You do realise they have an average squad so all those things mentioned can realistically happen under any manager? There isn't much shame in getting beaten by Spurs/City when those teams clearly have the better squad (the scoreline may be poor though), but then comprehensively beating City, twice, is definitely worth praise.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You do realise they have an average squad so all those things mentioned can realistically happen under any manager? There isn't much shame in getting beaten by Spurs/City when those teams clearly have the better squad (the scoreline may be poor though), but then comprehensively beating City, twice, is definitely worth praise.
@JDoe
Who have they smashed? You say that but its literally just last night. Even in the league game they were hanging on for grim death.
The thing about Liverpool is the annoying fact that they are a game in hand away from fourth. Thats with a record setting goal machine such as Salah in the side.
Heres the thing. Klopp isn't overcoming a handicap, he isn't winning in spite of Karius etc. Those are his players and after 3 years in the job it should count against him in terms of squad building. An average keeper / defence, a functional midfield and an attack without any depth.
Thats what we would be looking at as Utd manager. And less trophies, don't forget about that.
Who have they smashed? You say that but its literally just last night. Even in the league game they were hanging on for grim death.
The thing about Liverpool is the annoying fact that they are a game in hand away from fourth. Thats with a record setting goal machine such as Salah in the side.
Heres the thing. Klopp isn't overcoming a handicap, he isn't winning in spite of Karius etc. Those are his players and after 3 years in the job it should count against him in terms of squad building. An average keeper / defence, a functional midfield and an attack without any depth.
Thats what we would be looking at as Utd manager. And less trophies, don't forget about that.
He doesn't sell his superstar players though. If Klopp was here, De Gea might already be gone. He sold big players at Dortmund, and was supposed to be making a step up to a bigger giant in Liverpool and has already sold Coutinho. It hasn't worked off as badly as most would have expected, but what happens when top clubs come inevitably knocking for the likes of Salah and Mane? his armor has already been breached in this regard, and it gives the likes of Barca/Madrid/Bayern/PSG initiative.
Does he have any influence in preventing them being sold?
That I can agree on, but to be honest it should have to come from the club itself too, Liverpool owners are never passing on those sums even if Klopp might be against it. It all comes down from the top, just look at Bayern and how they clapped down on any player power in that regard simply by taking a firm stance, which financially can be a strain.
I think you overestimate the role of coaches in Germany, they aren't managers english style and have limited influence toward which player is sold or not. They may get asked their opinion, and often, not even that is the case. Hence, it wasn't Klopp who "sold superstars" at BVB. Zorc/Watzke were.
Worth praise, but you don't win a trophy for beating City twice.
We're talking here about managers that thrive in underdog environments, and managers that are made for the biggest clubs in the game. If Klopp can't come into a club like Liverpool and mark his authority on transfers regarding his superstar players, well than I see an issue with that.
Well, City is pretty much the only team of any European pedigree that they have played under Klopp during his years, Dortmund under Tuchel was actually a great team too. Salah is a great player, but there is a big question mark if he is indeed world-class or if it is the system that makes him world-class. There were a ton of players that looked like world beaters under Klopp but faded away into irrelevance once they switched clubs when he was at Dortmund. I am sure that before this season, not a single person would have swapped an attack consisting of Lukaku, Martial, Rashford and eventually Sanchez with Firmino, Salah and Mané.
Of course Klopp is overcoming a handicap when compared to managers like Mou or Pep. There are definitively flaws in his squad building, but if you think that he'd be able to bring in top tier players in the same mood as Mou or Pep did without having to sell you're deluded, sorry to say that. "Trophies" don't say much for a coach of a second-tier team, first because luck plays a huge, huge factor in those (you lot just got deservedly eliminated by a weaker Sevilla side than the one they lost to in the EL final ffs), secondly "trophies" such as the loser's cup and FA cup should never be an indicator of success for any top 4 club, especially for one of the biggest in the world such as United. If Mou was to manage Sunderland and Moyes City for 5 years, I'd guarantee that Moyes would win more "trophies" simply because he'd have way more ressources to work with, simple as that. The difference between United and Liverpool isn't that vast, but still too big to use for comparison of their manager's work simply by "trophies" they won, especially when aforementioned trophies are all minor trophies.
@JDoe
I am sure that before this season, not a single person would have swapped an attack consisting of Lukaku, Martial, Rashford and eventually Sanchez with Firmino, Salah and Mané.
Oh buddy... you are new here!
