Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[simonhch]

He's obviously a fantastic manager. Only flaws are that he's exceptionally dogmatic and prone to mental fatigue.

I know he's seen as an innovator but as tactical systems evolve over the next decade, his unwillingness to adapt and reinvent could be his undoing. The great long term managers are always capable of reinvention. Hard to judge him on something that hasn't happened yet, though.

 

[adexkola]

I don't really think you can say that so early on in his City career - especially given the games against Everton, Bournemouth, West Brom have been pretty tight. Last season the league caught him out so it's natural he shoul dbe better prepared this season. Criticism will come by Xmas if they're not top (or v near), same for Jose.

Pep's career didn't start at City, contrary to what PL enthusiasts will proclaim.

 

[serghei]

I don't really think you can say that so early on in his City career - especially given the games against Everton, Bournemouth, West Brom have been pretty tight. Last season the league caught him out so it's natural he shoul dbe better prepared this season. Criticism will come by Xmas if they're not top (or v near), same for Jose.

Judging by how Chelsea set up against City in the last game, I think City are already the most feared team in the league. They won nothing, but are the most feared team, that says everything about Guardiola. I'd be surprised if United doesn't park the bus as well when they face City. Even at home.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Pep's career didn't start at City, contrary to what PL enthusiasts will proclaim.

Surely that's an obvious fact. Not sure how that ties into my point?

 

[JASR]

...Could he achieve the same thing without City's unlimited chequebook, probably not but that doesn't matter as he does have an unlimited budget and is probably going to be a success despite the hate from us United fans. Unlimited funds almost always leads to success is a rule that is seldom ever violated as we have seen with Chelsea, City, Real Madrid and PSG(only a matter of time). Even David Moyes could probably coach City to a title or two with the budget Pep has! There is no shortcoming in the City team that couldn't be rectified by spending another 300m so it is hard to judge a manager given the unlimited resources at his disposal.

1. Chequebook/funds are not unlimited. Hyperbollox. Though it's very true that spending more than anyone else is generally a way to build a platform for consistent success. E.g. Rio et al.

Although if Messi arrives in January, I may have to revise my 1st assertion.

2. It's not 300m this season. You're Closer to truth though (224m) on that one...but good amortisation or crappy net spend comparisons bring it just above United spending this season 17/18.
City net: 138m ish
United net: 137m ish

But that's for 8 incoming players for City, only 3 for United.

3. David Moyes had similar (football inflation) money to use at United, I highly doubt he could have got the City players playing well if he'd been the chosen one at City. Money can't replace throwing out a structure built over 25 years.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

"He’s one of the top ten coaches since the 1950s who have contributed to the evolution of football," Sacchi said.

He added: "(Guardiola) has carried forward total football even more. He is adding to it, making it better. He is a great coach and Manchester City play in his way with a real style.

“We’re friends. We’ve known each other for a long time. He came to see how I worked when I was at Real Madrid. He’s an obsessive, a perfectionist, he thinks deeply about football.

“He’s in the tradition of Ajax’s Rinus Michels and Cruyff.

“Guardiola once said to me, ‘I owe everything to you and Cruyff’. I said to him, ‘Without Rinus Michels, there would have been no Cruyff and no Guardiola today.’”

"I watched Chelsea-Manchester City and it seemed like a different sport,” he said. “It was an extraordinary match, one of the best I've ever seen - fantastic."

- Arrigo Sacchi

 

[Womp]

"He’s one of the top ten coaches since the 1950s who have contributed to the evolution of football," Sacchi said.

He added: "(Guardiola) has carried forward total football even more. He is adding to it, making it better. He is a great coach and Manchester City play in his way with a real style.

“We’re friends. We’ve known each other for a long time. He came to see how I worked when I was at Real Madrid. He’s an obsessive, a perfectionist, he thinks deeply about football.

“He’s in the tradition of Ajax’s Rinus Michels and Cruyff.

“Guardiola once said to me, ‘I owe everything to you and Cruyff’. I said to him, ‘Without Rinus Michels, there would have been no Cruyff and no Guardiola today.’”

"I watched Chelsea-Manchester City and it seemed like a different sport,” he said. “It was an extraordinary match, one of the best I've ever seen - fantastic."

- Arrigo Sacchi

Wouldn't every manager be contributing to to the evolution of football in one way or another? Such an odd statement. There's more to football than that Tiki Taka stuff. There are different ideals and tactics, which is what makes the sport so great.

 

[FCBarca]

"He’s one of the top ten coaches since the 1950s who have contributed to the evolution of football," Sacchi said.

He added: "(Guardiola) has carried forward total football even more. He is adding to it, making it better. He is a great coach and Manchester City play in his way with a real style.

