https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ur-shortage-as-migrant-workers-shun-racist-uk
Another article on the same issue. The trend of those who voted in highest numbers for Brexit getting hit the hardest continues.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Another article on the same issue. The trend of those who voted in highest numbers for Brexit getting hit the hardest continues.
And more proof if it was ever needed that it's the racism that won it
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...firms-migration-controls-as-key-aim-of-brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...firms-migration-controls-as-key-aim-of-brexit
Would hope the world doesn't judge us on people who read and comment on the daily mail! We arn't all like that!
I for one am overjoyed for the thousands of unemployed British fruit pickers..
I live in a area that was dependant on immigrant fruit pickers. Thing is they got paid less than minimum wage. Normally about 50% less.
Certainly I have been in this country to know this is not as common as that might suggest but it also points to a huge portion who hide (or not) their distaste for foreigners. I am happy to hold my own but at some point you just think - is it worth having to go against the current and prove I deserve or have earned my place here time and again?
Yeah, that's illegal. I just wonder how in these cases how come you know but the authorities and the government are not acting on it? And can those picking businesses (were their workers British and they got at least the minimum wage) survive with increased costs or would they just go out of business with cheap imports.
These questions are not easy to answer and will be even more difficult with labour automation and incoming cull of driving jobs.
They probably feel as welcome as anyone who dared to vote the leave the EU and who has since been condemned indiscriminately as a racist, uneducated simpleton.
You can be educated and intelligent yet utterly idiotic on one or more subjects. The few of my friends who voted to leave aren't racists in the sense of planting burning crosses on lawns or even disliking people of colour etc. It is often far more subtle and they may not even be aware of their bias. It often is expressed in the land of hope and glory mindset that thinks a monarchy is a good idea and even something to be proud of, that we are still a world power and being part of the EU somehow devalues our victory in WW2 and a general mistrust of foreigners having any role connected to the UK. Basically a very Daily Mail mindset.
Despite our politicians proving time and time again they can be incredibly incompetent, corrupt and downright immoral.
Despite our politicians proving time and time again they can be incredibly incompetent, corrupt and downright immoral.
It's interesting how acutely sensitive to their bias you are. I agree about our politicians, they generally are incompetent and immoral, I guess that's why so many would prefer to be governed by their EU counterparts (those elected or not) as they have proven how decent, honest and altruistic they are. And if that ever changed we could always vote them..erm
I'm sensitive to all biases.
And the whole "ruled by unelected Europeans" is simply a straw man argument. We have civil servants in the UK as well.
And the whole "ruled by unelected Europeans" is simply a straw man argument. We have civil servants in the UK as well.
The bottom line is we need EU migrants, latest figures show the post Brexit 100k target is half what we need and the cost is negligible in the scheme of things. So what is left is zenophobia, mild or otherwise as you have to be seriously deluded if you think Brexit could be an economic plus.
We do indeed, although I would suggest there's a difference between the two groups.
Regardless, my intent was never to continue the debate on the value of membership to the EU or the debate surrounding the EU itself and how it functions.
I was compelled to post to address the treatment handed out to "leavers" since the vote.
For months a significant percent of those who are pro EU have been happy to arrogantly dehumanize the many millions who voted to leave by making blanket assumptions of them all and by treating them and their opinions and both their right and ability to form them with no respect or empathy.
I must admit I rather latched onto your comment to vent this point, for which I appologize.
The bottom line is we need EU migrants, latest figures show the post Brexit 100k target is half what we need and the cost is negligible in the scheme of things. So what is left is zenophobia, mild or otherwise as you have to be seriously deluded if you think Brexit could be an economic plus.
Could it be that for some Brexit wasn't entirely about money?
No need to apologise.
Money was a major argument. EU migration that it turns out is both profitable and needed was another. Being ruled by faceless EU bureaucrats was another that is a total straw man. There isn't much left after that.
