Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Mozza]

Take the bloody chip off your shoulder.

It's bugger all to do with ' some people don't like foreigners '....

Would your wife have been able to get her visa easier / quicker / cheaper in Belgium or Finland ? Will her visa be easier / quicker / cheaper to get in Belgium or Finland post-Brexit ?

Most people I know in the UK who voted to leave voted to leave because of what the EU is already and is (was ?) going to be like after a few more years of 'more harmonisation and closer integration'

Ask Macron - by your definition, he doesn't like foreigners either.

And what Freedoms are you, personally, sacrificing through BREXIT, can I ask ?

You misrepresent what Macron is saying, since it is posted worker rules he has a specific problem with, not foreigners.

I sacrifice freedom of movement certainly. Not sure what the Tories will do to the Human rights act but I'm not optimistic.

The ugly truth is Brexit would not be happening if people didn't have a problem with foreigners.

I take it you've never been inside a Tesco / Argos / Sports Direct Distribution Centre, then ?

2,000 people per shift; three shifts, 24 / 7; all on zero hour contracts. And most of those employees are already from Eastern Europe and employed by Agencies who recruit them in their own countries and send them to the UK ( or France or Germany ) but pay them ' local ' wages, no pensions, because then everyone can get their Corn Flakes / cuddly toys / trainers a bit cheaper.

No I haven't but that's irrelevant to the question I asked. If anyone who has a job can get in to the uk then this situation continues. Macron is looking to reform the system within the EU

 

[Stanley Road]

You can't get Visa's easily online

Australia took 10 minutes, that was form filling to receiving visa approval. I dunno, maybe 10 minutes is too long for you.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You don't need an eu membership to work anywhere in the eu, if you have something to offer you will be snapped up. I have mentioned this a million times so membership is irrelevant.

Well yes, but that's not in doubt, and at any rate Brexit still adds significant hoops to jump through. I was under the impression from our previous comments on the matter that you went with little to offer though and were hired with no qualifications at a time when 'if you could walk and talk (I think they were your words)' you would get a job.

 

[Mozza]

You don't need an eu membership to work anywhere in the eu, if you have something to offer you will be snapped up. I have mentioned this a million times so membership is irrelevant.

What level of something?

 

[devilish]

There's little space to manoeuvre here. Everyone including Brexiteers are desperate for unrestricted access to the single market + there are plenty of studies that show that EU immigration had a very positive benefit on the UK economy. If Brexit was all about 'leaving the EU shackles' and 'avoid further integration' then it would have used FOM as leverage to push for a sound trade deal (probably EFTA or the Swiss model)

I am not saying that immigration is the beginning and end of Brexit. However its a big big part of it

 

[Full bodied red]

You misrepresent what Macron is saying, since it is posted worker rules he has a specific problem with, not foreigners.

I sacrifice freedom of movement certainly. Not sure what the Tories will do to the Human rights act but I'm not optimistic.

The ugly truth is Brexit would not be happening if people didn't have a problem with foreigners.



No I haven't but that's irrelevant to the question I asked. If anyone who has a job can get in to the uk then this situation continues. Macron is looking to reform the system within the EU

FFS....

 

[Mozza]

Australia took 10 minutes, that was form filling to receiving visa approval. I dunno, maybe 10 minutes is too long for you.

I'm talking about the uk.

Also which passport were you using when applying?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I am referring to Canada being more pro immigration then the UK is. I've yet to see Canada losing out on unrestricted access to the richest market in the world due to xenophobia

Don't they bring people in on conditional visas if they have the skills that they need? Isn't that what we will be implementing?

 

[Mozza]

FFS....

I know, horrible to learn your fellow Brexiters are arse holes

 

[IWat]

There's little space to manoeuvre here. Everyone including Brexiteers are desperate for unrestricted access to the single market + there are plenty of studies that show that EU immigration had a very positive benefit on the UK economy. If Brexit was all about 'leaving the EU shackles' and 'avoid further integration' then it would have used FOM as leverage to push for a sound trade deal.

