So what!?
Pep has the Premier League already won and doesn't need to rest players - Wigan won fair and square.
Manchester City 17/18 discussion | "If you're here for the Champions clap your hands" (#6505)
- Thread starter simonhch
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
So what!?
Pep has the Premier League already won and doesn't need to rest players - Wigan won fair and square.
He was on about shaktar...
I meant Barca has much more consistency in the league yet Real have won much better in the CL.
That is a complete lie, if someone achieved something that betters what we have done,then I will give a team credit for it, but currently City have not done so, and are not currently on target to do so.
Come on. You know that City would have to do twice as much to get half the credit than a team that are not currently getting under your skin.
If it was Bayern or AC Milan then I might believe it but sorry I'm not buying what you're selling.
@Lentwood In order to not delay the thread, I will respond on here as I think it is more relevant.
Your list of players include as you say a number of players who have been injured and others who are not starters for them. My point was specifically about their first team as I was talking about the quality of football they produce.
If you are arguing that they invested heavily in their squad, there is no doubt about that. It's an investment that is on par with PSG, Real Madrid's back in 2009 and ours post Fergie. I am talking here of course from a purely financial point of view. No team other than those 4 have bought so many for so much in such a short space of time adjusted to inflation of course.
What I was arguing was more against this notion that City have a huge individual quality advantage over the rest in the league. If that was not your point, then I apologize for misunderstanding. It's just such a silly over hyping to their players that has for some reason become trendy on here over the past few months. Some of our fans treat their players as though they are a who's who of CL winners and Ballon d'Or nominees when apart from Silva and Agüero, none of them has achieved anything of that significance in their career to warrant that level of hype. They have invested a lot but they were mostly young promising talents like Stones, Sterling, Sané and Jesus no different to our Rashford and Martial and decent players if not established world beaters like Walker or Ederson. De Bruyne is obviously a special case but again before Guardiola, he achieved less and had a lower profile than Pogba did when he arrived to us. Fernandinho and Otamendi are hardly world class which leaves David Silva and Agüero who are undisputed top performers but again, it's not exactly Messi and Iniesta is it?
So what I am trying to say is that sure they have a brilliant squad. Before this season, it was a squad made of a couple established top class players, a number of promising talented youngsters and a bunch of good squadies. This to me sounds less Real Madrid or Barcelona and more our level or Chelsea's. If we start calling that world class, I am not sure what word should we use to refer to Real's squad that is made of WC and CL winners and Balon d'Or finalists.
As for your last point about what Pep could have done with what we have, my answer is he wouldn't even negotiate the idea of having someone who is not comfortable on the ball. He is a single minded type of manager in terms of what he wants so someone like Fellaini, Lukaku, Smalling and a couple of others are a non starters for him, he most likely would have played Blind and Pereira over Smalling an Fellaini. Mourinho builds differently, he is willing to compromise and is not too bothered about developing a technical game at all costs so he builds in a way that finds a place for the strengths of such technically limited individuals, the downside is obviously lagging behind in terms of technicality and fluidity. One thing for sure is that neither managers can complain that they were not backed but both can rightfully point to the likes of Barcelona, Real and PSG as teams possessing of higher individual quality.
Your list of players include as you say a number of players who have been injured and others who are not starters for them. My point was specifically about their first team as I was talking about the quality of football they produce.
If you are arguing that they invested heavily in their squad, there is no doubt about that. It's an investment that is on par with PSG, Real Madrid's back in 2009 and ours post Fergie. I am talking here of course from a purely financial point of view. No team other than those 4 have bought so many for so much in such a short space of time adjusted to inflation of course.
What I was arguing was more against this notion that City have a huge individual quality advantage over the rest in the league. If that was not your point, then I apologize for misunderstanding. It's just such a silly over hyping to their players that has for some reason become trendy on here over the past few months. Some of our fans treat their players as though they are a who's who of CL winners and Ballon d'Or nominees when apart from Silva and Agüero, none of them has achieved anything of that significance in their career to warrant that level of hype. They have invested a lot but they were mostly young promising talents like Stones, Sterling, Sané and Jesus no different to our Rashford and Martial and decent players if not established world beaters like Walker or Ederson. De Bruyne is obviously a special case but again before Guardiola, he achieved less and had a lower profile than Pogba did when he arrived to us. Fernandinho and Otamendi are hardly world class which leaves David Silva and Agüero who are undisputed top performers but again, it's not exactly Messi and Iniesta is it?
