"Blackface" Discussion

Its not quite the same symbol. The Nazi symbol always has the red, black and white with circle and orientation at a 45 degree angle. Original swastikas were never at that 45 degree angle

SWAS2.jpg
It's my fault for the slight swastika derailing, so I apologise to all for that. I was just hamfistedly trying to highlight the stupidity of some of these arguments, in an inadvertently clunky way.
There is a clear difference and as an aside, I love my black Kali statue.
 
Ok let's not make perculiar comparisons, he does live in Madrid after all.

In any case the reaction of the people from Spain in this thread suggests they do not think blackface is that big of deal there regardless of Madrid adapting the Three Kings parade, so that's another reason to be forgiving of Griezmann. He's fast becoming a global mega star, with that comes the expectations beyond just Spain.
For the record, I'm on the side of "it's wrong". I just think like you that it was ignorance/lack of knowledge that made him do it. Should be mentioned, should be taken up, and should be let go with the apology. In my opinion of course. Which seems like what's been happening.

Personally had no clue about "blackface" being a thing. Neither as a racial issue or as something people even did. I'm just way to secluded and until I joined the caf i never bothered looking into debates between people of a bastant viewpoint (which is often the case with sensitive topics). Now I know a bit more. :)
 
Who the bugger would ever be convinced that the 'Soul Man' guy was actually black? Worst make-up ever.
 
Gotta love how fourbars refuses to see the point. He ain’t having none of that today :nono:


What is the point? I mean, your point. Because I am stablishing my point

I will resume my point:

-Griezmann picture:
·Action: In some countries can be considered racist, in others no. In the second case, it can be considered moronic because they might know that there is other countries that it could be considered racist
·The person (Grizmann): IMO I do not think he is racist
·Reactions to it: I find fair that Grizmann should be advised about it as he has followers around the world, what it directs me back to the action considered as moronic. I do not find fair that he is being roasted because of as I am trying to explain and the main point that I am trying to make, nobody should be lynched (figure of speak) because they did an action unknowingly offensive because is not part of their culture but from another one
 
Ok let's not make perculiar comparisons, he does live in Madrid after all.

In any case the reaction of the people from Spain in this thread suggests they do not think blackface is that big of deal there regardless of Madrid adapting the Three Kings parade, so that's another reason to be forgiving of Griezmann. He's fast becoming a global mega star, with that comes the expectations beyond just Spain.


And is not, because the origins and the society are completely different regarding black people and the characterization. That is the problem, I understand where the blackfacing comes from in US, you seem to not understand from where it comes from in Spain even if I would repeat it over an over
 
Who the bugger would ever be convinced that the 'Soul Man' guy was actually black? Worst make-up ever.

The rubbish make up job was part of the absurdity of the film. The audience obviously knew but we were expected to believe that the family didn't.
 
The rubbish make up job was part of the absurdity of the film. The audience obviously knew but we were expected to believe that the family didn't.
The fact that it's only a movie was obviously lost on me, chief. :D
 
And is not, because the origins and the society are completely different regarding black people and the characterization. That is the problem, I understand where the blackfacing comes from in US, you seem to not understand from where it comes from in Spain even if I would repeat it over an over

Well you're not very clear to be fair but I agreed with you. Blackface is not seen as much of a big deal in Spain so Griezmann has a legimate excuse.

However his twitter is not just restricted to Spain, so he has to deal with the fact that blackface is a big sign of intolerance across a large section of the world so that's why he quite rightly had to apologise.
 
Quick question for the several sensible posters here who have pointed out that until this incident, they had never heard the term "blackface" before. Before yesterday, how many of you would have happily decided to paint your face black for a fancy dress party without asking someone's advice on whether or not it was a good idea, or conducting a quick google search first?

I only ask because I don't think anyone on this thread has condemned him for not being aware of the specific history of "blackface". Most of us have simply said that someone who profits from public exposure and social media, should be more informed and sensible about decisions which will reflect on them in public.

It's 2017. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.
 