The leave faction did take advantage of the less educated and lower socioeconomic groups by appealing to their quite justified dissatisfaction with how they are treated by politicians of all sides. Although like Trump and the Tories getting in it is part of the greatest con job ever pulled - getting the people with the most to lose t vote against their own interests.
Add on the Daily Mail demographic and there is a great deal of the 52%.
And as I said you don't need to be an uneducated idiot bigot to make wrong choices.
Few things:
The effect of migration extends beyond the issue of profit/business etc. The areas of the country that have the higher rates of migration tend to have the more negative view of it. Why do you think that is? Who are you to ignore those who say it has negatively effected their towns? Or those who want to have the power to elect people who ultimately are in a position to make a decision on it on their behalf? I'm certainly not against immigration but to simply state it's "needed" and thus opposition to it equals bigotry is absurd.
Our system is less democratic living within the EU than outside of it. You can quibble over the extent to which that is true and you can correctly point out that our own system is imperfect in that respect too but the bottom line is that this is true. Democracy used to matter to people, I remember being taught about it at a school where it was spoken of as this monumental achievement. Now? Dosn't seem to be the case.
As for the ever present accusations of "con job" and "lies", you realise both "sides" lied right? Are people equally angry about talk of triggering a nuclear war by leaving as they are about promises for the NHS? Because had I been undecided on the issue, my PM comming out with that warning could have been fairly persuasive.
Regarding "taking advantage of less educated and lower socioeconomic groups", could it be that such individuals simply had more to gain by leaving and less second homes in France to loose? Regardless (and this I feel this is important) don't kid yourself, neither "side" were remotely "informed" or "educated" on any of the issues at play.
By design our education system seems a little...light on issues of local, national or continental politics. Likewise I don't recall the monetary system or economy being required reading either. And how many people even knew we were in the EU prior to the referendum? Because it wasn't spoken of to me in school. Not once.
It's important to remember news coverage can be selective. I would have loved for all the interviews with people actually protesting the decision to leave who couldn't answer simple questions about it's leader or our our role within it to have been repeated ad nauseam in the same way they role out interviews with...a certain type of leaver. Maybe then it would be clearer just how many people also voted to stay without knowing an awful lot about it.
Lastly, the vote (at least for me) was a vote for the long term, not 12 months or even 12 years. Any judgement on how it has effected us should remember this.
I didn't actually say it was bigoted. Even though it probably is albeit usually indirectly. The places that tend to have the highest migration are those it is cheapest to settle in and/or most affected adversely by economic change so it is easy to point at the increase in brown/foreign people as the cause rather than merely a correlation. The Heil and the redtops shouting such opinions from the treetops reinforces such views. As do the Tories. When you feel left behind and ignored it is very easy to fall for the "I know your life isn't perfect and I can show you who is to blame" trick the right often pull.
We are just as democratic as we used to be. We have elected EU MPs and both EU and UK systems have bureaucrats to get the work done. In the end the EU only has the power our democracy decided was appropriate. So zero loss of democracy. And it isn't like the UK has that great democracy anyway. An unelected upper house, a monarchy at the peak of everything, first the post voting with no proportional representation or even transferable preference voting or compulsory voting.
Comparing the leave and stay campaign is like comparing Trump and Clinton. In both cases one side lies almost every single time they opened their mouths.
No. The remain campaign was rubbish but the leave voters were far better informed as almost every aspect of the leave campaign was utter bullshit. Huge sections of the leave vote will be those who lose out the most and soonest. Many of the areas that were the most fervent leave voters will be up to a thousand quid a year worse off per person per year in EU grant money alone, even if there aren't other economic knock on effects, which there will be - almost must be.
Lose religion and replace it with civics is a great idea. I'm not sure that anyone was actually unaware that we were in the EU. I remember us voting to go in so I sure was. That said I think you have a very valid point since people in general seemed very uninformed about how everything worked and interacted and this may well be why so many fell for the lies.