Again with the spend. Liverpools starting 11 cost more than the Utd side who lost to Sevilla ( I think) Theres something like 50m difference between total spend and if you take Kieta into account it means Klopp has even spent more than Jose.
I am sure that before this season, not a single person would have swapped an attack consisting of Lukaku, Martial, Rashford and eventually Sanchez with Firmino, Salah and Mané.
Oh buddy... you are new here!
Again with the spend. Liverpools starting 11 cost more than the Utd side who lost to Sevilla ( I think) Theres something like 50m difference between total spend and if you take Kieta into account it means Klopp has even spent more than Jose.
I've never believed it's about playing like Liverpool, but rather acknowledging that Klopp hasn't let an inferiority complex impair his team when lining up against City. Too many other managers have done - making City's route to the title, a cakewalk.
I'm not adverse to Mourinho setting up in the manner that he does, but when you're attacking game is non-existent it stands to reason that you're going to get beaten in a game against a Guardiola team. There is a balance to be struck. We could beat City at the weekend if we defend in numbers, deny space, cut passing lanes and are efficient on the counter - the well-worn blueprint for a Mourinho victory against top teams. You don't have adopt Klopp's approach.
Klopp and Liverpool deserve credit for being brave enough to engage Guardiola. The fact that Liverpool have fallen short elsewhere is another discussion entirely.
I never thought LFC were in much trouble, tbh - although I accept that might have changed for the worse had the first one have gotten conceded & perceived rather differently if you support the team under pressure. I thought the defending was very good. MF got a bit tired 2nd half, but those 3 were brilliant first half for tackling & maintaining the shape.
It is but I think a manager is able to be a bigger force in a cup tie, whereas your squad limit what you can do in a league. When I saw those teamsheets last night I feared for Liverpool - that team, on paper, had kids, bargains, journeymen, and older players like Milner who would struggle to get a game at other clubs competing at this stage of the CL. And Liverpool’s bench was mid-table PL at best. To go at City like they did, and score 3 is credit to Klopp. They’re not going to compete in the league until they get invest more money, simple as that.
They are not as bad as you make them out to be. Their front three is quality and their FBs are also very good. Of course, Klopp gets the best out of them, but they are certainly a Top 4 PL team - even more so with Salah's exceptional form.
A fairly simple starting point for this current discussion is how Klopp uses his full backs compared to what Mourinho wants from Young & Valencia. Also Utd don't have any threat like Mane & Salah - to get goals from nothing, pose a direct threat from anywhere on the park & not be shackled by defensive responsibility - the other 9 can do the defending.
He does get his teams playing entertaining football.
As somebody who goes to games a lot, id enjoy seeing United under Klopp.
If I solely watched streams/tv, I think United winning under Joses 'lets not lose rather than try to win' approach would be more acceptable.
As somebody who goes to games a lot, id enjoy seeing United under Klopp.
If I solely watched streams/tv, I think United winning under Joses 'lets not lose rather than try to win' approach would be more acceptable.
Entertainment aside, it’s easier for fans to get behind teams/players that work as hard as Liverpool. When they’re constantly steaming into tackles that inevitably fires up the crowd, which gives the players an extra spring in their step.
When United fans watch our lot strolling around the pitch - tackling less frequently than almost any other team in the league - it’s not hard to see why our atmosphere is often very flat and Mourinho is wrong to put this all on the fans. Creating an atmosphere like we saw last night is about a lot more than playing entertaining attacking football. Putting a shift in would be a good place to start.
Oh no doubt. I dont disagree. I enjoy seeing a high press (and by that i mean as a team not this one man doing it, looking back and seeing the rest strolling or sitting back). When you press high, its the best place to win the ball and transition to get a goal. We saw that when we pressed arsenal at their ground and scored a couple of quick goals. Then... we just sat back.
I think some of the stuff should be minimum rather than cheered but its the way it is now.
I don’t care about a high press. High press, low press, whatever. I just know it’s far easier to get behind millionaire footballers when they actually put a shift in! Our players run less far and make less tackles than almost every other team in the league (literally bottom two for both these stats) so it’s not hard to see why the fans watching them often get lulled into silence. Conversely the Liverpool team work their balls off and whip their fans into a frenzy. I know which approach I’d prefer from the team I support.
This is good on last night's game.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2018/04...rpools-pressing-bring-three-goals-in-30-mins/
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2018/04...rpools-pressing-bring-three-goals-in-30-mins/
In fairness, most Liverpool fans (who attend games at least) will admit that their atmosphere is as poor as anyone else's 99% of the time. If Old Trafford couldn't have got up for a game like last nights one then I struggle to see how the fans can't be blamed.
