Well I didn't vote, will be voting for Labour in the next general and will be one of those expected to hand out the freebies.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
- Thread starter unchanged_lineup
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well I didn't vote, will be voting for Labour in the next general and will be one of those expected to hand out the freebies.
Unfair. Tories turn out because they vote for self interest.
I'm sure many would say for their family rather than just themselves, but either way they don't get that people are interconnected and depend on each other, no single family lives in splendid isolation, immune to the world around it.
This is where Thatcher was so seductive, claiming that there was no such thing as society, just a collection of individuals, and greed is good for everyone. Even the tory-minded saw through that one in the end.
The people I know who voted Leave still believe in leave as strongly as they ever did. I live in the Midlands where the UKIP vote has gone to the Hard Brexit Tories.
Would the result still go the same if it was done now? Probably not but it wouldn't be a landslide.
OK that is true. My point was really that Tories dont vote for punishing the poor and disabled. That is just a byproduct. They vote for lower taxes for themselves (also for law and order and kicking out the foreigners of course). Im sure the post I was replying to was tongue in cheek, and therefore my reply superfluous, but in the interest of serious discussion I think it is worth noting that Tories arent evil (voting against the poor) but selfish (voting for themselves).
I dont say selfish to be emotive - I mean it in the sense in which it underpins our entire system: capitalism is predicted on the idea that people always, or principally, act out of self interest. It is the special sauce that explains the long term success of the Tory party.
I agree with most of that. Socialism, whilst seemingly a fairer world view fundamentally underestimates human nature.
Do you really believe socialism would stand even the remotest chance in a democracy if it wasn't for people voting out of self interest? If you do, personally I'd say you are massively underestimating human nature.
I've a real problem with the whole 'people who don't vote like I do, do so for reasons that aren't as wholesome as mine' thing to be honest. It kind of sums up the intellectual deficit on the left in general that's so tremendously problematic.
Among some on the left, I should say. But there really does seem to be a genuinely struggle to accept that people have honest disagreements and sincerely different outlooks on things. For many on the 'new' hard left it seems to be: you're either a good person and agree with me and votes the same way or you're a wanker who votes out of self-interest. As if there's a feeling that people are genuinely voting for other people out of some genuine desire to be evil.
It's probably why much of the debate with the Corbyn-wing of the party rarely progresses beyond accusations that someone who takes a different view is a 'Tory who should feck off'
Among some on the left, I should say. But there really does seem to be a genuinely struggle to accept that people have honest disagreements and sincerely different outlooks on things. For many on the 'new' hard left it seems to be: you're either a good person and agree with me and votes the same way or you're a wanker who votes out of self-interest. As if there's a feeling that people are genuinely voting for other people out of some genuine desire to be evil.
It's probably why much of the debate with the Corbyn-wing of the party rarely progresses beyond accusations that someone who takes a different view is a 'Tory who should feck off'
Last edited:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his labour.
Conservatism or socialism the end product is the same, if you dont work you dont eat, the key difference with the two however, is that a conservative government wont throw you in prison for being a social parasite (article 209 of the Russian soviet federal socialst republic criminal code) for 2 years to starve, you get to do it in your own home for the most part.
I dont understand why people have this idea that socialism is about shoeveling money at the sick those who cant work, its almost the complete antithesis of this, if you dont contribute to the collective you dont get any benefits of the collective.
Its heartless and uncaring and can only work if followed absolutely. Which is why the half hearted attempts a hard left labour government will make are so dangerous.
Last edited:
You are treating politics like sport, where there is no “right” answer about which team to support. But if politics has any true value there are right and wrong answers. Maybe the left is wrong, but politics is fundamentally a moral endeavour so it’s not surprising arguments often end with moral accusations.
And one only needs the most cursory understanding of history to realise that believing one’s actions to be morally right does not mean that they are.
I dont get why people keep disagreeing with you so aggressively, when all you do is call left wingers idiots. Who do they think they are belittling you for your opinions?
As does pure unadulterated capitalism, which is the type of capitalism rife in western societies today.
I’m a bit late to this argument, but excellent posts.
One of the problems of political discourse today is that people want to argue the toss over things that used to be self-evident. Point out that historically Labour's local election results were underwhelming and that it really isn't good enough given the crises this government lurches between each week, and some will argue the toss. Even the facts aren't facts any more. And that causes a lot of the frustration and disaffection. Whether we're pretending that we can magic up a solution to the Irish border issue suddenly or pretending that winning an election in 2005 was a worse result to losing it in 2017 because the vote share was higher, there isn't even a consensus these days over things that are evidently true or false.
From This Week, 'are we past peak-Corbyn?' My answer would be yes, since Corbynites have created their own ceiling by hating 'centrists' even more than Tories.
It's quite difficult to assess where we are with Corbyn. On the one hand, considering the feck-ups from the Tories I think it's fair to say people who support him should be disappointed that he hasn't managed to build substantially on last year's election and start mounting consistent and noticeable polling victories over the Tories.