Always found it a bit weird how Robert Downey Jr. literally did the for an entire movie in Tropic Thunder with barely a peep from the media.
Because (supposed) irony is the new excuse to use blackface.
 
Always found it a bit weird how Robert Downey Jr. literally did this for an entire movie in Tropic Thunder with barely a peep from the media.
Because (supposed) irony is the new excuse to use blackface.

To be fair they did include Brandon T.Jackson's character calling him out on it very early on in the film, and the point of his character is to demonstrate the lack of diversity in Hollywood casting as well as the stereotypes associating with blackface. It's a sensitive issue but the entire film is a satire.

Painting yourself into whatever color hasn't been on for a very long time e.g Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's.
 
Always found it a bit weird how Robert Downey Jr. literally did the for an entire movie in Tropic Thunder with barely a peep from the media.

Or maybe there was a peep, but you weren't paying attention?
https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2008/aug/08/heresrobertdowneyjrinblac

The joke in Tropic Thunder was Kurt Lazarus (Downey Jr's character) who thought that putting on blackface and having a fake accent was all he needed to adequately portray an African-American soldier. The other characters constantly berate him on how ridiculous and racist he is being. Especially so since he was Australian and had no clear knowledge of the black American heritage he was was trying to portray. The caricature there was not the black man, but the white man trying to portray the black man.

They took risks with that movie, and had some backlash, but the general consensus was that since it was explaining the ridiculousness of blackface rather than normalising it was just about acceptable.
 
Or maybe there was a peep, but you weren't paying attention?
https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2008/aug/08/heresrobertdowneyjrinblac

The joke in Tropic Thunder was Kurt Lazarus (Downey Jr's character) who thought that putting on blackface and having a fake accent was all he needed to adequately portray an African-American soldier. The other characters constantly berate him on how ridiculous and racist he is being. Especially so since he was Australian and had no clear knowledge of the black American heritage he was was trying to portray. The caricature there was not the black man, but the white man trying to portray the black man.

They took risks with that movie, and had some backlash, but the general consensus was that since it was explaining the ridiculousness of blackface rather than normalising it was just about acceptable.
Since blackface is not exactly frequently used in modern movies, the makers' & actors' try-hard defence seems weak to me...much the same as Griezmann's 'tribute' - the intention actually seems to be comic, despite the claims of irony or, in Griezmann's case, homage.
 
Quick question for the several sensible posters here who have pointed out that until this incident, they had never heard the term "blackface" before. Before yesterday, how many of you would have happily decided to paint your face black for a fancy dress party without asking someone's advice on whether or not it was a good idea, or conducting a quick google search first?

I only ask because I don't think anyone on this thread has condemned him for not being aware of the specific history of "blackface". Most of us have simply said that someone who profits from public exposure and social media, should be more informed and sensible about decisions which will reflect on them in public.

It's 2017. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.

I wouldn't paint my face black regardless on whether I'd heard the term blackface, for a fancy dress party or in any given situation for that matter. It's plain common sense that painting your face black to impersonate a black person or, say, putting make-up on so that your eyes look slanted to impersonate an Asian person is just a no-no.

That being said, I'll have to say I don't like the direction you're going here for it just screams SJW outrage in my book. Griezmann has admitted that he's wrong, brought the post down and apologised for what he did - rightly so - and that should be the end of it. Unlike the Lukaku chant controversy where sadly some of our fans thought it's clever to single Lukaku out intentionally by reinforcing an age-old stereotype of blacks, there's no clear intent (though a racist act is a racist act, intent or no intent) on Griezmann's part to offend black people by painting himself black.

Footballers aren't known for their intelligence and there's just no need to condemn what he did even further. Griezmann should have known better, absolutely, but to give him even more slack for what he did is unfair to him due to the grave implications these days of being deemed a racist. Not many would care to make the distinction that whilst what he did was a racist act, it doesn't necessarily make him a racist.
 