I am not saying that immigration is the beginning and end of Brexit. However its a big big part of it

My issue is you are automatically associating a desire for a reduction in immigration with xenophobia. I am sure indeed some people voted leave for that reason, but there would be people in pretty much any country who would vote leave for that reason. I voted to leave, I am also very happy with the proposed visa idea which really is not that much different from how Canada approaches its immigration. So apparently I am xenophobic yet I want a Canadian style immigration system, which seems confusing since apparently that's a country that is very pro-immigration.

 

[devilish]

Don't they bring people in on conditional visas if they have the skills that they need? Isn't that what we will be implementing?

They are more pro immigration. As said my relative had just had a baby and the baby was given automatic citizenship no questions asked.

Also Canada is a far richer country with way better standard of living than the UK. If the UK decide to compete with the likes of Canada and Australia on immigration then it will probably lose

 

[Stanley Road]

You misrepresent what Macron is saying, since it is posted worker rules he has a specific problem with, not foreigners.

I sacrifice freedom of movement certainly. Not sure what the Tories will do to the Human rights act but I'm not optimistic.

The ugly truth is Brexit would not be happening if people didn't have a problem with foreigners.



No I haven't but that's irrelevant to the question I asked. If anyone who has a job can get in to the uk then this situation continues. Macron is looking to reform the system within the EU

Good luck with that, in 5 years his successor will be saying the same

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They are more pro immigration. As said my relative had just had a baby and the baby was given automatic citizenship no questions asked.

Also Canada is a far richer country with way better standard of living than the UK. If the UK decide to compete with the likes of Canada and Australia on immigration then it will probably lose

Who says that we are going to compete with Canada and Australia? And your anecdote about the baby is completely meaningless to your point, it does nothing to prove that Canada is pro immigration.

 

[devilish]

My issue is you are automatically associating a desire for a reduction in immigration with xenophobia. I am sure indeed some people voted leave for that reason, but there would be people in pretty much any country who would vote leave for that reason. I voted to leave, I am also very happy with the proposed visa idea which really is not that much different from how Canada approaches its immigration. So apparently I am xenophobic yet I want a Canadian style immigration system, which seems confusing since apparently that's a country that is very pro-immigration.

That would make sense if EU immigration was damaging the UK but it wasn't. It had a positive impact on the UK economy. Brexiters voted to leave the EU which is fair enough. There again they cant expect to be treated better then a third country in terms of a trade deal either.

 

[devilish]

Who says that we are going to compete with Canada and Australia? And your anecdote about the baby is completely meaningless to your point, it does nothing to prove that Canada is pro immigration.

As said Canada is more pro immigration and I gave an example to that. I might give you more news on that when my relative apply for citizenship. A friend of mine applied for British citizenship and had to live without her passport for a year (it was taken away from her as part of the process and told not to bother calling to ask for updates about her process else her application will go back to the queue)

Also note that immigrants do their homework before moving to a new country. I know because I am one. If the UK aims to implement visas at par to Canada and Australia then rest assured that they will end up with sloppy thirds. Actually sloppy fourths since most would rather move to Germany and be treated like citizens

 

[devilish]

My issue is you are automatically associating a desire for a reduction in immigration with xenophobia. I am sure indeed some people voted leave for that reason, but there would be people in pretty much any country who would vote leave for that reason. I voted to leave, I am also very happy with the proposed visa idea which really is not that much different from how Canada approaches its immigration. So apparently I am xenophobic yet I want a Canadian style immigration system, which seems confusing since apparently that's a country that is very pro-immigration.

