Mourinho will be pissed because now he's basically proven that he's a better manager. Pep did have his flaws of course, but he's grown a lot and changed his play to fit the league and fix the holes in his squad. He's also very good at finding what he needs. Mourinho and him started pretty much at the same point, similar overall quality sides, finished level on points before they both took over, with similar budgets. United I'm pretty confident will be in the top 3 to end the season, good chance of 2nd place, but we aren't a patch on City in terms of our play. Pep spent a feck ton to have a solid defence with a functional attack, while Pep's spent a feck ton but has gotten them playing brilliant attacking football while also having generally a decent defence.
Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It
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A bit early to judge. He is dominating the prem right now, but there are no european top tier clubs in it at the moment. A bit like when he trained us - dominating the Bundesliga like no other manager before him, more or less without a chance against the big ones. Judge him after matches in the Cl against Barca, Real, PSG.
Apparently, he's had the best start to a season in his career to date.
To me, Bayern dominating Bundesliga is not a particularly impressive feat. I think Bayern under Heynckes played better and got better results against tough teams and he appears to have picked it right back up coming out of retirement.
Not to detract from this thread but I think going from Heynckes to Ancelotti to Guardiola would've made much more sense for Bayern instead of Pep before Carlo, because I think Guardiola cut and slashed the treble winning team a little too much too soon.
Not nice to acknowledge but City had a much better team than us in place but seriously underperformed last season.
Problem is he likes it when all his 10 players are in the opponents half - that makes spaces very tiny, and against world class defenders this can be annoying boring. In Barcelona he had Messi, at City he has no comparable player.
Mourinho is the best be the best defensive tactician between them, and Guardiolas attacking football clearly is better than the way Mourinhos teams are attacking.
Mourinho handles most of the transfers himself, while Guardiola cooperates with a DOF, though only one of them did something with the fullbacks this summer. Which was a big issue for both teams last season.
And seeing as only players on one of the teams seems to have improved over the last year, one of them must be doing something that is very effective on the training field.
Mourinho handles most of the transfers himself, while Guardiola cooperates with a DOF, though only one of them did something with the fullbacks this summer. Which was a big issue for both teams last season.
And seeing as only players on one of the teams seems to have improved over the last year, one of them must be doing something that is very effective on the training field.
We let that happen and it has nothing to do with jose or any particular guy. Glazers started the rot, Sir alex let it happen. When we were buying Owen, oberton, kagawa, bebe, falcao they were adding some quality buys like aguero, silva and kDB. We never took the noisy neighbors seriously and today we expect jose to turn everything around. He took charge of a sinking ship and pep took charge of a steady ship which just needed to be energised.
But yes it is sad we have let city become a real force while doing nothing special about it to stop it.
Yes I don't know why people think we had some special squad . Jose took over a sinking ship while pep took over a steady ship which just needed to motivated and slightly fixed.
I have no problem pep being credited because he deserves it but to over exaggerate everything is irritating
I think that's the key point, really. Last season he struck me as too true to his weird ways in a van Gaal style 'philosophy' thing, but I think he's fixing that a lot now. A lot less needless tinkering and the side is really performing well.
Can you really "worship" a manager like Pep? I simply can't, I'm not denying his tactical nouse, or his ability to coach his players to his style, but without being at a top team with a fat wallet I don't think he would be where he is. Last season he showed what he is, a manager who only has one way to play, he has no plan B.
All top teams have fat wallets, and as long as he's performing, he'll always be managing one of those clubs. The only scenario where he isn't is if he's failed for a period of time at the big clubs. This hasn't, and doesn't look like happening anytime soon. I don't think anyone can criticise Pep for just doing at rich, big clubs. These are often the hardest positions to manage for multiple reasons, and many manages simply can't handle the step up, regardless of the money they have to spend.
Before the start of last season, id say it was somewhat similar. De bruyne, Silva and Aguero of course were quality from before, the rest trash though. Go to the end of the 15/16 season though and most people wouldve put Martial as a quality player with potential to be world class, rashfords potential, then mata being a very good player. Plus bringing in pogba. They had a very old side other then that, plenty of injury problems, plenty of holes. We had a younger side missing a top striker, winger and mid. We brought in Miki, Pogba and Ibra to close that gap, and IMO, squad wise it was very similar. Put pep in charge of United and Mourinho at City after the 2016 summer transfer window and I think you'd still see Peps side (us) being a brilliant attacking team, top of the league while Mourinho would be settng City up defensively and grinding out results at times. Its just how they are. They both had pretty much an equal playing field, Mourinho still chose to make a pragmatic side with no plan of attack, pep chose an all out attacking side basically.
Don't think that's fair. No manager can win stuff without having a great team. There's no proof with him since he's never managed team that weren't full of great players, but if you look at other similar managers, they did well at small clubs playing the same football...