“We’re friends. We’ve known each other for a long time. He came to see how I worked when I was at Real Madrid. He’s an obsessive, a perfectionist, he thinks deeply about football.

“He’s in the tradition of Ajax’s Rinus Michels and Cruyff.

“Guardiola once said to me, ‘I owe everything to you and Cruyff’. I said to him, ‘Without Rinus Michels, there would have been no Cruyff and no Guardiola today.’”

"I watched Chelsea-Manchester City and it seemed like a different sport,” he said. “It was an extraordinary match, one of the best I've ever seen - fantastic."

- Arrigo Sacchi

The innovators in the game recognize the brilliant contributions & courage of someone like Guardiola in football. His legacy will be among the greatest to have coached the game and it will continue to inspire new coaches all over the globe but as Sacchi correctly points out it begins with the Dutch

 

[Treble]

Wouldn't every manager be contributing to to the evolution of football in one way or another? Such an odd statement. There's more to football than that Tiki Taka stuff. There are different ideals and tactics, which is what makes the sport so great.

Even Moyes and The Big Sam?

Sacchi doesn't deny that there are different ideals and tactics. However, the tradition of Michels, Sacchi and Guardiola has produced arguably the most special teams over the last 50 years in Ajax (71-73), Milan (88-90) and Barca (09-11). Obviously, there is something to it.

You are perfectly right though that the variety of winning styles is what makes football such a great game. It's great that for every Cruyff and Guardiola there is a Ferguson and a Mourinho.

 

[Lawman]

1. Chequebook/funds are not unlimited. Hyperbollox. Though it's very true that spending more than anyone else is generally a way to build a platform for consistent success. E.g. Rio et al.

Although if Messi arrives in January, I may have to revise my 1st assertion.

2. It's not 300m this season. You're Closer to truth though (224m) on that one...but good amortisation or crappy net spend comparisons bring it just above United spending this season 17/18.
City net: 138m ish
United net: 137m ish

But that's for 8 incoming players for City, only 3 for United.

3. David Moyes had similar (football inflation) money to use at United, I highly doubt he could have got the City players playing well if he'd been the chosen one at City. Money can't replace throwing out a structure built over 25 years.

I see the old net spend getting rolled out again. That is dangerous as it takes us into squads that managers inherited. No doubt Pep inherited a far better squad than Jose in my opinion. Hence he should be further on in the development plus he was here longer and quite a bit of you believe he was allowed to sign players under Pelegríni.

 

[Thunderhead]

I see the old net spend getting rolled out again. That is dangerous as it takes us into squads that managers inherited. No doubt Pep inherited a far better squad than Jose in my opinion. Hence he should be further on in the development plus he was here longer and quite a bit of you believe he was allowed to sign players under Pelegríni.

Pep inherited the oldest squad in the league, it was an average squad living on past achievements and with the likes of Bony, Clichy, Kolarov who everyone could see were past it. Add in a player like Sterling who had lost all confidence a crock in your best defender and it wasn't a very good squad, most of the players he got rid of this season should have gone 2 or 3 seasons ago.

Only player I could see that he possibly agreed to signing would have been Sterling but that was over 6 months before he declared he was leaving Bayern so I'm not 100% sure he'd have any input in that, only players I could see he would possibly have had input in were in his first transfer window, Stone, Sane etc

 

[Womp]

Even Moyes and The Big Sam?

Sacchi doesn't deny that there are different ideals and tactics. However, the tradition of Michels, Sacchi and Guardiola has produced arguably the most special teams over the last 50 years in Ajax (71-73), Milan (88-90) and Barca (09-11). Obviously, there is something to it.

You are perfectly right though that the variety of winning styles is what makes football such a great game. It's great that for every Cruyff and Guardiola there is a Ferguson and a Mourinho.

I should have been clearer, all top managers*

Also maybe they have been very impressive, but other managers have also done things just as impressive playing completely different styles of football. Mourinho and his early CL wins, our 2008 win etc.

This idea that the tiki taka style is so superior to other styles, especially considering it's not a practical style for 90% of teams in the world (you need a squad of very good players to implement such a style) is wrong imo. As much as one touch passing is enjoyable to watch, I also love seeing quick transitions and some great counter attacking sides.

Even if it were possible, to see all teams playing the same stuff would be so tedious. Managers like Mourinho and Simeone etc. are contributing to the sport by going against the grain and mustering up ways to counter tiki taka. All top managers contribute to the sport.

