Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
Drifter said:
Jeremy Corbyn backs permanent customs union after Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878
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Equally meaningless nonsense as per the Tory stance, just doesn't want to be seen as the breaker of the GFA.

There are only 3 choices:
1. Totally out, hard borders everywhere including Ireland.
2. In the (not "a") CU and SM so in the EU in all but name but no say
3. Cancel Brexit.
 
Abizzz said:
I simply don't buy that line that liberals have done something oh so terrible to the brexiteers that absolves the brexiteers from blame for their own action.

Also it is truly bizarre to blame "liberals" (in the sense of the word that I think that you are using it, i.e the way it is predominantly used in the US) for neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is a conservative fetish. Yes they got a lot of help from the center-left, but lets not forget who's child it is.
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The majority of people who voted Brexit on July are not ''brexiteers'', so with that noted we have to ask ourself why so many people voted for something we all think is completely stupid.

A couple of examples

1)Immigration -

It clearly played the biggest role, why do so many people think immigration is a problem(Even if the all the evidence shows it isn't). Well it could possible have to the with maybe the last essentially liberal coalition government(Cameron tories idealises Blair by the way) constantly using racism and xenophobia to bait people in voting for them - the immigration vans or maybe we could go back further to when New Labour were pushing racism and xenophobia - ''British Jobs for British People'' to quote Gordon Brown.

Let's not forget the BNP in 2009 European election got almost 1 million votes, the racist and xenophobic vote had been on the rise long before Brexit.

The infamous Nazi like sign that Leave used showing lines of middle eastern people with the words Breaking Point underneath, why would the British(Well English)public have such a racist view towards people from the middle east - the whole war on terror put forward by the liberals in the 2000's might have something to do with it

2)The economy -

While New Labour had slightly different continuation of the Thatcher era, the slight differences being actual quite important, it was in the end a continuation. When this model failed badly in 2008, the response by coalition government to this failure was to used ''austerity'' as a cover for class war.

So almost 30 odd years of a political and economic consensus that not all destroyed huge part of the UK and left people completely alienated but also try to destroy any idea that there could be a alternative to this consensus(When this alternative came in the form of the movement be hide Corbyn, the far right all the way to the centre left would attack it).

My argument is that the effects of neoliberalism have played a major reason to why Brexit happened and without adding this into the analysis you won't understand why people seemingly voted for something so stupid.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Oh call politicians idiots by all means, but not voters you dont agree with.
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Alright, can I just call those who believe those politicians gullible then? I actually agree that we just can't disqualify someone else's vote by calling it stupid in general, that wouldn't be very helpful to a working democracy... But in this particular case it isn't really a difference of opinion, as the other side simply makes things up to justify their opinion (and has done so for as long as I can remember).

Sweet Square said:
The majority of people who voted Brexit on July are not ''brexiteers'', so with that noted we have to ask ourself why so many people voted for something we all think is completely stupid.

A couple of examples

1)Immigration -

It clearly played the biggest role, why do so many people think immigration is a problem(Even if the all the evidence shows it isn't). Well it could possible have to the with maybe the last essentially liberal coalition government(Cameron tories idealises Blair by the way) constantly using racism and xenophobia to bait people in voting for them - the immigration vans or maybe we could go back further to when New Labour were pushing racism and xenophobia - ''British Jobs for British People'' to quote Gordon Brown.

Let's not forget the BNP in 2009 European election got almost 1 million votes, the racist and xenophobic vote had been on the rise long before Brexit.

The infamous Nazi like sign that Leave used showing lines of middle eastern people with the words Breaking Point underneath, why would the British(Well English)public have such a racist view towards people from the middle east - the whole war on terror put forward by the liberals in the 2000's might have something to do with it

2)The economy -

While New Labour had slightly different continuation of the Thatcher era, the slight differences being actual quite important, it was in the end a continuation. When this model failed badly in 2008, the response by coalition government to this failure was to used ''austerity'' as a cover for class war.

So almost 30 odd years of a political and economic consensus that not all destroyed huge part of the UK and left people completely alienated but also try to destroy any idea that there could be a alternative to this consensus(When this alternative came in the form of the movement be hide Corbyn, the far right all the way to the centre left would attack it).

My argument is that the effects of neoliberalism have played a major reason to why Brexit happened and without adding this into the analysis you won't understand why people seemingly voted for something so stupid.
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I actually agree with most of that. My quip with it is that those who had the wisdom to vote for change (brexit) to address this also still vote for those responsible for it in the first place (tories). I know which word you wouldn't use to describe that, but which one would you use?

(I would be more understanding if Labour were still dominated by Blairites, in the sense that you'd rather take the original (tories) than a bad copy of it dressed up with a smile, but that's not the case anymore).
 