That's a fair point but I can't say I'm in awe of the man, he's crass and TBH not very likeable. He doesn't seem to acknowledge how much better the clubs or the teams he has managed is compared to the rest of the league. Last season when things weren't going his way he was like a child who didn't get his favourite toy. I just find him very hard to like.
I can't just judge a manager on what he has won, it's not gaugable without looking at his resources. Like I said given the resources he is superb, but for me a great manager should be judged on more than that, last season tells me more about Pep than this one.
Amen to that. Sadly, people who are serial winners tend to be that way.
Thats not where most of our goals come from, I’d say we are more reliant on fast turnover of the ball and attacking the space when the opponent is stretched. We’ve become more effective in tight spaces though for sure. Mainly because we’ve figured out how to utilise silva and De Bruyne properly in the same side.
I'm back @VanGaalEra
Good timing, we need the shit to hit the fan for them.
Well, at least he did not spend 90 million pounds on just one player. Say what you want he definitively spent the money more wisely than the other chequebook manager in the league.
You have the the right to have an opinion, but your response here just seem to come out of sheer bitterness.
"worship" is a strong word and personally think people go far in claiming to worship any manager or player, I think the title is just a joke on the caf since the title before said was more negative in the start of the season.
"but without being at a top team with a fat wallet I don't think he would be where he is. Last season he showed what he is, a manager who only has one way to play, he has no plan B."
Isn't that almost every manager? Both Poch and Mou have shown they don't necessary have a plan b either. I've always said plan b is overrated, as it doesn't exist personally.
"He doesn't seem to acknowledge how much better the clubs or the teams he has managed is compared to the rest of the league."
What do you mean? When he was asked in Germany about his success at Barcelona he pointed towards Messi, Xavi and Iniesta and said you'd have to ask them, he thanked Jupp for the team he gave him, when asked about Sterling improvement he said it was all Sterling, Lineker asked him a few weeks back on what made a good coach he responded by saying the quality of the players. He thanked his players after winning manager of the year, as well as taking picture with his entire coaching staff. Doesn't tell me he doesn't acknowledge how good the players, coaching staff around him are.
"I can't just judge a manager on what he has won, it's not gaugable without looking at his resources. Like I said given the resources he is superb, but for me a great manager should be judged on more than that, last season tells me more about Pep than this one."
So one season out of his 9 seasons of coaching tells you everything you need to know? Many managers have failed with big resources look at Milan spending 200m this summer, Liverpool spending Suarez money or even your Spurs when you spent Bale money, Barcelona with Neymar money.
Pep also isn't just judged on titles or winning, he's been hailed by many who has revolutionized the game today, Sacchi himself said that Pep is one of the top 10 visionaries in the history of this game. Pirlo is his autobiography would speak about how him and Nesta when they were at Milan wanted to kidnap Pep from Barcelona as they were so fascinated by the way his team plays, his coaching, etc.
At the end he's renowned for his style of play, his teams pressing, work rate, positional aspect of the game, development of certain players. Many coaches have gone to him such as Tuchel, Zidane, Verira, etc to learn a little, the guy had bloody rugby coach Eddie Jones come to his training session and whenever he gets the chance he gushes over his work.
You mean his first season in a new league? Most managers take a season to adapt and get their players to adapt to their own ideas. Look at the improvement in their individuals as well as the unit. They bought big but I reckon a lot of the improvement would have happened anyway. I mean are we saying Mendy and Danilo are the reason Pep had improved so many City players so much?
I have mentioned it last season that Pep could have won EPL if he didn't have a poor keeper like Bravo.
And this season he has so much better keeper and look at how he smashed the league. The thing is about Pep & City, Pep is lucky when he came to City because City has the right players that hold the key of his success & his tactic which are KDB & David Silva.
If he came to United, he would have been struggled because we didn't have the right midfielders for him. Carrick is too old and can't play every week. And there was no player available who are on par or similar to KDB & David Silva at that time, I don't think Pogba has the same style as KDB, Scholes, Silva & Xavi unless if he can make him to be one.
And this season he has so much better keeper and look at how he smashed the league. The thing is about Pep & City, Pep is lucky when he came to City because City has the right players that hold the key of his success & his tactic which are KDB & David Silva.
If he came to United, he would have been struggled because we didn't have the right midfielders for him. Carrick is too old and can't play every week. And there was no player available who are on par or similar to KDB & David Silva at that time, I don't think Pogba has the same style as KDB, Scholes, Silva & Xavi unless if he can make him to be one.
Pep's issues last season were slow fullbacks and Bravo. He solved all three issues in the market and normal service was resumed for city. We in comparison haven't solved our lack of a world class attacker problem, our lack of a winger problem and now fullback and AM problem has cropped up
I agree with all you say, I've said for what he is, a manager that needs exactly the right environment and resources to succeed, he is unrivalled. But to me that doesn't in turn mean he is the best manager. I'm not going to compare him to Poch, simply because I have no argument there in terms of a return in silverware, but I will say I respect Poch much more in the way he carries himself and his own ideas on the sport. Il also say I personally believe Jose is the better manager, proving himself in a much broader spectrum of football. Again I will say Pep is a good manager, but he is what he is, he spends for success and needs a certain perfect environment for his team to succeed.
