Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[JPRouve]

Get out of here you with your facts and correct statements. No place for that sort of thing at all.

To make it a bit less bitchy, I will add a couple of things. These are some of the problems to fix:

- Who can cross the border and how? (1)
- What can cross the border and how? (2)
- In case of trouble which jurisdiction is in charge and how? (3)

(1) The UK don't want FOM, so at best only Irish nationals would be allowed to cross, the problem for the UK and the Irelands is to put in place a checking procedure.
(2) Since the UK said that they wanted out of the custom Union and unless a trade deal is signed, no goods shall/can cross the border freely.
(3) Since the UK wants to avoid the ECJ, we have a huge problem.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

To make it a bit less bitchy, I will add a couple of things. These are some of the problems to fix:

- Who can cross the border and how? (1)
- What can cross the border and how? (2)
- In case of trouble which jurisdiction is in charge and how? (3)

(1) The UK don't want FOM, so at best only Iriish nationals would be allowed to cross, the problem for the UK and the Irelands is to put in place a checking procedure.
(2) Since the UK said that they wanted out of the custom Union and unless a trade deal is signed, no goods shall/can cross the border freely.
(3) Since the UK wants to avoid the ECJ, we have a huge problem.

You've forgotten those Brits trying to sneak out the back way into the EU

 

[JPRouve]

You've forgotten those Brits trying to sneak out the back way into the EU

They are among the "troubles", like a french or greek trying to sneak into the UK in order to attend a PL game.

 

[Wibble]

??????

You can find people who agree with anything no matter how idiotic it is.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They are among the "troubles", like a french or greek trying to sneak into the UK in order to attend a PL game.

You reminded me of something long forgotten, no point in South American players wanting to play in the PL having an EU passport for much longer.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/650459/customs_bill_white_paper_web.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...licy/preparing-for-our-future-uk-trade-policy

Customs and trade

 

[JPRouve]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/650459/customs_bill_white_paper_web.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...licy/preparing-for-our-future-uk-trade-policy

Customs and trade

Is it me or does it look like what you and I among others suggested? "The UK can charge customs duty on goods(including on goods coming from the EU)."

This point was supposed to be a knock against the vindictive EU.

 

[Stanley Road]

So it's the EU's fault, if you decided to leave? Is it the EU who claimed that they wanted to take back control of their borders? And how the EU are supposed to have an open border with a country that isn't in the same custom area?

What do the eu want with that border? Let us know.

Based on recent history its barbed wire fences.

The eu doesnt know what the feck it wants from the eu, let alone what it expects from brexit.

It really is the shittest club ever.

 

[JPRouve]

What do the eu want with that border? Let us know.

Based on recent history its barbed wire fences.

The eu doesnt know what the feck it wants from the eu, let alone what it expects from brexit.

It really is the shittest club ever.

The EU wants what is currently the border but it can't happen because the UK wants something different.

 

[Stanley Road]

The EU wants what is currently the border but it can't happen because the UK wants something different.

Havent read that statement. Sounds like another 'ball in your court' eu cop out.

 

[JPRouve]

Havent read that statement. Sounds like another 'ball in your court' eu cop out.

Remind me what is the proposition from the UK? They are the ones against FOM, they are the ones leaving the custom Union and they are ones cutting the Island in half. They are the ones who should have thought about a way to reconcile their issues with this one.

The cop out isn't on the EU side.

 

[Stanley Road]

Remind me what is the proposition from the UK? They are the ones against FOM, they are the ones leaving the custom Union and they are ones cutting the Island in half. They are the ones who should have thought about a way to reconcile their issues with this one.

The cop out isn't on the EU side.

Obliging the wish of the Irish i expect. Ffs, is that not more important?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Is it me or does it look like what you and I among others suggested? "The UK can charge customs duty on goods(including on goods coming from the EU)."

This point was supposed to be a knock against the vindictive EU.

If they don't remain in the single market /customs union they have to negotiate a new set of tariffs with the WTO which will mean duties , VAT and so on with the EU - looks like an advert to join the EU.

By looking quickly at that paper they seem to have forgotten that they gave up their place with the WTO in 1973 when they joined the EEC and are members only because they are part of the EU and have to re-negotiate their WTO status - I've only skimmed through it but surely they can't be this stupid.

 

[sullydnl]

Obliging the wish of the Irish i expect. Ffs, is that not more important?

What Irish wish is anyone obliging? Ireland is overwhelmingly against all of this.

