frivilous though, the manifesto, to me, is clearly designed to retain control of the Labour party and not to win this election.

What would an election-winning manifesto look like to you?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What would an election-winning manifesto look like to you?

One that had policies that were realistic in the face of Brexit. Brexit being an unprecedented economic upheaval which makes Corbyn's proposed levels of public spending seem fantastical.

One that doesn't look like it is trying to tickle the balls of every liberal pressure group and demographic in the UK.

 

[berbatrick]

What would an election-winning manifesto look like to you?

Nuclear bomb R&D as a Saudi client. After all the odds of them using it are minuscule, so no one gets hurt, Britain will get lots of money, and diplomatic ties with a valuable ally will be strengthened. Use that to pay for a corp tax reduction.