What I mean about his failure to acknowledge his situation is that he pays very little regard for his opponent, it's like when bigger teams chant "your shit" at an apponent that is significantly less well resourced than they are.
Also the whole idea that Pep created this hard press and demanding a high work rate is a bit hard to swallow. I remember playing a very low level of school football where our coach demanded we got in the "opponents faces" and "left it all on the pitch", it's not new it's just Pep has refined it.
You say last season was ok because Pep was new last season, he still had arguably the best team on paper but completely disregarded the strength on the PL and thought he could coast it. I have no problem with fans who think he the best but I simply don't agree, there is a reason he has moved a lot and that's simply his style of play and the way he uses his players won't work in the long term, players wil ultimately stop pushing so hard, he is not a patch on Fergison no matter what he wins. It's just my view but a managers spending, or indeed overspending, must reflect and be taken into consideration when assessing their ability.
Lastly I think people writing this season off and just giving it up to City is very premature, they probably will ultimately win but at some point they will go through a sticky patch and anything can happen.
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I don't think fullbacks are the main issue last season. With the same full back but a better and top quality keeper, he would still win the league last season.
It was pretty clear Bravo was Pep's guy, so that call must ultimately fall at his feet.
This how I feel. When they came in both sides had finished equal, both of them have had the same time and both spent more than the GDP of actual countries and the difference is night and day. They are playing great football, and they are sweeping everything aside while we still can't coherently attack. I said before the season starts that if either of them fail to deliver a PL or CL title its a failure, and right now they're walking this league.
Listen, Pep is a master tactician with a great footballing philosophy I dont think anyone can deny him that. Hes also quite good in the transfer market and obviously hes had some of the best players on his teams.
His teams play in a certain way and they were all entertaining. If we had him at United and Mourinho was at City that poll result would drastically change.
If he stays long term in City he could usher in an era of true dominance in the league.
His teams play in a certain way and they were all entertaining. If we had him at United and Mourinho was at City that poll result would drastically change.
If he stays long term in City he could usher in an era of true dominance in the league.
He always buys all the players he wants for whatever the price. He is yet to win a trophy for City.
He may win PL this season, but that only one.
He may win PL this season, but that only one.
And poor finishing
What exactly has mourinho done that is much different from pep in that regard, just that pep has done it better. Also he has got the likes of sterling playing well, look at sterling with england and with city and you see the impact the man has had on him, no player has improved in that way for us under mou yet.
Not entirely accurate. Ter Stegen was the principal target since both Mats and Bravo were unsettled at Barcelona and the rotation Lucho used - all the links were to the German for City and until the Barcelona board made him a priority, the shift to Bravo then occurred. Either way, Bravo remains an important member of the squad - all his teams always had two key keepers
That was down to Aguero being out of form mostly
But it was costly, a significant factor in their season both domestically & in Europe
I disagree. City suffered last season mostly because of the slowness, age and lack of creativity of their fullbacks. Now with faster, better quality fullbacks its no coincidence they are miles better both in defence and attack. Pep is another manager whose system of play is very reliant on the quality of his fullbacks. The vast improvement especially in quality of attacks has bred confidence in the attacking players and hence their finishing vastly improved.
Their fullbacks were a big part of it, no question but had they converted the wealth of chances they had all season they would have picked up at least 1 trophy IMHO
I also think there is considerable & perhaps expected improvement across the pitch due to understanding what has been demanded of them by Pep, you think less and react quicker to situations due to repetition & practice of the tactics/ideas. Moreover, there is a discernible swagger in their step now, they do not look like crumbling when faced with some adversity. Of course, it's still quite early and things could still change quite a bit but these things jump out
Its true better finishing could have helped. But their defending was dire due to no pace in fullback areas. Which made the high line and playing out the back nigh untennable. In addition in attack, the likes of Sterling and Sane could not drift from wide areas to inside right positions, to a) support the lone striker and b) improve the quantity of quality supply to him because the fullbacks were a) not quick enough to maintain the width that the cutting in wingers would vacate , b) not quality creatively to deliver constant good balls in the box and C) unable due to a and b to help create overloads in center midfield. Because of just that change in personal in the fullback areas City of now compared to last season are like night and day.
That's the thing, it's never just one factor but a series of them. Even now, they are without Mendy who they brought in to provide what you (Along with platooning Danilo) but look what they are using at LB, Delph. That's why I think only in next season will they likely be able to profit from the attacking width of the FBs they pursued this summer. Even during his time at Barcelona, there would be suspensions, injuries etc. whereby he had to move pieces around to ensure they could push in attack - they just suffered fewer issues in terms of being clinical
I still think it's the one area this City team might face struggles, finishing (Of course, you could say that about any team) more than their issues at FB
Defensively they are not
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