So what I am trying to say is that sure they have a brilliant squad. Before this season, it was a squad made of a couple established top class players, a number of promising talented youngsters and a bunch of good squadies. This to me sounds less Real Madrid or Barcelona and more our level or Chelsea's. If we start calling that world class, I am not sure what word should we use to refer to Real's squad that is made of WC and CL winners and Balon d'Or finalists.
As for your last point about what Pep could have done with what we have, my answer is he wouldn't even negotiate the idea of having someone who is not comfortable on the ball. He is a single minded type of manager in terms of what he wants so someone like Fellaini, Lukaku, Smalling and a couple of others are a non starters for him, he most likely would have played Blind and Pereira over Smalling an Fellaini. Mourinho builds differently, he is willing to compromise and is not too bothered about developing a technical game at all costs so he builds in a way that finds a place for the strengths of such technically limited individuals, the downside is obviously lagging behind in terms of technicality and fluidity. One thing for sure is that neither managers can complain that they were not backed but both can rightfully point to the likes of Barcelona, Real and PSG as teams possessing of higher individual quality.
No far from it, if a team beats or betters a record by ourselves, then I will say fair play to them, and congratulate them on doing so, but this season City will not be able to do so; so this is going to be a mute point, as the best that they can do is "a" treble, but not "the" treble.
Plus they cannot win the Champions League whilst being undefeated, so even if they do end up winning it, then it will still be below what we have achieved, no matter of their defeat was on dead rubber match or not.
So it is going to be next year at the earliest before they can trouble us in terms of trying to do something which we have not done before.
I hate to intervene in somebody else’s debate or ask a question on behalf of a city fan but what if they win the CL, PL, league cup and in doing so end up with more points and a better goal difference than we have ever had in the history of premier league football. Will the FA cup over the league cup still be the deciding factor?
I was laughing at the thought of some of the press praising City for losing to Wigan. Turns out some did 
.
Amazing if we lost to Wigan it'd be xxx million worth of a squad beaten by league 2 Wigan. No mention of it when it's City.
.Amazing if we lost to Wigan it'd be xxx million worth of a squad beaten by league 2 Wigan. No mention of it when it's City.
Shockingly enough, since the FA Cup is a much more prestigious trophy than the league cup, then yes it will be one of the deciding factors, well that and not being able to go undefeated in the Champions League, which is a huge feat in itself, especially against the quality of opposition and players that we faced in 99, certainly of a much higher calibre than Shakhtar!
Brondby of 99 are better than Shakhtar... my God...
Sorry nobody cares/cared about going undefeated in the CL. Please don't make up some weird feats.
Where did I say that?
Really? I’m afraid bringing up the undefeated in the champion league dispute when they clearly fielded a weakened team against shakhtar having already qualified while ignoring the question of whether they end up with more points and goals in the league sounds very much like hand picking what we did and they didn’t to suit the agenda. Of course the FA cup is more prestigious than the league cup, no doubt. And again the epic encounters with inter, Juve and Bayern in 99 made winning that CL even better. This is all hypothetical and personally I don’t think they will win the CL and even if they did I still think the manor of which we did will still have a much more romantic element to it with the class of 92 and that due to the fact the season went down to the final game we essentially had 3 cup finals and could have ended up with nothing but won it all. Of course I could be biased.
When you say nobody, do you mean just you, or have you spoken to everyone else on this matter and come to your findings that way?
Just trying to find out how you have come to such a conclusion.
I come to this conclussion by understanding how KO ties and the groupstage works.
I am not trying to ignore anything, the question was put to me, and I answered it as best as I could, if City manage to do well and win the league by a wider margin then we did in 2001, then that will of course by a huge success for them, and will deserve all the plaudits that would eventually come their way.