When I were a lad, the Tories looked after the poor, there were no slums and all working class people lived in big houses and were highly paid.
There were very few foreigners and those people that benefited from encountering the occasional overseas visitor welcomed them with open arms.
Look what's happened to this country in the last 30 years, that's why I voted Brexit.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Neither, I feel that history is being rewritten by the under 30s/even under 40s.

Alternatively, it is not acceptable to call someone stupid when they are stupid but apparently it is quite acceptable to hope they die soon so their vote will be irrelevant.
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In what sense, out of interest?
 
Cheesy said:
In what sense, out of interest?
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A few examples.
There have always been deprived areas, poor people, neglected people, neglected areas, not just in the recent past but since time immemorial.
There has always been a resentment of foreigners from British people, it certainly was there when I was younger.
The Tories have never been a friend of the less well off.

To justify people voting for Brexit for any of these reasons makes no sense. It's been like this for donkeys years, long before the EU ever came about.

Another odd point is now Blair is out of favour with Labour voters it seems hardly anyone now admits to voting for him.
 
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Sweet Square said:
The majority of people who voted Brexit on July are not ''brexiteers'', so with that noted we have to ask ourself why so many people voted for something we all think is completely stupid.

A couple of examples

1)Immigration -

It clearly played the biggest role, why do so many people think immigration is a problem(Even if the all the evidence shows it isn't). Well it could possible have to the with maybe the last essentially liberal coalition government(Cameron tories idealises Blair by the way) constantly using racism and xenophobia to bait people in voting for them - the immigration vans or maybe we could go back further to when New Labour were pushing racism and xenophobia - ''British Jobs for British People'' to quote Gordon Brown.

Let's not forget the BNP in 2009 European election got almost 1 million votes, the racist and xenophobic vote had been on the rise long before Brexit.

The infamous Nazi like sign that Leave used showing lines of middle eastern people with the words Breaking Point underneath, why would the British(Well English)public have such a racist view towards people from the middle east - the whole war on terror put forward by the liberals in the 2000's might have something to do with it

2)The economy -

While New Labour had slightly different continuation of the Thatcher era, the slight differences being actual quite important, it was in the end a continuation. When this model failed badly in 2008, the response by coalition government to this failure was to used ''austerity'' as a cover for class war.

So almost 30 odd years of a political and economic consensus that not all destroyed huge part of the UK and left people completely alienated but also try to destroy any idea that there could be a alternative to this consensus(When this alternative came in the form of the movement be hide Corbyn, the far right all the way to the centre left would attack it).

My argument is that the effects of neoliberalism have played a major reason to why Brexit happened and without adding this into the analysis you won't understand why people seemingly voted for something so stupid.
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Immigration was clearly a factor. It is too simplistic say it was politicians stirring racism/xenophobia. People have seen their communities change rapidly in a short space of time, perhaps too short. Did politicians pander to it a bit? Probably. Did they do enough to address some of the concerns that might have been triggered by rapid social change? Arguably, not enough.

The economy nearly crashed because the banks ran out of money, partly because they were badly regulated or not regulated at all. Austerity was because the Labour govt was running a deficit during a late stage boom, which is the opposite of what they should have been doing, and austerity was also politically popular. The Tories surprisingly won a majority with Cameron at the helm, partly because of it. So why suddenly does it become an issue a few months later?

Surelly what Brexit is, if nothing else, is resurgent English nationalism unleashed by badly designed referendum, amplified by an out of date constitutional settlement in the UK, at a time when other nationalisms have been on the rise. The reasons behind that rise... who knows. The dominance of London. The rise of Scots separatism. Poor democratic representation in the EU. Various EU debt and monetary crises. Globalisation. Rapid technological change. It’s much, more complicated than ‘neoliberalism’, whatever that is.
 
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Abizzz said:
No, for the time being I won't. The politicians who campaigned for Brexit profited hugely in the run up to the vote by being given respect that their conduct didn't warrant. Be it Boris, Fox, Davis or Farage, they all spread falsehoods about the UK's relationship with it's partners, invented grievances towards Brussels and played the ill informed electorate like a fiddle by promising a vague, but fantastic future should their invented grievances be removed.

You can respect them, don't expect me to please. I think the respect they've previously received by people who should have known better contributed to this mess.
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Who the feck can respect those toss bags? The people you've listed lied to the general public and brushed it off as a laughing matter. cnuts of the highest order who should be prosecuted imo.
 
nickm said:
Immigration was clearly a factor. It is too simplistic say it was politicians stirring racism/xenophobia. People have seen their communities change rapidly in a short space of time, perhaps too short. Did politicians pander to it a bit? Probably. Did they do enough to address some of the concerns that might have been triggered by rapid social change? Arguably, not enough.
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The most anti immigrate communities are the ones with the least amount of immigration, yes their communities have been change but that has to with the changing nature of capitalism and the neoliberal policies that were put in place. Anti immigration sentiment is completely fear driven, the pandering isn't just a little bit, I've already mentioned the dystopian immigration vans but other such things as Blair doing a anti immigration speech at the white cliffs of dover, the media of course which both major parties(Until recently) has been firmly in the pocket of for the last 30 odd years.