 

[adkb]

I don't understand why he moves clubs so often. His approach is similar to SAF. Both need time to get their team right. Due to the influx of money he sort of skips that process and in a season or two he would have the players he wants. No doubt he is the best there is. But joining sugar daddy clubs means he is undermining his own worth. He can develop any team into a top team sadly he chooses clubs that need instant results. He could stick to one club and build a dynasty from the youth to the first team. I wish that happens. That will be the day he will truly be above everyone else.

 

[do.ob]

I don't understand why he moves clubs so often. His approach is similar to SAF. Both need time to get their team right. Due to the influx of money he sort of skips that process and in a season or two he would have the players he wants. No doubt he is the best there is. But joining sugar daddy clubs means he is undermining his own worth. He can develop any team into a top team sadly he chooses clubs that need instant results. He could stick to one club and build a dynasty from the youth to the first team. I wish that happens. That will be the day he will truly be above everyone else.

He's supposedly an obsessive perfectionist who tries to micromanage everything. Which might be a big reason why his teams can play such great football, but it also likely means that players/squads will eventually "grow tired" of him.

 

[GhastlyHun]

I don't understand why he moves clubs so often. His approach is similar to SAF. Both need time to get their team right. Due to the influx of money he sort of skips that process and in a season or two he would have the players he wants. No doubt he is the best there is. But joining sugar daddy clubs means he is undermining his own worth. He can develop any team into a top team sadly he chooses clubs that need instant results. He could stick to one club and build a dynasty from the youth to the first team. I wish that happens. That will be the day he will truly be above everyone else.

Define often? He's at his third club ever.

 

[FCBarca]

Define often? He's at his third club ever.

Third club in 9 years. By comparison, Mou over 16 years as a coach changed clubs 7 times.

 

[Stocar]

Even if it were possible, to see all teams playing the same stuff would be so tedious. Managers like Mourinho and Simeone etc. are contributing to the sport by going against the grain and mustering up ways to counter tiki taka. All top managers contribute to the sport.

It's actually the opposite. Most managers keep things simple and play more reactive brand of football. The ones you mention are the best. It's managers like Sacchi, Bielsa, Guardiola, Sarri, etc. that go against the grain and try to play more complex, and usually more imaginative and adventurous football. That's why they get so much appreciation. And I think that football would be more fun if there were more managers like them around.

 

[dichinero]

It's actually the opposite. Most managers keep things simple and play more reactive brand of football. The ones you mention are the best. It's managers like Sacchi, Bielsa, Guardiola, Sarri, etc. that go against the grain and try to play more imaginative and adventurous football. That's why they get so much appreciation. And I think that football would be more fun if there were more managers like them around.

This

 

[FCBarca]

It's actually the opposite. Most managers keep things simple and play more reactive brand of football. The ones you mention are the best. It's managers like Sacchi, Bielsa, Guardiola, Sarri, etc. that go against the grain and try to play more complex, and usually more imaginative and adventurous football. That's why they get so much appreciation. And I think that football would be more fun if there were more managers like them around.

This is what Guardiola refers to as lacking courage

 

[Womp]

It's actually the opposite. Most managers keep things simple and play more reactive brand of football. The ones you mention are the best. It's managers like Sacchi, Bielsa, Guardiola, Sarri, etc. that go against the grain and try to play more complex, and usually more imaginative and adventurous football. That's why they get so much appreciation. And I think that football would be more fun if there were more managers like them around.

The best managers win trophies - I don't give a shit about style of football played. Pep is amongst the best because he just does that, win trophies. If he didn't win anything, he can yap on about diamonds and shite as much as he wants - he wouldn't be taken as seriously. It's really that simple. It's why managers like Klopp etc. are seen as a tier below the big boys. If Pep wasn't winning trophies no-one would be on forums talking about him revolutionising the sport.

Having more managers like them around is difficult considering as I've stated, you need some of the World's best players to implement such a system. Pep has still been very good since Barca, but it's no surprise he hasn't been anywhere near as dominant without Messi and co.

SAF didn't give into this nonsense of having one idealistic approach to football and never adapting because it's 'cowardly' and he's considered by many to be one of the best managers ever, if not the best. Being able to create dominating sides is very impressive no doubt, but being a manager who's capable of adapting to situations and nullifying threats like that is also just as impressive.

In fact Pep's arrogance is most likely his achilles heel as a manager - his style comes before results. Which is all fine and well, but not every club, nor manager has the resources to implement nor gives a shit about that.

As has been shown over the years - you don't need to play tiki taka to be appreciated and to influence the sport. Take Leicester for example or Madrid who have just won two back to back Champions League's playing a more 'basic' style of football. Something that apparently isn't as impressive.