The only way a reduction in immigration can be justified if its detrimental to the country something that EU immigration was not. Therefore its xenophobia ie fear and hatred of strangers

 

[Mozza]

My issue is you are automatically associating a desire for a reduction in immigration with xenophobia. I am sure indeed some people voted leave for that reason, but there would be people in pretty much any country who would vote leave for that reason. I voted to leave, I am also very happy with the proposed visa idea which really is not that much different from how Canada approaches its immigration. So apparently I am xenophobic yet I want a Canadian style immigration system, which seems confusing since apparently that's a country that is very pro-immigration.

Has immigration cause so many problems that we have to leave the EU to control it?

 

[IWat]

The only way a reduction in immigration can be justified if its detrimental to the country something that EU immigration was not. Therefore its xenophobia ie fear and hatred of strangers

On an overall basis yes, do you think those sections which are constructive are not going to be allowed in? House prices, wage depression in non-skilled jobs are just some of the issues it can cause.

Has immigration cause so many problems that we have to leave the EU to control it?

On my reasons for leaving immigration was not in the top 2-3. So on its own I would say no.

 

[Stanley Road]

Well yes, but that's not in doubt, and at any rate Brexit still adds significant hoops to jump through. I was under the impression from our previous comments on the matter that you went with little to offer though and were hired with no qualifications at a time when 'if you could walk and talk (I think they were your words)' you would get a job.

Correct but the place had more jobs than people and at least I had years of experience but because I hadn't really anything sought after I was not entitled to the 30% rule. My non eu colleagues are highly skilled and earn between 60-100k and pay tax on 70% of their earnings for 8 years. But they are really here for a passport and entry to the UK, that might have chaged

 

[devilish]

On an overall basis yes, do you think those sections which are constructive are not going to be allowed in? House prices, wage depression in non-skilled jobs are just some of the issues it can cause.



On my reasons for leaving immigration was not in the top 2-3. So on its own I would say no.

If according to you immigration is not a problem + according to studies EU immigration had been beneficial to the UK then why put restrictions to it? Why not use FOM as a leverage to get a trade deal with the EU? After all its not as if the UK has an aces in its deck on that regard.

Regarding your second comment. An immigrant would check before moving which countries benefits him the most and act accordingly. If the UK decide to put the same restrictions Australia and Canada then it will be competing with them for the same pool of immigrants. Under such circumstances (+ considering that the UK blames everything under the sun to immigrants) I assure you it will lose out to them. I know because I am an immigrant whose got friends/family who are immigrants in both countries.

 

[Full bodied red]

I know, horrible to learn your fellow Brexiters are arse holes

Hey.....

I'm not a Brexiter - I'm anti-EU and thank the lord that at least the UK had the good sense to see where that particular piece of shit is taking them.

But feel free....Just don't come back complaining when Brexiters on here call immigrants arse holes.

 

[IWat]

If according to you immigration is not a problem + according to studies EU immigration had been beneficial to the UK then why put restrictions to it? Why not use FOM as a leverage to get a trade deal with the EU? After all its not as if the UK has an aces in its deck on that regard.

Regarding your second comment. An immigrant would check before moving which countries benefits him the most and act accordingly. If the UK decide to put the same restrictions Australia and Canada then it will be competing with them for the same pool of immigrants. Under such circumstances I assure you it will lose out to them. I know because I am an immigrant whose got friends/family who are immigrants in both countries.

Studies on EU immigration find as a WHOLE it is beneficial to the UK, not that every EU citizen who comes is beneficial. You can say that Canada is more pro-immigration and I'd agree to an extent, but it's also far easier to be pro-immigration when you are controlling who is coming in and aren't being forced to take people. If Canada is that pro-immigration then why don't they just remove their skilled worker points calculator thing and just let in everyone who wants to come?

Why does the UK recieve about 250,000 migrants per year from the rest of the world where it is 'competing' with Canada and Australia then?

