Aye - even outside the EU we're going to have a lot of continental obligations to our neighbours on certain issues that involve us making certain sacrifices (whether economic or otherwise) and if we choose not to do that then we'll have to suffer the consequences of becoming increasingly isolated from countries with whom we trade heavily.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Aye - even outside the EU we're going to have a lot of continental obligations to our neighbours on certain issues that involve us making certain sacrifices (whether economic or otherwise) and if we choose not to do that then we'll have to suffer the consequences of becoming increasingly isolated from countries with whom we trade heavily.
It was just the whole “better off but poorer” thing that didn’t make sense to me. It’s not your idea that has me confused, it was the Brexiteer who didn’t mind his grandkids being worse off if that meant Brexit goes ahead.
I know you think it’s materialistic to put economic welfare as the priority but I honestly can’t think of any other way to judge whether or not Brexit has been a good thing? Is it about a redistribution of wealth? His grandkids are poorer but there are a whole bunch of other people’s grandkids better off as a result? That kind of makes sense but, again, it’s hard to see how Brexit could be a means to this end.
Or is there something else more intangible as an upside here? That’s an interesting idea but I’ve no idea what this upside looks like. Hence my questions.
I suppose part of this depends on the size of any effect on economic welfare. To me a couple of percent off GDP is quite doable, 2008 had a bigger impact than that, but 20% would change everything. That possibility swung my decision, and I daresay many more.
Upside? As JP said, where, who by, and how laws are made, and to add to that the level of immigration. I'm sure you'd find more if you read the old referendum thread but it's nearly as bad as this one, so I wouldn't recommend it.
I imagine your average Brexit supporter would cite greater control of immigration. It was the issue which won the referendum. You may legitimately argue what tangible benefits that brings to his or her life but it obviously is important to them to feel more cut off both from EU27 immigration and (probably more importantly) potential future Muslim immigration from the southern shore of the Med. After all, Farage didn’t choose a poster full of Poles for “Breaking Point”.
To put it another way, I don’t think you can understand the appeal of Brexit in materialistic, richer vs poorer terms. That’s why Osbourne’s campaign failed (and why I complacently thought Remain would win fairly comfortably).
But most of the given concerns with regards to immigration were economic - lost jobs, strain on services, wage pressure.
There was undoubtedly xenophobia in amongst that, but those were the main given reasons.
The two issues were definitely connected in people’s minds but I would argue it was more emotive than rational - for example, the UK had (and still has) very low unemployment). Plus the places with most immigration (the cities) were generally pro-Remain. I view it as misdirected anger at post-2008 stagnant/falling living conditions (combined in a toxic cocktail with baby boomers who grew up amid post-WWII stories of British exceptionalism and genuine xenophobes, and all led and manipulated by a very small but hugely influential ultra-Thatcherite clique).
Rees-Mogg threatening May:
"I’m sure that the prime minister knows her history, and I’m sure that she knows how Lord Peel got the repeal of the corn laws through"
Jesus fecking Christ that man is so divorced from the modern world its beyond parody. Yes Jacob, I'm sure the PM was sitting worrying about the events of 1846 while she considered her Brexit strategy. You massive twat.
"I’m sure that the prime minister knows her history, and I’m sure that she knows how Lord Peel got the repeal of the corn laws through"
Jesus fecking Christ that man is so divorced from the modern world its beyond parody. Yes Jacob, I'm sure the PM was sitting worrying about the events of 1846 while she considered her Brexit strategy. You massive twat.
Emily Thornberry has let slip that Labour will "probably" vote for Theresa May's Brexit when the final deal is presented to Parliament.
To recap: A party who's leader has been anti-EU for 30+ years, who whipped MPs to support the government in the commons on hard Brexit, who sacks MPs for opposing a hard Brexit even if they're merely echoing official party policy, and now a senior figure in that party has said they'll probably vote for the Tory Brexit, despite nobody knowing what the hell the deal will even be.
Than feck we've had such strong opposition from Labour on this issue, eh? Else the Tories would really be in trouble.
To recap: A party who's leader has been anti-EU for 30+ years, who whipped MPs to support the government in the commons on hard Brexit, who sacks MPs for opposing a hard Brexit even if they're merely echoing official party policy, and now a senior figure in that party has said they'll probably vote for the Tory Brexit, despite nobody knowing what the hell the deal will even be.
Than feck we've had such strong opposition from Labour on this issue, eh? Else the Tories would really be in trouble.
You've gone beyond ignorance to plain wilful stupidity on this at this point.
I notice you didn't bother pointing out Thornberry's mention of the 6 Brexit tests either, which is strange. You seem to suffer from the same selective vision that has plagued Wenger for all these years.
Supported govt in votes on commons.
Expels members from cabinet who espouse the official party line on Brexit e.g there should be a 'final say' vote'
Senior member of cabinet suggesting the party will vote for the Brexit deal regardless of what it is.
And where are we? Let's pretend that isn't absolutely fecking awful because it might paint Corbyn in a bad light if we do, so that can never be allowed to happen. Instead let's pretend his party has been doing everything he can to stop the Tory Brexit, despite senior allies now letting slip they have every intention to vote for it.
Let's be honest the Corbyn left have no interest in stopping a hard Brexit. They've no real interest in anything much other than sitting around agreeing how awful they each think Tony Blair was.