Since blackface is not exactly frequently used in modern movies, the makers' & actors' try-hard defence seems weak to me...much the same as Griezmann's 'tribute' - the intention actually seems to be comic, despite the claims of irony or, in Griezmann's case, homage.

Seemed weak to quite a few people. Not everyone was happy with it. You're still free to feel however you want about it.

Blackface is not common nowadays. But as @InfiniteBoredom mentioned, another theme explored by this was the lack of diversity in Hollywood casting. Gylenhall playing the protagonist in Prince of Persia, Ben Afleck playing Tony Mendez in Argo and Jolie playing Mariane Pearl in a Mighty Heart some relatively resent memories.
 
White people love wearing our skin as if it’s a costume, then when we get upset they tell US that it’s not racist and we shouldn’t be offended.

Honestly I’m sick of it and some of these replies are disgusting.

And anyone who compares this to White Chicks isn’t even worth it.

Stunning and depressing at the same time.
 
Seemed weak to quite a few people. Not everyone was happy with it. You're still free to feel however you want about it.

Blackface is not common nowadays. But as @InfiniteBoredom mentioned, another theme explored by this was the lack of diversity in Hollywood casting. Gylenhall playing the protagonist in Prince of Persia, Ben Afleck playing Tony Mendez in Argo and Jolie playing Mariane Pearl in a Mighty Heart some relatively resent memories.

or when matt damon played a guy who wasnt from boston in invictus
 
I wouldn't paint my face black regardless on whether I'd heard the term blackface, for a fancy dress party or in any given situation for that matter. It's plain common sense that painting your face black to impersonate a black person or, say, putting make-up on so that your eyes look slanted to impersonate an Asian person is just a no-no.

That being said, I'll have to say I don't like the direction you're going here for it just screams SJW outrage in my book. Griezmann has admitted that he's wrong, brought the post down and apologised for what he did - rightly so - and that should be the end of it. Unlike the Lukaku chant controversy where sadly some of our fans thought it's clever to single Lukaku out intentionally by reinforcing an age-old stereotype of blacks, there's no clear intent (though a racist act is a racist act, intent or no intent) on Griezmann's part to offend black people by painting himself black.

Footballers aren't known for their intelligence and there's just no need to condemn what he did even further. Griezmann should have known better, absolutely, but to give him even more slack for what he did is unfair to him due to the grave implications these days of being deemed a racist. Not many would care to make the distinction that whilst what he did was a racist act, it doesn't necessarily make him a racist.

The direction I'm going? I'm simply responding to people who use terms like SJW and PC gone mad to say it was a non issue and he did nothing wrong.

I'm not looking to slam him further. He did eventually apologise after first telling people to calm down and that's that. But it's lazy to generalise footballers as not being known for their intelligence and by brushing aside events like this as soon as the person bows to the inevitable apology, nobody learns from it and the same mistakes just keep happening.

He would have sat in talks at his club about appropriate use of social media. His agent and management team will have spoken to him about it. He'll be fully aware that every week there is someone in hot water over saying or doing something silly on social media.

I'm not trying to be outraged or condemn him as an unforgiveable racist. I'm just saying, and have been saying all along, that he's a fecking idiot. People in public positions need to start being smarter.
 
Great post.

Imagine my surprise, I work with someone who does a mr t impression if I or any black person disagrees with something. They start spouting “I pity the fool, who xyz” no reason, other than I guess their limited/ignorance experience and exposure to black people.

Similar thing happens at lunch, if I suggest something which has chicken, or is from a black culture such as Jamaican food, suddenly a down south middle aged fat black woman impressoin is deemed appropriate, “mm mm mm I sho love me some chicken”

I guess to some in here, that’s completely acceptable.

Our HR would be all over that sort of thing. You would be lucky to keep your job.
 
I think fancy dress is all about getting in character. If that character is typically a different colour I can't see how it's a problem.

If a black guy wanted to be Prince William I think he'd struggle to have the same effect without while makeup.

Is that offensive, hell no!