 

[Stanley Road]

What Irish wish is anyone obliging? Ireland is overwhelmingly against all of this.

Thats ok, eu seems like it wants uk to impose borders. Nice

 

[JPRouve]

Obliging the wish of the Irish i expect. Ffs, is that not more important?

Isn't that a cop out from you? To make it simple they literally offer to change nothing for both sides coming to or leaving the EU, that's FOM for you. They really think that you are imbeciles.

If they don't remain in the single market /customs union they have to negotiate a new set of tariffs with the WTO which will mean duties , VAT and so on with the EU - looks like an advert to join the EU.

By looking quickly at that paper they seem to have forgotten that they gave up their place with the WTO in 1973 when they joined the EEC and are members only because they are part of the EU and have to re-negotiate their WTO status - I've only skimmed through it but surely they can't be this stupid.

It actually seems sensible, the only problem is that when you read it you quickly realize that they are not really leaving the EU. FOM is still in place and they propose to mirror the EU custom

 

[4bars]

Thats ok, eu seems like it wants uk to impose borders. Nice

The EU, didn't want this, and of course the EU doesn't want a responsibility that does not correspond them. UK generated the problem of the borders. Not wanting the responsibilities of what someone else created it does not mean that wants that the other part pays for his responsibilities. Is simply...I don't want to eat your shit. If Irish from EU should be pissed, is at UK, that some people has a weir concept of what NOT WANTING FoM means, or it only works for the FoM that you are interested in?

 

[Full bodied red]

What Irish wish is anyone obliging? Ireland is overwhelmingly against all of this.

Against all of what ??

Against the UK leaving the EU ?

Or against an EU imposed hard border ?

 

[sullydnl]

Against all of what ??

Against the UK leaving the EU ?

Or against an EU imposed hard border ?

Both and then some, especially given the two are directly linked.

 

[Full bodied red]

Both and then some, especially given the two are directly linked.

UK leaving the EU - might be hard and harsh on the Republic, but I don't think too many UK voters were thinking about the effects on the Republic when they were asked if they wanted to REMAIN or LEAVE. Seems that the EU have forgotten the shared history and benefits to Irish and UK citizens coming from The Ireland Act 1949 which is still UK Law, and therefore will take precedence over EU Law post-Brexit as far as the UK is concerned.

The Hard Border - if the Republic doesn't want a Hard Border, speak up to the EU....Shout it loud and clear to the EU....Tell the Taosich to mediate instead of sitting on his arse and and being stubborn....On the other hand, if the Republic do want a Hard Border, just put one up yourselves - I'm sure the EU will pay for it.

 

[sullydnl]

UK leaving the EU - might be hard and harsh on the Republic, but I don't think too many UK voters were thinking about the effects on the Republic when they were asked if they wanted to REMAIN or LEAVE. Seems that the EU have forgotten the shared history and benefits to Irish and UK citizens coming from The Ireland Act 1949 which is still UK Law, and therefore will take precedence over EU Law post-Brexit as far as the UK is concerned.

The Hard Border - if the Republic doesn't want a Hard Border, speak up to the EU....Shout it loud and clear to the EU....Tell the Taosich to mediate instead of sitting on his arse and and being stubborn....On the other hand, if the Republic do want a Hard Border, just put one up yourselves - I'm sure the EU will pay for it.

The world at large: "If the UK votes for Brexit, it will likely mean a hard border for Northern Ireland"

Ireland: "That sounds terrible, please don't vote for Brexit!"

UK: "We'll figure out some solution for the border when the time comes, we're voting for Brexit!"

Ireland: "Oh no this will be a disaster for everybody! Don't do it!"

UK: "Nah, we'll figure something out."

The world at large: "Now that the UK has voted for Brexit, it will likely mean a hard border for Northern Ireland"

Ireland: "Oh noes! Okay UK, what's your idea?"

UK: "........"

Ireland: "......."

UK "......dunno, s'not our fault, the EU did it...."

Ireland: *weeps*

End scene.

 

[Full bodied red]

So what's your solution / preference ?

A Hard Border to ' stay onside ' with the EU ?

And open border to keep the island ' sort of ' together ?

 

[JPRouve]

So what's your solution / preference ?

A Hard Border to ' stay onside ' with the EU ?

And open border to keep the island ' sort of ' together ?

You do realize that it's on the UK, an open border can only exist if you follow EU's rules and are under EU's jurisdictions. You still don't understand what you did?

 

[berbatrick]

So what's your solution / preference ?

A Hard Border to ' stay onside ' with the EU ?