I can't answer that for sure but I do know that of my extended group those who want to remain are very well informed and would have no problem answering such questions. But that could be a correlation as the few I know who voted leave have a much lower educational level than those who voted to remain. Smallish sample size of course. And it also correlated with those who vote Tory. So obviously not a cut and dried issue.
I agree. Which is why it seems odd that there s so much crowing by leavers that the economy has only suffered a bit to date. It is going to get far far worse.
For the vast majority of that group, the answer is a resounding no. What more did they have to gain? Beyond feeling like they had their voice heard, which in theory is a very powerful benefit but in reality is an unmistakably transient perception, the list of tangible benefits is extremely small and cost-benefit analysis paints a pretty clear picture.
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I must say I have enjoyed the opportunity to discuss this, the willingness to listen to others and treat them with civility is not entirely lost it seems, which is refreshing to see.
Having said that I feel we have reached something of an impasse. It seems Wibble you have a fundamental bias against those who wish to leave as you constantly revert to assumptions that ignorance, bigotry and deception caused the result. I disagree. After exchanging arguments we remain divided on this issue, so we must agree to disagree.
You also continue to maintain the EU doesn't effect our democracy, that it has "only the power we agreed to give them". Again I disagree. Democratically the country voted to join a trade alliance. Over the years as the EU expanded beyond this (generally without any transparency that this was happening) at no point did the country vote on remaining in what it had become. Until now. It's also worth noting that during the original referendum to join the EU trading block, the EU "influenced the election" by striking deals with the British press to push propaganda for us joining. This is what democracy means to the EU. Now each country is able to vote on policies allowed by those above them. This is against politicians outside of the control of British people. It does not compare.
Also consider this comment:
Having said that I feel we have reached something of an impasse. It seems Wibble you have a fundamental bias against those who wish to leave as you constantly revert to assumptions that ignorance, bigotry and deception caused the result. I disagree. After exchanging arguments we remain divided on this issue, so we must agree to disagree.
You also continue to maintain the EU doesn't effect our democracy, that it has "only the power we agreed to give them". Again I disagree. Democratically the country voted to join a trade alliance. Over the years as the EU expanded beyond this (generally without any transparency that this was happening) at no point did the country vote on remaining in what it had become. Until now. It's also worth noting that during the original referendum to join the EU trading block, the EU "influenced the election" by striking deals with the British press to push propaganda for us joining. This is what democracy means to the EU. Now each country is able to vote on policies allowed by those above them. This is against politicians outside of the control of British people. It does not compare.
Also consider this comment:
THIS is how they view democracy, as a threat. But like I said, I agree we have our own problems and should we ever have the chance to vote to stop the house of lords or monarchy for example, I will be there to do so.
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Didn't the larger towns and cities, where highest concentration of immigrants are centred vote significantly to remain, whereas in country areas, where there are few or even no immigrants, voted to leave, the complete opposite of what you have described
Yep, see above.
Apart from Slough, Barking and Dagenham, Luton and Hillingdon the trend is that areas with the least immigration were more likely to vote leave. Looking at the data spread I don't think the correlation is particularly strong (compared to say education or age) but it is there.
Who is "they"?
that's fair enough. What's fascinated is the Brexiters obsession of sealing a deal with such undemocratic region, especially after all the insults they threw at the EU. Surely a global and fair country will limit its business with the EU while giving facilitating the access for immigrants fleeing from this horrible institution
Well that's hardly clear cut for a start:
Interesting I would love to see one of these based on income.
Ask and you shall receive.
If anyone could get the raw data that's gone into this I'd whip up some graphs with trend lines.
The EU seems to be all over the place at the moment. Theresa May's offer to EU citizens is good and fair, but hasn't gone down so well with the EU.
Junker and Tusk wanted the EU citizens rights to be protected by the ECJ, which was obviously going to be difficult to agree to if we are leaving the ECJ. We cannot have different laws for EU citizens and British citizens.