 

[Lawman]

Pep inherited the oldest squad in the league, it was an average squad living on past achievements and with the likes of Bony, Clichy, Kolarov who everyone could see were past it. Add in a player like Sterling who had lost all confidence a crock in your best defender and it wasn't a very good squad, most of the players he got rid of this season should have gone 2 or 3 seasons ago.

Only player I could see that he possibly agreed to signing would have been Sterling but that was over 6 months before he declared he was leaving Bayern so I'm not 100% sure he'd have any input in that, only players I could see he would possibly have had input in were in his first transfer window, Stone, Sane etc

So Augero, Silva, Hart, Kompany, KDB, Ferndinho x2 are/were all bad players? 4 of them would walk into our starting 11 right now. Plus Sterling is a £50m player and that was before this seasons madness made prices rocket. He also had good solid pro's in other positions like Toure, Zabaleta, kolarov who granted were getting on a bit. Mangala they spent a fortune on has never been seen (albeit not Peps doing).
Pep has spent well over €400m and won nothing if like last year he flounders come Christmas his job must be in serious doubt.

 

[rotherham_red]

The best managers win trophies - I don't give a shit about style of football played. Pep is amongst the best because he just does that, win trophies. If he didn't win anything, he can yap on about diamonds and shite as much as he wants - he wouldn't be taken as seriously. It's really that simple. It's why managers like Klopp etc. are seen as a tier below the big boys. If Pep wasn't winning trophies no-one would be on forums talking about him revolutionising the sport.

Having more managers like them around is difficult considering as I've stated, you need some of the World's best players to implement such a system. Pep has still been very good since Barca, but it's no surprise he hasn't been anywhere near as dominant without Messi and co.

SAF didn't give into this nonsense of having one idealistic approach to football and never adapting because it's 'cowardly' and he's considered by many to be one of the best managers ever, if not the best. Being able to create dominating sides is very impressive no doubt, but being a manager who's capable of adapting to situations and nullifying threats like that is also just as impressive.

In fact Pep's arrogance is most likely his achilles heel as a manager - his style comes before results. Which is all fine and well, but not every club, nor manager has the resources to implement nor gives a shit about that.

As has been shown over the years - you don't need to play tiki taka to be appreciated and to influence the sport. Take Leicester for example or Madrid who have just won two back to back Champions League's playing a more 'basic' style of football. Something that apparently isn't as impressive.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Wouldn't every manager be contributing to to the evolution of football in one way or another? Such an odd statement. There's more to football than that Tiki Taka stuff. There are different ideals and tactics, which is what makes the sport so great.

Some are obviously more influential than others, as in every field.

 

[Lawman]

The best managers win trophies - I don't give a shit about style of football played. Pep is amongst the best because he just does that, win trophies. If he didn't win anything, he can yap on about diamonds and shite as much as he wants - he wouldn't be taken as seriously. It's really that simple. It's why managers like Klopp etc. are seen as a tier below the big boys. If Pep wasn't winning trophies no-one would be on forums talking about him revolutionising the sport.

Having more managers like them around is difficult considering as I've stated, you need some of the World's best players to implement such a system. Pep has still been very good since Barca, but it's no surprise he hasn't been anywhere near as dominant without Messi and co.

SAF didn't give into this nonsense of having one idealistic approach to football and never adapting because it's 'cowardly' and he's considered by many to be one of the best managers ever, if not the best. Being able to create dominating sides is very impressive no doubt, but being a manager who's capable of adapting to situations and nullifying threats like that is also just as impressive.

In fact Pep's arrogance is most likely his achilles heel as a manager - his style comes before results. Which is all fine and well, but not every club, nor manager has the resources to implement nor gives a shit about that.

As has been shown over the years - you don't need to play tiki taka to be appreciated and to influence the sport. Take Leicester for example or Madrid who have just won two back to back Champions League's playing a more 'basic' style of football. Something that apparently isn't as impressive.

Fair points and agree with most but Pep had inherited an outrageously talented squad at Barca probably with 6-7 world class players plus Messi. Jose pipped him to a title in this time. He was amazing the trophies he won but think most top or capable managers would have won these things with Messi and co as has been demonstrated since he left. He also inherited the second best team in the planet going to Bayern where Dortmund were on a downward spiral in an already one horse league. City for me are his acid test in a league where 4-5 teams challenge for the trophy. And in my opinion he went to the club with the strongest squad possibly arguably other than Chelsea.

 

[AgentP]

It's actually the opposite. Most managers keep things simple and play more reactive brand of football. The ones you mention are the best. It's managers like Sacchi, Bielsa, Guardiola, Sarri, etc. that go against the grain and try to play more complex, and usually more imaginative and adventurous football. That's why they get so much appreciation. And I think that football would be more fun if there were more managers like them around.