And open border to keep the island ' sort of ' together ?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Accede to all of our demands and disregard the spirit of your referendum; EU speak for 'ball in your court'. These past months have done nothing to engender a feeling of buyer's remorse, that's for sure.

Considering how important it is to them, how about they release an itemised list of our dues and put a precise number on it.

 

[sullydnl]

These were the Irish Taoiseach's comments on the border earlier in the year:

Spoiler

"If anyone is angry, it should be us.”

“What we’re not going to do is to design a border for the Brexiteers because they’re the ones who want a border.

“It’s up to them to say what it is, say how it would work and first of all convince their own people, their own voters that this is actually a good idea.

“Currently there is no economic border. There hasn’t been an economic border since 1992. As far as this government is concerned there shouldn’t be an economic border. We don’t want one.

“It’s the United Kingdom, it’s Britain that has decided to leave and if they want to put forward smart solutions, technological solutions for borders of the future and all of that that’s up to them.

“We’re not going to be doing that work for them because we don’t think there should be an economic border at all. That is our position.

“It’s our position in negotiations with the British Government and it’s the very clear position that we have when we engage with the task force that is negotiating on our behalf with the United Kingdom.

“We do not think it is in the interests of our country. We do not think it’s in the interests of Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom that there should be an economic border between our two countries or on our island and we’re not going to be helping them to design some sort of border that we don’t believe should exist in the first place.

“So let them put forward their proposals as to how they think a border should operate and then we’ll ask them if they really think this is such a good idea because I think it will have a very severe impact on their economy if they decide to go down that route.”

Ireland doesn't want a hard border, which is why it was against Brexit.

However, Ireland will be slow to blame the EU for the direct consequences of a decision made by the UK. Especially when the Irish goverment clearly and repeatedly flagged this potentially dire outcome to the UK prior to the vote. This weird logic where the EU are to blame for things the UK decided to do only really carries within the UK.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

You do realize that it's on the UK, an open border can only exist if you follow EU's rules and are under EU's jurisdictions. You still don't understand what you did?

The point of leaving would be that we aren't and don't want to be anymore though wouldn't it.

The Irish want to keep the border open they are.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

These were the Irish Taoiseach's comments on the border earlier in the year:

Spoiler

"If anyone is angry, it should be us.”

“What we’re not going to do is to design a border for the Brexiteers because they’re the ones who want a border.

“It’s up to them to say what it is, say how it would work and first of all convince their own people, their own voters that this is actually a good idea.

“Currently there is no economic border. There hasn’t been an economic border since 1992. As far as this government is concerned there shouldn’t be an economic border. We don’t want one.

“It’s the United Kingdom, it’s Britain that has decided to leave and if they want to put forward smart solutions, technological solutions for borders of the future and all of that that’s up to them.

“We’re not going to be doing that work for them because we don’t think there should be an economic border at all. That is our position.

“It’s our position in negotiations with the British Government and it’s the very clear position that we have when we engage with the task force that is negotiating on our behalf with the United Kingdom.

“We do not think it is in the interests of our country. We do not think it’s in the interests of Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom that there should be an economic border between our two countries or on our island and we’re not going to be helping them to design some sort of border that we don’t believe should exist in the first place.

“So let them put forward their proposals as to how they think a border should operate and then we’ll ask them if they really think this is such a good idea because I think it will have a very severe impact on their economy if they decide to go down that route.”

Ireland doesn't want a hard border, which is why it was against Brexit.

However, Ireland will be slow to blame the EU for the direct consequences of a decision made by the UK. Especially when the Irish goverment clearly and repeatedly flagged this potentially dire outcome to the UK prior to the vote. This weird logic where the EU are to blame for things the UK decided to do only really carries within the UK.

The EU can be held accountable for the rules the EU sets though can't it?

It is the EU's rules that will prohibit the border being the way the UK and Ireland would prefer it to be.

Now the UK has decided to leave, the EU can hold to its rules on external borders given the changed circumstances or not. Let's not pretend that isn't a choice.

 

[devilish]

The EU can be held accountable for the rules the EU sets though can't it?

It is the EU's rules that will prohibit the border being the way the UK and Ireland would prefer it to be.

Now the UK has decided to leave, the EU can hold to its rules on external borders given the changed circumstances or not. Let's not pretend that isn't a choice.

The UK created this mess and it now expects the EU to bend the rules and sort this out. Sweet.