But at the same time, it feels like people desperate to cast him off as finished are the very same people who did so in 2016 and early 2017, and who loudly proclaimed that May would walk to an easy majority after she called her election. Corbyn, for all his many faults, is a very strong campaigner, and tends to do best when he's got something definite to work towards. Feels silly and premature to write him off after what we saw last year. Although a lot of the people writing him off have been eager to do so since day one anyway.
But at the same time, it feels like people desperate to cast him off as finished are the very same people who did so in 2016 and early 2017, and who loudly proclaimed that May would walk to an easy majority after she called her election. Corbyn, for all his many faults, is a very strong campaigner, and tends to do best when he's got something definite to work towards. Feels silly and premature to write him off after what we saw last year. Although a lot of the people writing him off have been eager to do so since day one anyway.
That's a fair point, and to add to it I'd say he can be a much stronger campaigner than expected. Where he's lacking though is 'something definite to work towards', because the biggest issue of the day is Brexit, and on that his leadership is non-existent.
I'd say it's about the same position as the last GE.
Agreed.
Poor misunderstood centrists. How did their favourite Tory MPs vote on the Windrush and Leveson proposals by the way?
Yeah, I do think that's by far his weakest point. I've largely been understanding of his stance so far because either way he'll alienate significant elements of the party, but at some point you expect a serious, credible politician to be able to argue in favour of the most sensible politician.
Poor misunderstood extremists, always wanting everything their way. Always shouting down anyone who disagrees.
Brexit will do to its advocates and facilitators, what Iraq did to its own. Corbyn won't escape the judgement of history by trying to be ambivalent about it.
I'm sure there's a connection to my post somewhere but it's not obvious, sorry.
The centrists spend every waking moment, that they're not talking down the Labour leadership, 'bigging up' their list of moderate Tories, usually headed by Anna Soubry. How did these people, that they clearly hold more respect for than those supposedly in their party, vote on those two issues?
Will their votes on these issues be different than all the previous ones that these centrists have managed to gloss over, when they appear on every medium that will have them to talk about how great those Tories are?
Remember though, it's people like Laura Pidcock that are the real problem. If we all join hands with these 'moderate Tories' utopia is just around the corner.
This is slightly bizarre. I started off by saying Corbyn has peaked electorally, as Corbynites have created their own ceiling by hating centrists more than the Tories, and you respond by trying to paint non-Corbyn centrists as huge Tory-lovers, nicely proving the point I made in the first place.
I'm one of those nutters who have a dislike for people who spent months calling people like me entryist trots and tried to deny me the right to vote for the leadership candidate I wanted, whilst simultaneously brown nosing members of the opposition. Wishy washy leftie cult member, me. I'm playing by the rules set up by the centrists.
Oh and how dare I label centrists Tory loving. I'd have to have a series of examples of the most vocal anti-Corbyn Labour MPs rushing to TV studios and newspaper columns to talk about how great their Tory counterparts are, just after people had faced party discipline for speaking favourably of other policies from other parties. Or one that is massively against calling for members of their own party to be deselected...unless they're saying it.
Last edited:
Yes, Corbynites hate centrists, I get it. How they intend to gain power without the votes of centrists, and some Tories too of course, is beyond me. Which is why I posted 'Corbynites have created their own ceiling' in the first place, because it looks like they have.
Whereas of course, calling people entryists trots and trying to block them from voting or calling for a fellow Labour MP (with one of the biggest majorities in the country) to be sacked was a compliment. I believe those creepy pick up artists call it negging.
Now suddenly the boot is on the other foot and the rules change. The people who had the BBC help orchestrate a mass resignation from the shadow cabinet are all about party unity.
Have they though? The next election will be after between 9-12 years of Tory rule, if I've got my numbers right. There is not, at present, a promising option for the Conservative Party leadership. I'm very skeptical of the idea that people will more influenced by the harder elements of the left being rude to them than the rest.
Can't wait till Corbyn gets in and throws some of you lot in the Gulag. You won't be spouting centrist drivel in there I can tell you.
Even as someone who's been fairly critical of aspects of Corbyn's leadership and some of his tactical moves, I feel like it's wrong to suggest he's attempted to alienate the centrists from the moment he stepped into office or that he hasn't thrown them any bones. Shadow Home and Foreign Secretary were given to Burnham and Benn respectively. He's largely backed down on his pro-Republican and anti-nuclear stances.
Certain elements of the party could perhaps rein it in a bit but I do understand there frustration. Corbyn tends to be undermined by the rest of his party at the slightest whim of a problem, when you'd typically expect the opposition to be building on what they already have.
Certain elements of the party could perhaps rein it in a bit but I do understand there frustration. Corbyn tends to be undermined by the rest of his party at the slightest whim of a problem, when you'd typically expect the opposition to be building on what they already have.
The Gulag...
... I thought he was going to send us up to the shipyards and down to the mines so we could learn the error of our bourgeois ways (after he had reopened and nationalized them by taxing all our money off us)We have various plans for your sort. No decision has been taken yet.The Gulag...
All fully costed, no doubt.
something like this though I assume?
That said he will probably nationalise the trains first so there no chance he will be able to ship us all off for "re-eduaction" as the drivers will all be on strike