Expels members from cabinet who espouse the official party line on Brexit e.g there should be a 'final say' vote'
Senior member of cabinet suggesting the party will vote for the Brexit deal regardless of what it is.
And where are we? Let's pretend that isn't absolutely fecking awful because it might paint Corbyn in a bad light if we do, so that can never be allowed to happen. Instead let's pretend his party has been doing everything he can to stop the Tory Brexit, despite senior allies now letting slip they have every intention to vote for it.
Let's be honest the Corbyn left have no interest in stopping a hard Brexit. They've no real interest in anything much other than sitting around agreeing how awful they each think Tony Blair was.
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Good to see you've branched out into another blatant lie, you're getting good at those.
The Bat signal you get whenever someone posts an opinion of Corbyn that isn't fawning must be strong tonight. Guess it has to be given how light it still is outside due to daylight savings.
Your opinion of Corbyn? You've stated two flat out, demonstrable, lies as if they were fact.
The 'cult' stuff you've been chucking around seems to be a bigger case of projection than an IMAX multiplex.
Its the hope that kills you with Corbyn.
He's actually been fairly consistent. Is, was and always will be a Brexiteer. What kills is the fact we've a Brexiteer leading the official 'opposition' at a time when the government seem hell bent on pushing a Rees-Mogg wet dream style Brexit on us.
There hasn't been a single shred of evidence either in his years as an MP before the referendum or his actions post it that show he has ever had any interest in keeping us in the EU aside from half-arsed lip service he paid out of obligation to the Remain side when he 'campaigned' for them during the referendum itself. Let's not forget the calls to immediately trigger Article 50 the day after the vote.
And of course the white noise of his fanatics who get terribly upset if anyone notices. For Labour there's a danger that this will be viewed similarly in terms of betrayal as the Lib Dem promise on tuition fees. Young people voted overwhelmingly against Brexit and their only hope is placed in a man who has never had any desire to prevent it. Even top Corbyn cheerleaders within the party like George Aylett, in many ways the poster boy of the 'new' Labour party, support an 'at all costs' Brexit as is evident by looking at his Twitter feed.
That explains why the Lib Dems are polling at 40% everytime one is conducted.
@Oscie
Curious which party you voted for in the last 2 elections? Not going to look back thru old posts to find out.
Curious which party you voted for in the last 2 elections? Not going to look back thru old posts to find out.
Labour 2005 - 2015
Lib dems 2017
Temporary switch primarily due to Corbyn's pro-Brexit leanings. Thought, and still think, Brexit is the most important issue we face and Corbyn and co pretending we are obliged to endorse whatever Brexit the Tories can deliver is something I wont support
I can respect that stance. I’m pro-Corbyn on the vast majority of issues but it’s unfortunate that he’s obviously pro-leave.
My stance on it though is that Labour wouldn’t stand a chance against the Tories if they were pro-remain. The issue as you say is too important and it would force a lot of Labour voters to stay at home or even vote Tories just to make sure Brexit happens.
If Brexit is going to be stopped (sadly, it’s not) it will have to happen the same way under either government and that’s incredibly damaging terms going to a second referendum or something like a criminal investigation into Cambridge Analyitca’s involvement.
I’m firmly of the belief though that we will be voting to rejoin the EU within the next two decades. The baby boomers will have passed over to generation x and millennials who, along with the generation below be unhappy with their situation and looking to drastic change and feeling sentimental about how the EU used to protect our rights and the planet we live on.
Fair enuff
If only all those whinging right now had voted lib dems into govt there wouldn't be all this division. They are the people you need to direct your annoyance at, they have given you the govt and opposition you dislike.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/chris-wylie-testify-uk-facebook-cambridge-analytica-1.4594668
Will of the people y'all.
Which leaves us with a dishonest Labour party and a dishonest Labour leader. No one knows whether the party is for Brexit or against it, they're afraid to say. We do know what the leader wants but he won't admit it. All because it's going to be better for Labour at the next election, when the electorate are presumably expected to have forgotten all about it. Good luck with that Jeremy.
True.
I'm almost impressed by that last answer. Takes skill to find an answer to that question that's technically true but isn't "this is going to be a disaster, everyone abandon ship". It's going to be very different and we'll have exciting opportunities to bend over when negotiating with the US, China etc.
As long as nobody blames Brexiters for this mess eh Stan?
Solid effort
Woah.
Woah.
That "not" could probably do with being in flashing, incandescent neon...
Just so much wrong with the thought processes behind that comment.Kathyrn Leavesley.........
Short thread about the logistics of the Scandinavian borders, the TLDR is that it's impossible for Britain.
I think we will both be voting to Rejoin, for the reasons you give, and holding Iraq style enquiries into how we allowed ourselves to be so mislead into making such a catastrophic decision. As with Iraq, the political leadership of both parties won’t be able to escape their complicity in these events, whatever current tactical advantage labour think they hold.
My god people are angry enough over Iraq and the damage there was far away. Wait til you see the rage when all this crap really hits home.
Things like this make me abandon all hope. Even the strong remainers saying 'well we've voted now, so we just have to get on with it'.
"Well, I've been slapped in the face so now I'll just have to keep slapping myself in the face. Just have to get on with it."