I don't really disagree with your premise, but I think the reality doesn't quite bear it out.
you'd have been hard pressed to find many picking Liverpool over Chelsea going into this season.
Was thinking about this after the Sevilla game,when our fans were getting criticism.
It was the first European knock out home match in four years. Pretty sure that fans went with every intention of making a rocus.
But it's quite different when the game starts and you see your team just letting the other team pass the ball. It would deflate any crowd.
lol yeh well it helps when Pogba and Martial both started on the bench, never mind Lindelof and Mata too
Yup. It seemed as though the fans were up for it at kick off but got increasingly deflated as the game went on. Understandably so tbh.
@septic
I dont get your point? Their front 3 plus Ox cost them 135m. Utd cant play with 15 players on the pitch buddy.
I dont get your point? Their front 3 plus Ox cost them 135m. Utd cant play with 15 players on the pitch buddy.
Are you saying that Pogba jogging around the pitch like he's walking his dogs through a park on a Sunday morning is not necessarily thrilling the fans? no way.
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Old Trafford has been flat for years. Remember the prawn sandwich rant? Fergie's comments?
the point is that it's a useless skewed stat, given Pogba in particular always starts for us.
I was very pleased and, frankly, surprised to see how well TAA and Lovren did yesterday. I was dreading TAA against Sane.
A master class by Klopp as we pressed them brilliantly and contained them well in the second half.
Even if we got a much better result than I'd ever hoped for, I'm still nervous about about next week. A goal from City in the first half could make our players anxious.
A master class by Klopp as we pressed them brilliantly and contained them well in the second half.
Even if we got a much better result than I'd ever hoped for, I'm still nervous about about next week. A goal from City in the first half could make our players anxious.
If you watch football because you enjoy seeing players "put a shift in", I can understand that you are disappointed and I also respect that as I myself enjoy seeing players giving everything all the time. However I am not so sure that it is about the willingness to work hard, but more about tactics and different ways of playing the game. Liverpool has a strategy which involves aggressive press whereas Barcelona successfully has relied on possession instead of chasing. In most leagues, you will not find the top 5 teams of the league in the top 5 positions of distance covered. Most, but not all, top teams are instead in the top of the possession list and it is often teams with big possessions that score a goal or two in the last 10 minutes when the chasing team has burned out.
This post needs to be bolded so those with red tinted glasses can see the truth. Coaching wise, Klopp has arguably done a far better job than Jose.
And arguably he hasn't as well.
They’ve been saying the same thing about Anfield too though. But the brand of football they’re playing now (and did for a season under Rodgers tbf) is a big help in reversing that trend. I don’t think there’s any quick fix to declining atmosphere at OT but what we’ve produced on the pitch for large parts of this season definitely isn’t helping.
Liverpool players who would start for United: VVD, both full backs, Emre Can, Mane, Salah, Wijnaldum and possibly Firmino.
United players who would start for Liverpool: DDG, Matic, Pogba and Rashford.
My fairly neutral opinion is that Liverpool has a slightly better starting line-up. They have decent and promising full backs, something that United doesn't. Their midfield is not up to the talent that United has at their disposal but with the arrival of Keita they will be a very tenacious and also skilled core of players. In attack they are just better right now.
United players who would start for Liverpool: DDG, Matic, Pogba and Rashford.
My fairly neutral opinion is that Liverpool has a slightly better starting line-up. They have decent and promising full backs, something that United doesn't. Their midfield is not up to the talent that United has at their disposal but with the arrival of Keita they will be a very tenacious and also skilled core of players. In attack they are just better right now.
You are taking the piss with that name.
Off all the attackers to pick that would start for Liverpool, Rashford was picked. That list is all kinds of fecked up.
Can is very athletic and mobile and not bad technically. Who united have like him? Wijnaldum is a smart tidy player I admire. Again, he covers the whole pitch, has good technique and scores goals. It seems he's underrated in England for some reason.
Net spend matters. According to Transfermarkt, over the last two seasons, you have a net spend of about 260m gbp, City 360 and ours is roughly 6. Of course that makes Klopps result last night all the more impressive. And why would you take Keita into account?
That’s why I said arguably. He’s placed them almost on par with us in the league and further in Europe with a weaker squad. His system gets the best out of his players. Jose hasn’t maximised our potential.