 

[devilish]

Studies on EU immigration find as a WHOLE it is beneficial to the UK, not that every EU citizen who comes is beneficial. You can say that Canada is more pro-immigration and I'd agree to an extent, but it's also far easier to be pro-immigration when you are controlling who is coming in and aren't being forced to take people. If Canada is that pro-immigration then why don't they just remove their skilled worker points calculator thing and just let in everyone who wants to come?

Why does the UK recieve about 250,000 migrants per year from the rest of the world where it is 'competing' with Canada and Australia then?

No one is forcing anyone to take people. The UK agreed to be part of the EU which means it agrees to abide to the 4 freedoms. Once out of the EU it can restrict access to EU immigration and it will also lose the many benefits unrestricted access to the single market provide, something the 'cherry pickers' seems struggling to understand. Its true that not every EU immigrant is beneficial. However is the 'right' to remove the bad apples really worth losing out on such great trade deal especially since the EU already have rules in place to do that. What happens if lets say the EU decide to act the same way with the British elderly immigrants who are using the Spanish/French NHS for free?

The UK is currently an EU country with a sound economy and full access to the single market. Immigrants know that while there's an amount of xenophobics in the government there's always the ECJ protecting them. What happens if everything goes tits up? What happens if the UK ends up with work conditions similar to the US (ie long hours, barely any leave or protection), the NHS is traded off for a trade deal with the US but still retain the same lousy salaries and high expenses? I am not saying that no one would want to come to the UK. All I am saying is that you'll end up with sloppy fourths as immigrants would rather move to the US, Canada, Germany, Australia and co then there. I can answer that myself as I probably won't be in the UK in a year's time.

 

[IWat]

No one is forcing anyone to take people. The UK agreed to be part of the EU which means it agrees to abide to the 4 freedoms. Once out of the EU it can restrict access to EU immigration and it will also lose the many benefits unrestricted access to the single market provide, something the 'cherry pickers' seems struggling to understand. Its true that not every EU immigrant is beneficial. However is the 'right' to remove the bad apples really worth losing out on such great trade deal especially since the EU already have rules in place to do that. What happens if lets say the EU decide to act the same way with the British elderly immigrants who are using the Spanish/French NHS for free?

The UK is currently an EU country with a sound economy and full access to the single market. Immigrants know that while there's an amount of xenophobics in the government there's always the ECJ protecting them. What happens if everything goes tits up? What happens if the UK ends up with work conditions similar to the US (ie long hours, barely any leave or protection), the NHS is traded off for a trade deal with the US but still retain the same lousy salaries and high expenses? I am not saying that no one would want to come to the UK. All I am saying is that you'll end up with sloppy fourths as immigrants would rather move to the US, Canada, Germany, Australia and co then there. I can answer that myself as I probably won't be in the UK in a year's time.

You make it sound like Britain is some country that needs the EU to save itself from fecking up human rights, the foundations which seem to based in pure hysteria rather than actual factual or historic basis. Britain was one of the few countries PUSHING for there to be legal ramifications for breaking the UN's Universal Decleration of Human rights for christ sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36434855

Workers in the UK are entitled to five weeks and three days of paid holiday a year (including public holidays). The Working Time Regulations of 1998 guarantee four weeks of paid leave as a European minimum. But for 35 years before joining the EU, the UK had legislation on paid holidays, so this is unlikely to be affected.

The UK is saying that it will allow anyone currently living here from the EU to apply for settled status which would entitle them to the NHS etc. The EU doing that to current UK immigrants over there would not be at all the same as the UK isn't doing that.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You make it sound like Britain is some country that needs the EU to save itself from fecking up human rights, the foundations which seem to based in pure hysteria rather than actual factual or historic basis. Britain was one of the few countries PUSHING for there to be legal ramifications for breaking the UN's Universal Decleration of Human rights for christ sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36434855



The UK is saying that it will allow anyone currently living here from the EU to apply for settled status which would entitle them to the NHS etc. The EU doing that to current UK immigrants over there would not be at all the same as the UK isn't doing that.

It's based on the Conservatives and Theresa May's hard on for doing exactly that.