However in terms of the season as a while, looking at it from a wider perspective, then they simply cannot match our 99 success this season, no matter what they do.
But you said that nobody cares/cared, that does rather suggest that you have spoken to a large group of people to be some certain, rather than just saying that you personally do not care, which is what you mean I think.
Christ.
Yeah I'm sure if City win the CL the first person in the queue to praise them will be the poster on Redcafe who doesn't think they've had a great (merely 'good') season, that none of their present team would get into our previous starting XI's and that Aguero wouldn't even make the bench for our 1999 Champions League final team.
Feels really shitty having to defend City but some of this is absolutely ridiculous and just makes United fans look like pathetic 9 year old children. It's playground stuff. Any adult should acknowledge City have been ridiculous in the league this year and IF they win the Champions League - and dear God let's hope they don't - it won't matter a dime to anyone old enough to be up beyond 9 o'clock at night that they didn't do so undefeated throughout the whole competition.
Yeah I'm sure if City win the CL the first person in the queue to praise them will be the poster on Redcafe who doesn't think they've had a great (merely 'good') season, that none of their present team would get into our previous starting XI's and that Aguero wouldn't even make the bench for our 1999 Champions League final team.
Feels really shitty having to defend City but some of this is absolutely ridiculous and just makes United fans look like pathetic 9 year old children. It's playground stuff. Any adult should acknowledge City have been ridiculous in the league this year and IF they win the Champions League - and dear God let's hope they don't - it won't matter a dime to anyone old enough to be up beyond 9 o'clock at night that they didn't do so undefeated throughout the whole competition.
Last edited:
You seem to be under the misapprehension that this undefeated and equalling the achievement of a team in a different era in different circumstances is important.
City have not won a CL and maybe never will so impressing OPTA and the Twitterverse is somewhat down on the list of priorities of matchgoing Blues like myself.
Winning a mathematical pissing contest with United or any other teams fans is of very little interest so I'll bow out.
Having seen Barca last night I'm still convinced City are the favourites for the UCL. It'll take a bad couple of nights or an exceptionally good side to stop them over two legs
Let me ask you a question. What was your reaction after the '11 CL final?
"b-b-but Barcelona are nothing special .... we were undeafeated back in '99 and they lost to Arsenal!"
2001? You won the league with just 80 points and a 10 point gap to Arsenal in 2nd. You seem to be getting your years mixed up. As well as other things....
I think City's biggest problem is that their style of play is countered by the same style of play that some other top teams play. A high press against their defenders; a style that particularly Barcelona will employ. Barcelona didn't look great against Chelsea because the latter played on the break and kept things tight at the back. City wouldn't and couldn't do this.
City against Barcelona could easily replicate the Liverpool game where they were 4-1 down with 5 mins to go. Liverpool completely nullified them with Can, AoC, Wijnaldum and Firmino. Think of what Barcelona could do with the same tactics and Messi, Iniesta, Suarez and Busquets.
Well the year we won it by a record margin then, my error for getting that incorrect, I remember us winning the title at The Dell with a fair few games to spare.
I don't fundamentally disagree with much of what you have written - however, when you say Pep 'wouldn't even negotiate the idea of having someone who is not comfortable on the ball', this effectively proves my point, in my opinion. Pep would have HAD to negotiate that idea because we unfortunately cannot sell 8 and buy 8 in one window.
It is also my opinion that the squad Pep inherited was far better than the squad Jose inherited, although I will accept that the City squad was flawed in certain areas, namely the defence. This leads me to the belief that Pep's squad required less surgery but has actually had MORE surgery than Jose's Utd
I am not arguing that Pep isn't an excellent manager and I am not arguing that given time, he wouldn't have made United an unbelievable side. What I am saying is that in response to the question 'would I take Pep at United?' - my answer is of course I would, but not right now, not over Jose and not in the middle of a re-building job that in my opinion is going in the right direction.