A bit off-topic but were would you categorize Zidane. He doesn't seem to fall in either of these groups in my eyes. His team don't really change their system much to counter the opposition. But neither does his team play an expansive style of football the likes of Guardiola get their team to play.

 

[Stocar]

A bit off-topic but were would you categorize Zidane. He doesn't seem to fall in either of these groups in my eyes. His team don't really change their system much to counter the opposition. But neither does his team play an expansive style of football the likes of Guardiola get their team to play.

I'd say he's obviously very smart and has an aura of confidence. Just like he was as a player. It seems he's more interested in keeping things simple than imposing a particular vision. He reminds me of Ancelotti, a calming influence that knows how to get the best out of his players.

 

[Zebs]

Think you've posted in the wrong thread.

I agree though, it's bloody ludicrous thinking.

You're right, deleted!

 

[JASR]

I see the old net spend getting rolled out again. That is dangerous as it takes us into squads that managers inherited. No doubt Pep inherited a far better squad than Jose in my opinion. Hence he should be further on in the development plus he was here longer and quite a bit of you believe he was allowed to sign players under Pelegríni.

Ffs it's not 'net spend rolled out again' its 'crappy net spend' ... for a large part of the population they only understand gross spend. For a smaller part of the population they can understand net spend... and for a small part of the population they can put aside red/blue tinted glasses and understand basic finance.

 

[Lawman]

Ffs it's not 'net spend rolled out again' its 'crappy net spend' ... for a large part of the population they only understand gross spend. For a smaller part of the population they can understand net spend... and for a small part of the population they can put aside red/blue tinted glasses and understand basic finance.

That's not fair though. If we go into two separate businesses at the same time like Pep and Jose have (clubs) and you have more valuable assets to start with (Pep/City). Then it's hardly fair to use the so called 'crappy net spend' as that skews the picture. If you don't get that then I'm sorry but I'm actually not sure you are understanding the concept and the large part of the population you write about are correct.

 

[KirkDuyt]

While absolutely not without faults, I do like the way Pep leaves such a visible mark on his teams' playstyle. It's tremendous to watch once it gets going too. His obvious flaw is not recognizing when to change tactics (Bayern vs Real). He has the same disease the Dutch have in general, accepting that you should adapt to a stronger opponent. Luckily for him, there aren't many stronger opponents on paper. Yes that's because he has a lot of funds at all his clubs, but who cares, everyone wants him, can't blame him for not taking a job at Hull city.

For me Pep's brand of football will go down in history as having added something to the game, even if he never wins one again. Same can't be said for a lot of other top manager imho.

 

[FCBarca]

I'd criticize his attire today tbh, he can do better

 

[Trizy]

He can coach a team to all right. City will annihilate us come December. I'm afraid it will end up like the 5-1 drubbing Madrid suffered. Utter domination.

If we play like we did against Liverpool today then they will.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Rightfully so they look like they are going to walk away with the league this season

I’m still holding hope they will slump soon like they did last season.

But it’s hard to say a bad word about him, they play the right way, score loads of goals and look a cut above everyone else

 

[Sylar]

The test is when they get a few more injuries and a team or two try to nullify them and it works
Right now it reminds me of last season (buy with better width)

He's a top coach but want to see city away at the top teams (tbf did excellent against Chelsea but morata going off was a boost)

 

[Kapardin]

He can coach a team to all right. City will annihilate us come December. I'm afraid it will end up like the 5-1 drubbing Madrid suffered. Utter domination.

Cheee...bright ray of sunshine right there. Relax.

 

[ivaldo]

He can coach a team to all right. City will annihilate us come December. I'm afraid it will end up like the 5-1 drubbing Madrid suffered. Utter domination.

This the side that drew with Burnley annihilating is?

 

[Randall Flagg]

The test is when they get a few more injuries and a team or two try to nullify them and it works
Right now it reminds me of last season (buy with better width)

He's a top coach but want to see city away at the top teams (tbf did excellent against Chelsea but morata going off was a boost)

Aguero is out and they scored 7.

Also mendy out for the season

They’ve had a few injuries in fairness

 

[Sylar]

Aguero is out and they scored 7.

Also mendy out for the season

They’ve had a few injuries in fairness

Ah i meant a few in same position, kinda like how we've had a few out in defence at one time
Or today having two midfielders who would defo start

One here and there I think they're covered like us. A few together would make a difference

 

[Hugh Jass]

Good bet to win it. Probably only ourselves and Spurs can challenge.

 

[Skills]

feck they're good aren't they. Won the big games so far and thrashing everyone else