If you're confident that the Conservative Party will protect your rights then you're going to be in for a shock.

 

[IWat]

It's based on the Conservatives and Theresa May's hard on for doing exactly that.

If you're confident that the Conservative Party will protect your rights then you're going to be in for a shock.

Have you got any policy paper/working document/cabinet leak etc to back that up?

Theresa May could sack off over a week of entitled holiday for workers tomorrow if she could somehow manage to make it pass a vote.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Have you got any policy paper/working document/cabinet leak etc to back that up?

It's been an absolute fantasy of theirs since at least 2010 and was literally included in the 2015 manifesto.

The exact proposals have never been made clear, but all are couched in typical Tory bollocks about 'creeping infringement' and 'common sense'.

If you search the term 'British Bill of Rights' you'll find at least seven years of Conservative plans on this issue, and plenty of avenues for further reading.

 

[rcoobc]

I don't agree with that. It depends on the level of bureaucracy involved to get one. If you can easily get a visa online then what is the big drama?

Indeed, but if it's *that* easy to get a visa... then why not just have visa free movement (for going on holiday)? What's the point of the visa system?

 

[IWat]

It's been an absolute fantasy of theirs since at least 2010 and was literally included in the 2015 manifesto.

The exact proposals have never been made clear, but all are couched in typical Tory bollocks about 'creeping infringement' and 'common sense'.

If you search the term 'British Bill of Rights' you'll find at least seven years of Conservative plans on this issue, and plenty of avenues for further reading.

Honestly, it's complete scaremongering and as absurd as some of the stuff from Leave during the EU campaign. This is the document, there is nothing in there that could realistically be considered to remove workers rights.

http://readinglists.ucl.ac.uk/items/0228C3DC-4B76-311C-DEF7-0F12767A4F0B.html

Even if there was, it would require parliament to vote it through the changes at a later date, you really think the Conservative party as a whole is going to vote through something that is suicidal to them?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Honestly, it's complete scaremongering and as absurd as some of the stuff from Leave during the EU campaign. This is the document, there is nothing in there that could realistically be considered to remove workers rights.

http://readinglists.ucl.ac.uk/items/0228C3DC-4B76-311C-DEF7-0F12767A4F0B.html

Even if there was, it would require parliament to vote it through the changes at a later date, you really think the Conservative party as a whole is going to vote through something that is suicidal to them?

I'm going to save you the trouble here and say that you probably want to read up on this a bit more before getting in to this debate. You've got 7 years of news to catch up on and you haven't been able to do it in the time between my reply and yours.

 

[IWat]

I'm going to save you the trouble here and say that you probably want to read up on this a bit more before getting in to this debate. You've got 7 years of news to catch up on and you haven't been able to do it in the time between my reply and yours.

I know about the British Bill of Rights, I have asked for some specifics in something that has been written or said in the government that backs up what you are saying which you have not provided. If it's there, it shouldn't be hard to just send me a link and direct me to the correct page?

 

[I Believe]

Good luck with that, in 5 years his successor will be saying the same

In the late 90's and early 00's I worked for the EU, both in this country and at various times in other EU countries and if there is one thing I can tell you from that experience is that the EU is consistent about only one thing, it is its inability to reform itself, internally, there are far too many vested interests and as we all know, 'turkeys don't vote for Christmas'.
Also that was at a time when there were only a relatively few member countries involved in the EU, now there are 28 ( 27when we've left). It is a monolithic entity, prone to corruption and incompetence and total devoid of any meaningful democracy at its highest levels.
Europe does need co-operation, between sovereign countries, it does not need a United States of Europe, that will only become even remotely possible when all the economy's of members states align much better and there is only one currency.
Since we will never give up the Pound (Sterling) its right should leave and leave now! Its the only honest thing we can do!

 

[Stanley Road]

Indeed, but if it's *that* easy to get a visa... then why not just have visa free movement (for going on holiday)? What's the point of the visa system?