I get there is a history, etc, where this has been misused. But guns have killed people, does that make everyone in America a murderer. Penises have caused rape, does that make every man a rapist.

I know these things are not the same, but the point holds. Just because someone used something in a way that was negative does not mean someone else using that something is also using it in a negative way.

I think being overly sensitive to such things only increases the divide. Griezmann has a known public great relationship with Pogba. It's obvious he is both not racist and if anything appreciates black culture. Why can't he share that appreciation in his own way.

I think it's actually racist to suggest otherwise.

you should get into the character of a smarter person
 
I think fancy dress is all about getting in character. If that character is typically a different colour I can't see how it's a problem.

If a black guy wanted to be Prince William I think he'd struggle to have the same effect without while makeup.

Is that offensive, hell no!

I get there is a history, etc, where this has been misused. But guns have killed people, does that make everyone in America a murderer. Penises have caused rape, does that make every man a rapist.

I know these things are not the same, but the point holds. Just because someone used something in a way that was negative does not mean someone else using that something is also using it in a negative way.

I think being overly sensitive to such things only increases the divide. Griezmann has a known public great relationship with Pogba. It's obvious he is both not racist and if anything appreciates black culture. Why can't he share that appreciation in his own way.

I think it's actually racist to suggest otherwise.

I have this vision of a talking penis shouting "Go on. You know she wants it. She's absolutely gagging for it".
 
Quick question for the several sensible posters here who have pointed out that until this incident, they had never heard the term "blackface" before. Before yesterday, how many of you would have happily decided to paint your face black for a fancy dress party without asking someone's advice on whether or not it was a good idea, or conducting a quick google search first?

I only ask because I don't think anyone on this thread has condemned him for not being aware of the specific history of "blackface". Most of us have simply said that someone who profits from public exposure and social media, should be more informed and sensible about decisions which will reflect on them in public.

It's 2017. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.
Not at all for me.
But i'm not a party/festive person, so the chances of me going to a dress-up in and of itself is close to zero.
If i were to go, painting my skin wouldn't happen unless it was a kids party or something like that. Certainly wouldn't be black.
 
The direction I'm going? I'm simply responding to people who use terms like SJW and PC gone mad to say it was a non issue and he did nothing wrong.

I'm not looking to slam him further. He did eventually apologise after first telling people to calm down and that's that. But it's lazy to generalise footballers as not being known for their intelligence and by brushing aside events like this as soon as the person bows to the inevitable apology, nobody learns from it and the same mistakes just keep happening.

He would have sat in talks at his club about appropriate use of social media. His agent and management team will have spoken to him about it. He'll be fully aware that every week there is someone in hot water over saying or doing something silly on social media.

I'm not trying to be outraged or condemn him as an unforgiveable racist. I'm just saying, and have been saying all along, that he's a fecking idiot. People in public positions need to start being smarter.

It goes without saying that what Griezmann did was wrong and he was rightly called out for it. I'm just not comfortable when those criticisms go overboard and as a result skew people's perception that because what he did was racist it accordingly renders him as one. Like I said, only a few are prepared to make the distinction that whilst what he did was undoubtedly racist it doesn't automatically make him a racist (though it definitely does make him an idiot). A quick Twitter search on 'griezmann blackface' confirms that not many have made that distinction.

People in public positions will always, one way or another, inevitably make mistakes regardless of the amount of filtering they receive. I'm talking more in a general sense but as a public figure you just can't please everyone, there'll always be some who'd be unnecessarily outraged by things they don't agree with. It's a part of life unless you want to live in an overly-sanitised world.
 
It's my fault for the slight swastika derailing, so I apologise to all for that. I was just hamfistedly trying to highlight the stupidity of some of these arguments, in an inadvertently clunky way.
There is a clear difference and as an aside, I love my black Kali statue.

No need to apologize. I think some tangents can be very informative. For instance @JustAFan provided some information I never knew about the Native American use of the swastika from Navajo tribes and how a US military unit adopted it until 1930.