However, although Merkel and Macron seem OK about the assurances given EU citizens currently in the UK, they seem to have only just realised that the UK will be taking back control of borders, which is regarded as a serious compromise of the four freedoms. They have said that they now have to go away and discuss how this affects our future relationship. Theresa May was very clear in her speech in January what our Brexit intentions are.
It looks like this will now be a regular pattern in the negotiations. Everyone in the EU will react differently to how they interpret offers put on the table, with Merkel and Macron probably having the biggest say, when they've figured out what's going on.
Junker and Tusk wanted the EU citizens rights to be protected by the ECJ, which was obviously going to be difficult to agree to if we are leaving the ECJ. We cannot have different laws for EU citizens and British citizens.
However, although Merkel and Macron seem OK about the assurances given EU citizens currently in the UK, they seem to have only just realised that the UK will be taking back control of borders, which is regarded as a serious compromise of the four freedoms. They have said that they now have to go away and discuss how this affects our future relationship. Theresa May was very clear in her speech in January what our Brexit intentions are.
It looks like this will now be a regular pattern in the negotiations. Everyone in the EU will react differently to how they interpret offers put on the table, with Merkel and Macron probably having the biggest say, when they've figured out what's going on.
Over one year since the referendum and still no Brexiter has come up with a coherent reason that benefits them by voting leave nor an EU law that damages their life so much.
You can't make this up, been reading the Mail again
What May has offered is not fair or serious - a joke
I think this graph shows it better
What is the proportion of non-UK born citizens, in those highly populated non-UK born residents areas? Or is the distinction implied?
You mean the control that they never lost and for example partially exercise on french soil?
It's always nice to hear the little updates from the alternative universe vidic blood & sand lives in.
Try me, there must be one someone can think of, a real one that is, not one they have completely misunderstood
Explain why, from your perspective.
Well, don't you think it's intriguing that two major EU officials do not like May's offer, but Merkel thinks it's a promising start?
And yet, the penny finally drops with Merkel and Macron that we are intending to end free movement of EU nationals?
There's certainly confusion within the EU, whereas we've known since January what our intentions are.
The only confusion is in your head. EU officials are negotiating, their goal is to have as much as they can. As for Macron and Merkel nothing is dropping, the goal is to decide how the thing ends.
The one I agree with and personally find most persuasive of all the anti EU arguments is the effect of EU policy in regards to concentrating wealth power and opportunity.
If you think that is what is happening and it is hard to argue against it if you look at the numbers.
If you don't think it is acceptable for this to continue and if you can't see a way changing it then voting leave makes sense.
It is a fair reason and a logical line of argument.
Why do you think the EU is all over the place, May is presenting the UK as far from strong and stable, the EU have said they still don't know what the UK really wants, they're not even sure how long May will still be there.
The EU made an offer nearly two weeks ago which May seems to have ignored any reference to, which is far more comprehensive and removes any uncertainty about people's rights. There is still uncertainty with May's offer, nothing is guaranteed.
There are no conditions with the EU offer, there is with May's
She wants the EU to trust the UK courts whereas only a few months ago these same courts were called the enemies of the people by Brexiteers.
Once the UK is out of the EU they could introduce a law revoking all rights which the EU would have no control of. This is why the EU wants the ECJ.
Furthermore confidence in the UK's credibility is at a very low point. Suggesting that they won't pay what they owe the EU and could possibly walk away damages their reputation even more.
How can the EU trust the UK?
The control of the borders has always been there, maybe Brexiters are starting to realise the UK government and in particular Theresa May were lying to them.
Additionally, this is not to do with the future relationship, this for existing situations of people. If the Uk wants a trade deal the conditions of the four freedoms still stand.
The EU just want to get on with things and don't want to waste time with the UK posturing. The Uk know what the terms are.
In what way will the UK be any different outside the EU. The wealth power and opportunity in the Uk centres around London, has done for donkeys years and will do after the UK leaves. How will leaving the EU change anything?