At the same time, had we appointed Pep INSTEAD OF Jose, then won two and a half trophies in our first season under Pep before sitting in our current league position (and still in both major cups), my response to 'would I take Jose?' would be exactly the same! No! Not right now and not anytime soon
A City v Barca game would depend on who allows the other to have the ball imo, I think City's midfield has a lot more pace and power than Barca's and I feel they should be the dominant ones in terms of possession. Depends whether they were to show Barcelona too much respect or not
I think over two legs Bayern, Barcelona, PSG and Liverpool are 50/50 to knock out City. The reason why is these teams are in your face and won't sit back and defend.
Barcelona looked shite against the Chelsea ''bus'' last night, utterly clueless. Pep's City won't play against any of the above mentioned teams like that, thus leaving them open for attacks / counter attacks.
Barcelona looked shite against the Chelsea ''bus'' last night, utterly clueless. Pep's City won't play against any of the above mentioned teams like that, thus leaving them open for attacks / counter attacks.
If City had a plan b I'd fancy them a lot more to win the CL, but I just can't see it, I'd be surprised and throughly impressed if they pulled it off.
I think the game will be won by which defensive players cope the best under pressure, which will include Fernandinho and Busquets.
After seeing how the likes of Walker, Stones, Fernandinho and Otamendi dealt with the pressing of Liverpools midfield and attached, I can't genuinely see how they would cope with not only with the ability of Suarez/Messi (Liverpool missed a few chances that Messi would not), but also the extra mental pressure that inevitably comes with playing against arguably the best player ever.
I certainly think fans underestimate this mental element of the game. I think Real Madrid and Barcelona benefit hugely from the mental advantage of their opposition seeing Messi and Ronaldo lead their team out. Similar to how United benefited for years with Fergie looming on the touchline - his mere presence probably won us half a dozen points a season.
I expect the reaction would be to point our that when Inter won the year before they did so whilst keeping a clean sheet, so whereas the Barcelona performance was good it wasn't great as it was defensively blemished. Followed by a bizarre rant about how none of the Barcelona side would make it into our 1994 FA Cup winning starting XI and that Messi wouldn't make the bench for the 1991 Cup Winners Cup final team. Followed by ridiculous denials that such opinions are churlish.
What happens if City win the title by gaining 100 points, but ONLY win it by 16 points from united in 2nd place with 84 points? Are you saying United's 2001 achievement of winning it by 18 points is greater despite rivals gaining far less points across the board?
Baffled here at the levels some will go to discount any success that City may have by having to compare it to yourselves. ANY league win is an achievement and ANY trophy win is an achievement. The way it's done is irrelevant as competitive levels and other factors greatly differ season on season.
Last edited by a moderator:
Agree re. City’s squad being better, but do you really think United’s had as many as eight players who weren’t comfortable on the ball?
You implied United had to play no one worse than Shaktar. While United had it tough (really tough) in every other fixture, Brondby were probably the worst side in the competition.
As are Real, Chelsea and possibly Spurs and Juve. The CL is wide open this year. I'd have made PSG the faves but not by a large amount (plus I fancy Real to see them off now) and after that its anybody's trophy. Any of the last 8 this season could win it, there are no 2 or 3 clear standout sides as Barca, City and PSG's have all dropped a level from their 2017 form.
A potential last 8 of City, Liverpool, Bayern, Real, Barca/Chelsea, Juve/Spurs, United and Shakhtar/Roma. While Shakhtar (I think they'll beat Roma) would be huge underdogs they are a good side and have already beaten City and Napoli this campaign.
Agreed. The prospect of (going by favorites) Madrid, City, Liverpool, Bayern, Barcelona, Spurs, United and Shakhtar as the last 8 is mouth watering.
Who ever wins it this year will truly deserve it. No real easy path to the final. Plus like you said, not one team is jumping out as being better than the other.
bayern faves, or madrid. City arent winning it
Why do you care so much that people in general will never value the achievements of the City project in comparison to clubs who earn their success.
It is what it is. State owned, Oil money, the human rights abuses, financial doping etc are all part of the package but don't let that spoil your enjoyment.
Seems kind of strange that you're moaning about this on our forum.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hope something comes of it but I know full well nothing will. It's ridiculously backwards that the FA still refuse to reassess yellow card tackles.