May i remind you that this issue wouldnt even be a problem if the UK left the EU but stayed in the customs union. Unfortunately none of the options (EU, EEA, Customs Union etc) were deemed good enough for the UK. So for once just take your own responsibility and admit you dont care about the Irish instead of blaming the EU

 

[JPRouve]

The point of leaving would be that we aren't and don't want to be anymore though wouldn't it.

The Irish want to keep the border open they are.

I know that it's the point and you are going to find me one country that has open borders with a country without following common rules. The entire problem here is that you don't want to follow common rules, you want to make your own and then blame the EU.
The situation is in itself very simple, the moment you decided to leave the EU and the Custom Union you recreated the border, that was automatic for the simple reason that you created two areas with two jurisdictions. Now the question is how do you intend to control that border, that you created. When you have an answer to that then we can discuss about a deal that will hopefully make the border useless.

What is asked here is to create a clear environment in case of absence of deal before the day of Brexit, this question can not influence future negotiations.

 

[Stanley Road]

Its just another example of eu shirking, highlight a problem without offering a suggested solution. The fact the issue has arisen cos of the vote is irrelevant.

 

[devilish]

I know that it's the point and you are going to find me one country that has open borders with a country without following common rules. The entire problem here is that you don't want to follow common rules, you want to make your own and then blame the EU.
The situation is in itself very simple, the moment you decided to leave the EU and the Custom Union you recreated the border, that was automatic for the simple reason that you created two areas with two jurisdictions. Now the question is how do you intend to control that border, that you created. When you have an answer to that then we can discuss about a deal that will hopefully make the border useless.

What is asked here is to create a clear environment in case of absence of deal before the day of Brexit, this question can not influence future negotiations.

this

 

[Kentonio]

Its just another example of eu shirking, highlight a problem without offering a suggested solution. The fact the issue has arisen cos of the vote is irrelevant.

Jesus Christ, you actually have the cheek to accuse them of 'shirking' in the same paragraph where you shirk your own responsibility? That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Can we just remember for a second that this isn't some issue that only hurts the Irish? If a hard border leads to renewed violence then its mostly going to be Northern Irish citizens getting killed, not southern Irish citizens.

 

[Stanley Road]

Jesus Christ, you actually have the cheek to accuse them of 'shirking' in the same paragraph where you shirk your own responsibility? That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Can we just remember for a second that this isn't some issue that only hurts the Irish? If a hard border leads to renewed violence then its mostly going to be Northern Irish citizens getting killed, not southern Irish citizens.

They shirk every difficult issue. Thats more a fact than an opinion.

 

[Full bodied red]

The UK created this mess and it now expects the EU to bend the rules and sort this out. Sweet.

May i remind you that this issue wouldnt even be a problem if the UK left the EU but stayed in the customs union. Unfortunately none of the options (EU, EEA, Customs Union etc) were deemed good enough for the UK. So for once just take your own responsibility and admit you dont care about the Irish instead of blaming the EU

Seems to me that the UK does care about what's best for both Irelands.

Silly them to think that the EU might care as well.

Jesus Christ, you actually have the cheek to accuse them of 'shirking' in the same paragraph where you shirk your own responsibility? That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Can we just remember for a second that this isn't some issue that only hurts the Irish? If a hard border leads to renewed violence then its mostly going to be Northern Irish citizens getting killed, not southern Irish citizens.

Why would that be ?

 

[Full bodied red]

Accede to all of our demands and disregard the spirit of your referendum; EU speak for 'ball in your court'. These past months have done nothing to engender a feeling of buyer's remorse, that's for sure.

Considering how important it is to them, how about they release an itemised list of our dues and put a precise number on it.

Tactics....Designed to make it as difficult as possible for the UK.

EU say they won't discuss anything else until agreement on a leaving / divorce settlement, but, of course, won't or can't provide an itemised bill.

Seems absolutely obvious that the EU wants to cut all ties with the UK on BREXIT day and they are using the refusal to provide the leaving / divorce settlementl as their main weapon

Davis et al are too polite / desperate to actually come out and say that, but it's probably getting near the time when the UK should perhaps put the ball back in the EU's court and say that the UK has already agreed to pay what's correct and reaonable, which it has, but he can't discuss anything else ( ECJ, FoM, Transition Period, Irish Border ) till he's seen the bill. Certainly, it's time for the UK to grow a pair.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Why would that be ?

Look up "The Troubles" and you'll see why.

There's no religious divide in the south.

We're long past those days though so I doubt we'll see killings, somehow.

 

[devilish]

Seems to me that the UK does care about what's best for both Irelands.