nickm said:
The economy nearly crashed because the banks ran out of money, partly because they were badly regulated or not regulated at all. Austerity was because the Labour govt was running a deficit during a late stage boom, which is the opposite of what they should have been doing, and austerity was also politically popular. The Tories surprisingly won a majority with Cameron at the helm, partly because of it. So why suddenly does it become an issue a few months later?
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Austerity was literally never needed, it was nothing but a way to hide class war and to cut the social state. As for the tory election win 2015, well simply the tory won because there wasn't a alternative anti austerity party, so people stayed home or just simply voted tory because they didn't have a alternative answer. When this alternative came about in 2017 in form of the Left win Labour Party, a hell of a lot of people voted for it.


nickm said:
It’s much, more complicated than ‘neoliberalism’, whatever that is.
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Well yes that why I said it's played a major factor(It's of course not the only reason). Anyway if you have some spare time this stuff is worth checking out


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofb...he-limits-of-neoliberalism-by-william-davies/

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

It Was The Democrats' Embrace Of Neoliberalism That Won It For Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/rise-of-the-davos-class-sealed-americas-fate



 
nickm said:
The Tories surprisingly won a majority with Cameron at the helm, partly because of it. So why suddenly does it become an issue a few months later?
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Because people think/thought of austerity as the government no longer handing out free money to the feckless and undeserving poor. Until it affects them directly, with their waiting times for the GP rising, their local hospitals cutting certain services, their local libraries closing down or people they know losing their jobs. At which point they think "I didnt realise I was going to be affected by it."
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Alternatively, it is not acceptable to call someone stupid when they are stupid but apparently it is quite acceptable to hope they die soon so their vote will be irrelevant.
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Both are wrong and nothing will be solved by anyone dying. it's just a misguided opinion by people that lost their bet.
 
Adebesi said:
Because people think/thought of austerity as the government no longer handing out free money to the feckless and undeserving poor. Until it affects them directly, with their waiting times for the GP rising, their local hospitals cutting certain services, their local libraries closing down or people they know losing their jobs. At which point they think "I didnt realise I was going to be affected by it."
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Where did all this 'Saved' money go? After years of austerity in the Netherlands we have a ton of cash in the Government coffers, this will now be used to boost public services.
 
Adebesi said:
Because people think/thought of austerity as the government no longer handing out free money to the feckless and undeserving poor. Until it affects them directly, with their waiting times for the GP rising, their local hospitals cutting certain services, their local libraries closing down or people they know losing their jobs. At which point they think "I didnt realise I was going to be affected by it."
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I think that it is the crux of the problem, for some reason people have at the time the ambition to make decisions that goes beyond them without the ability to see beyond themselves. It's a bit like that women in the US that voted for illegal immigrants to be automatically deported without realizing that her husband was in that very case.
 
Stanley Road said:
Where did all this 'Saved' money go? After years of austerity in the Netherlands we have a ton of cash in the Government coffers, this will now be used to boost public services.
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Well the UK hasnt actually saved any money - as you presumably know, given you put saved in inverted commas. But even if it had, Im pretty sure the UK isnt planning to invest more saved money into public services.

Though of course at some point there will be a change of government - at this rate a Corbyn government. After a few years of that people might start to look back on Blair a bit more favourably.
 
JPRouve said:
I think that it is the crux of the problem, for some reason people have at the time the ambition to make decisions that goes beyond them without the ability to see beyond themselves. It's a bit like that women in the US that voted for illegal immigrants to be automatically deported without realizing that her husband was in that very case.
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Exactly. You see it time and time again in the US with Trump and here with austerity.
 
Adebesi said:
Because people think/thought of austerity as the government no longer handing out free money to the feckless and undeserving poor. Until it affects them directly, with their waiting times for the GP rising, their local hospitals cutting certain services, their local libraries closing down or people they know losing their jobs. At which point they think "I didnt realise I was going to be affected by it."
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Remember the Tory-voting mum who attacked tax credit cuts? She's now a Momentum boss
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/remember-tory-voting-mum-who-9645557
 
Stanley Road said:
Both are wrong and nothing will be solved by anyone dying. it's just a misguided opinion by people that lost their bet.
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The people who were challenging the establishment when I was a kid and wanted things to change because their lot was not as good as they wanted are now the people despised by today's younger generation. In another 30 or 40 years time today's younger generation will be despised by the new younger generation and the cycle continues as it always has and always will.
 