Money. In Turkey they charged me for a visa as soon as i landed. They charged everyone going on holiday.

 

[Mozza]

Good luck with that, in 5 years his successor will be saying the same

Could be, but few governments work quickly. I belive decisions like this need to be taken at EU level to stop competitive sacrifice of working rights

 

[NinjaFletch]

I know about the British Bill of Rights, I have asked for some specifics in something that has been written or said in a government that backs up what you are saying which you have not provided. If it's there, it shouldn't be hard to just send me a link and direct me to the correct page?

Again, you're asking me for information that is not in the slightest bit hidden. This isn't a secret, I'm not telling you some fanciful thing like 'Brexit is a good idea', it's been a fairly main point of the Conservatives agenda since they've been in power and there is literally 7 years of news, comments, and analysis on this very issue. There are comments from senior Conservatives on this matter, including Theresa May as both Home Secretary and Prime Minister, and they are easily found.

There's also censure from pressure groups, both national and international; civil rights campaigners; charities; and the UN.

All of which is why I'm spending my entire evening linking the thousands (probably hundreds of thousands tbh) of web pages that discuss an issue that is barely even remotely controversial when you're perfectly capable of finding it yourself.

 

[IWat]

Again, you're asking me for information that is not in the slightest bit hidden. This isn't a secret, I'm not telling you some fanciful thing like 'Brexit is a good idea', it's been a fairly main point of the Conservatives agenda since they've been in power and there is literally 7 years of news, comments, and analysis on this very issue. There are comments from senior Conservatives on this matter, including Theresa May as both Home Secretary and Prime Minister, and they are easily found.

There's also censure from pressure groups, both national and international; civil rights campaigners; charities; and the UN.

All of which is why I'm spending my entire evening linking the thousands (probably hundreds of thousands tbh) of web pages that discuss an issue that is barely even remotely controversial when you're perfectly capable of finding it yourself.

I'm asking for 1 link. It would have taken you less time than that essay. What you are doing is presenting an argument and then expecting me to provide a source on your behalf for your argument.

 

[Mozza]

Money. In Turkey they charged me for a visa as soon as i landed. They charged everyone going on holiday.

So it's a money making exercise, not something that controls migration

 

[Mozza]

Hey.....

I'm not a Brexiter - I'm anti-EU and thank the lord that at least the UK had the good sense to see where that particular piece of shit is taking them.

But feel free....Just don't come back complaining when Brexiters on here call immigrants arse holes.

They didn't vote against the EU, they voted against foreign people. They've been told for the past 30 years that foreign people are responsible for all their woes. They are in for a shock when Brexit doesn't turn out to be the cure all they are expecting.

They call them much worse things than arse holes

 

[NinjaFletch]

I'm asking for 1 link. It would have taken you less time than that essay. What you are doing is presenting an argument and then expecting me to provide a source on your behalf for your argument.

Actually what I'm asking you to do is be informed about issues that you are commenting on, because you weren't at the start and are stubbornly refusing to search for what I have told you to now. I'm not your Mum, you can step out into the big wide world without me holding your hand.

I'm not saying you have to agree with my assessment that to trust the Conservatives with your rights you'd have to be a fool, but to dismiss a near decade of discussion – by people far more qualified than you and I – on the issue as Leave campaign level nonsense without having read any of it is a terrible place to start from. You'll forgive me for not wanting to do that.

 

[Full bodied red]

So it's a money making exercise, not something that controls migration

I have to get visas every time I go to Nigeria and Angola - cost about €500 each visit - even though I directly employ local Nigerians and Angolans.

Can't say as I've ever seen 000's of illegal, economic migrants risking their lives across oceans and war zones to get to those two countries..

Of course it's about money.

And keeping out arse holes who might decide to live there but then spend all their time bitching about what shitty people Nigerians and Angolans are.