Silly them to think that the EU might care as well.





Why would that be ?

I am aware of Westminster’s historical relationship with the Irish. No one in Europe had such sort of relationship with the country and its people and tbf I doubt that anyone would want to have that either. You only have to hear Mr Brexit himself on LBC to understand the Brexiters love towards Ireland. In his opinion, Ireland should either leave the EU and trust its historical friendship with the UK for a great trade deal or else the UK should consider kicking Northern Ireland out of the UK.

On a serious note it was the UK who left Europe (and Ireland) not viceversa. It was the UK who refused any alternative plan (EEA, Customs union etc) which would have kept the status quo between the UK and the Republic of Ireland not the EU. What the EU is halting any trade deal negotiations with the UK up until the latter decides to gets serious on the matter and come out with viable solutions.

So seriously stop blaming the EU especially since you’re the ones who forced a change in relationship between Europe (including Ireland) and the UK and you’re the ones who refused any available option to that relationship.

 

[devilish]

Tactics....Designed to make it as difficult as possible for the UK.

EU say they won't discuss anything else until agreement on a leaving / divorce settlement, but, of course, won't or can't provide an itemised bill.

Seems absolutely obvious that the EU wants to cut all ties with the UK on BREXIT day and they are using the refusal to provide the leaving / divorce settlementl as their main weapon

Davis et al are too polite / desperate to actually come out and say that, but it's probably getting near the time when the UK should perhaps put the ball back in the EU's court and say that the UK has already agreed to pay what's correct and reaonable, which it has, but he can't discuss anything else ( ECJ, FoM, Transition Period, Irish Border ) till he's seen the bill. Certainly, it's time for the UK to grow a pair.

To think that Brexiteers once said that the EU would be too desperate to sell prosecco and BMWs to the UK market to allow that to happen. I guess its time for some solid reality check. You're not that important to Europe (and probably the US and India) as Brexiteers thought.

I agree with most you've said especially the two in bold.

Having said that, I strongly believe that the UK will get its transitional period IF it agrees to sort the famous three problems (EU citizens rights, the Irish border issue and paying the bill) and agrees to obey EU laws up until the end of that transition period. I also believe that the UK will end up taking that option too. It really has no choice on the matter.

 

[Kentonio]

We're long past those days though so I doubt we'll see killings, somehow.

Let's take a look at things that happened this year from the BBC's handy timeline..

February 2017

• A bomb explodes outside the home of a serving police officer in Londonderry on 22 February as Army experts try to defuse it. The device, which police described as more intricate than a pipe bomb, was reportedly discovered under a car in Culmore in the city. Children were in the area at the time, police said.
• A gun attack on a 16-year-old boy in west Belfast on 16 February was "child abuse," a senior police officer said.
  
• The attack followed a similar one the previous night, when a man was shot in the legs close to a benefits office on the Falls Road.

January 2017

• A police officer is injured in a gun attack at a garage on north Belfast's Crumlin Road on 22 January. Police said automatic gunfire was sprayed across the garage forecourt in a "crazy" attack. A 36-year-old man is arrested and police say the main line of inquiry is "violent dissident republicans".
• The number of paramilitary-style shootings in west Belfast doubled in 2016 compared to the previous year, according to police figures. The figures do not take into account three shootings in Belfast's Turf Lodge area since the start of January.
• On 15 January, police say a bomb discovered during a security operation in Poleglass, west Belfast, was "designed to kill or seriously injure police officers".
• A judge on 6 January revokes the bail of a County Tyrone man facing trial on charges linked to the murder of prison officer David Black. Damien Joseph McLaughlin, 40, of Kilmascally Road near Ardboe, is due to stand trial in February. The court is told Mr McLaughlin had not been seen by police since November.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072

That's only 2 months. I've long believed that the BBC and other news channels have been deliberately downplaying trouble in Northern Ireland to help keep the peace process on track (I'm not saying thats a bad thing btw). Last time I went to NI, the local radio was reporting 2 people shot in the previous 24 hours, and I'd heard nothing about it on national news.

Northern Ireland is obviously a long way from the warzone it used to be, but its equally not the peaceful, fully healed place some people seem to think it is now. Sticking a hard border up could lead to devastating consequences which is why its such a major issue and one of the first items in the negotiations.

Why would that be ?

As @Massive Spanner points out, the divide is mainly in the north not the south, so thats where you'll see the vast majority of the violence. Having fixed border crossing points also pretty much guarantees that they'll be a major target.