Sweet Square said:
The most anti immigrate communities are the ones with the least amount of immigration, yes their communities have been change but that has to with the changing nature of capitalism and the neoliberal policies that were put in place. Anti immigration sentiment is completely fear driven, the pandering isn't just a little bit, I've already mentioned the dystopian immigration vans but other such things as Blair doing a anti immigration speech at the white cliffs of dover, the media of course which both major parties(Until recently) has been firmly in the pocket of for the last 30 odd years.


Austerity was literally never needed, it was nothing but a way to hide class war and to cut the social state. As for the tory election win 2015, well simply the tory won because there wasn't a alternative anti austerity party, so people stayed home or just simply voted tory because they didn't have a alternative answer. When this alternative came about in 2017 in form of the Left win Labour Party, a hell of a lot of people voted for it.



Well yes that why I said it's played a major factor(It's of course not the only reason). Anyway if you have some spare time this stuff is worth checking out


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofb...he-limits-of-neoliberalism-by-william-davies/

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

It Was The Democrats' Embrace Of Neoliberalism That Won It For Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/rise-of-the-davos-class-sealed-americas-fate



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I know what neoliberalism is. I was being sarcastic, to be honest. It's one of those ideological cliches that obfuscates an argument, rather than reveals it. It's just another form of political management-speak.

We'll have to disagree on whether austerity was needed. I think a 7% deficit, if sustained, was an emergency that had to be confronted.
 
Adebesi said:
Because people think/thought of austerity as the government no longer handing out free money to the feckless and undeserving poor. Until it affects them directly, with their waiting times for the GP rising, their local hospitals cutting certain services, their local libraries closing down or people they know losing their jobs. At which point they think "I didnt realise I was going to be affected by it."
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Maybe, but such a swing in a few months? I don't buy it. Even now the Tories, the biggest shower of shite I've seen in 30 years, are polling over 41%. Labour have like a 2% lead, which is pathetic.

Brexit is at core, about English nationalism, not about austerity.
 
nickm said:
Maybe, but such a swing in a few months? I don't buy it. Even now the Tories, the biggest shower of shite I've seen in 30 years, are polling over 41%. Labour have like a 2% lead, which is pathetic.

Brexit is at core, about English nationalism, not about austerity.
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Very much this.
 
Worse, they are English Nats pretending to be British patriots while being prepared to risk various bits of Britain that are inconvenient to Brexit, like Northern Ireland or Scotland. Brits in name only, the lot of them.
 
So Boris has sent a letter to the PM stating it should not be the government's job to retain a 'no border' in Ireland. What an oaf.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The people who were challenging the establishment when I was a kid and wanted things to change because their lot was not as good as they wanted are now the people despised by today's younger generation. In another 30 or 40 years time today's younger generation will be despised by the new younger generation and the cycle continues as it always has and always will.
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In my day there were policemen beating innocent people under tory orders

Beheading of policemen in tottenham umder tory watch

Riots in London over poll tax, all under Tory watch. All they do is upset people, a fact that cannot be ignored.

But they're not idiots,. Just pure evil.
 
Stanley Road said:
In my day there were policemen beating innocent people under tory orders

Beheading of policemen in tottenham umder tory watch

Riots in London over poll tax, all under Tory watch. All they do is upset people, a fact that cannot be ignored.

But they're not idiots,. Just pure evil.
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As I've said before I don't rate any politician, and the current lot are the dregs, there are very few in politics for the benefit of the people from either side. One can list all the awful things from both sides throughout the years and until this tribal Tory/Labour changes, things will continue not to improve because all both sides are interested in is blaming the other for what has happened in the past instead of being forward thinking.

Over the past few years the blame has been put on the EU. In 5 or 10 years time it'll be something else but nothing will change while the power flows back between Labour and Tory with the same blame mentality.
 
Another Brexiter, the Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin, told BBC Newsnight on Tuesday: “We are not having a hard border in Northern Ireland under any circumstances.

“[But] if the EU wants a hard border, and they put stuff up at the border, that’s their problem. That’s not our problem.”
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...h-border-issue-being-used-to-frustrate-brexithttps://www.theguardian.com/politic...h-border-issue-being-used-to-frustrate-brexit

Jesus christ these people are immoral bastards. Not our problem if bombs start going off again in the north?
 
I assume other regulars here watched Liam Fox's speech yesterday? Credit where it's due, he seems to have taken notice that his words are being listened to outside of the brexit cult and cut back on the fabrications and lies. Still a bit odd to praise free trade for half an hour while trying to justify the end of it with the UK's largest trading partner... but an improvement. The only factual takeaway for me was that the UK has started preliminary trade talks with 20 something countries across the world, which is positive and surely the route to go if brexiteers have their wishes come true.

The man who only ever goes jogging when he sees reporters in front of his house seems a bit confused though:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...h-border-issue-being-used-to-frustrate-brexit

I'm sure he's also convinced that donuts are a scheme to frustrate his various sporting activities.
 
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