I also got an informative message from a new member @_TraLaLa_ who can't post in the main forums who provided some great information on the swastika historic use in Bulgarian culture - another thing I had no idea about. So I for one, found it interesting these historic uses over the ages from different cultures.

_TraLaLa_ said:
In Bulgaria the swastika is the symbol of the sun. We have many churches and castles with the symbol and if the cross is orientated clockwise the symbol is a prayer for the living, counter clockwise for the dead. The symbol is depicted and at 45 degrees but I don't remember what does it mean when it's not at 90 degrees. At christmas the swastika is formed at the top of the christmas bread. The swastika is incorporated in christianity but it's a very old symbol in Bulgaria, from the time when the Bulgarians were worshipers of the sun. We keep many of the traditions, like driving of the evil spirits with scary mask, fire dancing and many others. I embedded links with swastika motive in national clothes (I don't know if this is the right term in English), carpets and cloth with which the ceremonial(christmas) bread is wrapped. The second to last link is from church the last is the bread.

http://static.bnr.bg/gallery/e8/e8029df503fffadd797c190199e88b51.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c3/11/95/c311955a47fd424ee782641652035ba5--folk-costume-bulgarian.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pVW-4wt7...gLwerQ8AYuRAMfrdArxBg6KlegvQCLcB/s1600/28.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mcNyKbvE...PEngbUolHi1tmrpOwzJQ63PraKyACLcB/s1600/14.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qlccR7V7...eA35Is5ZQjSx3LcFnyNki_p3Sd5wCLcB/s1600/13.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K_SlXpJl...7FTg-8b4tT6bYTDSDhEyAEIdAKZwCLcB/s1600/19.jpg

http://prarodinata.blog.bg/photos/88147/original/SW/Lukovit.png

http://prarodinata.blog.bg/photos/88147/original/SW/Buicheni.jpg

https://www.google.bg/imgres?imgurl=http://www.webphoto.ro/poze/sunnybeach/swastika.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.webphoto.ro/bulgaria/sunny-beach-and-nessebar-a-happy-encounter-between-modern-tourism-and-tradition.html&docid=WNTo4XKojrZNKM&tbnid=kAnhDYw7l5prpM:&vet=10ahUKEwiMtKPv3pTYAhXJGOwKHRUgBZ4QMwgtKAYwBg..i&w=820&h=550&bih=949&biw=1920&q=bulgarian swastika&ved=0ahUKEwiMtKPv3pTYAhXJGOwKHRUgBZ4QMwgtKAYwBg&iact=mrc&uact=8

http://zvezdichka.blog.bg/photos/8593/DSCN7632(1).jpg

pp. for the bread - one is of two swastikas one over the other (clockwise and counter clocwise), the other is only with the one swastika. You can see the sun at the center of the swastika.
 
I didn't know Norway was the majority of europe nor that you were the majority of norway. In my several international football groups, no one knew the term, specially in countries like Spain, France, Italy that english language is not well learnt till the youngest generations.

I know that my few friends is not a sample big enough, but I can tell you that 90% in Spain don't know the term and significance, basically because decent english speakers are scarce, like in france, italy and other countries in europe.
I never claimed I was representative of the Norwegian population, nor that Norway was the majority of Europe, so I don't know what you're on about.

You erroneously assumed I was American due to me seeing blackface as a negative thing, and I merely pointed out that I'm Norwegian to illustrate that it's not a view exclusive to Americans. In fact, there are probably dozens of people in this very thread who are not American yet still recognize it as something negative.


As for the parade and Balthazar: I've seen a lot of images, which range from a white dude painted brown (demonstrated here by RvN), to a white dude done up as a caricature of a black man. I think the first one is pretty bad, but at least it's not a caricature, and it seems innocent enough. The latter is, regardless of intent, racist as all hell. It's a depiction of black people that goes hand-in-hand with them being portrayed as lazy, dim-witted simpletons. There simply is no defending it, and suggesting it wasn't influenced by said caricatures is a boldfaced lie. And the same goes for Zwarte Piet.
 
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