Westminster Politics

NinjaFletch said:
I don't think it's really that difficult to diagnose.

Whether the electorate like the Conservatives or not, and some will do as Brexit fanatics, it appears that huge chunks of the population are simply unconvinced that Labour are a safe pair of hands with the economy, and that Labour incompetence will do more harm than Tory malice.

People will have reached those conclusions for a whole variety of reasons – some fair and some unfair – but there's a genuine distrust of Corbyn's Labour party, and whilst they're currently supporting the most ruinous Tory policy of them all I can't blame them.

Corbyn has been polling third behind 'Don't Know' in a two horse race of 'who will make the best PM?' since October (and has only been ahead of May once since she became PM), given how spectacularly bad a job almost everyone agrees she's doing (I seriously am yet to speak to a single Conservative voter that rates her, although admittedly I do not know many), that's a pretty damning indictment of the publics perception of Corbyn's ability to successfully lead.
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So they decide their vote on their perception of the party leader's ability to lead... Which pretty much is my point, why is that more important than NHS cuts etc. ? I can understand it being one relevant factor in ones choice, but why the dominating one?

And aside from all that May has proven herself to be a terrible leader while Corbyn is just suspected to be terrible...
 
He may be 200 years old but he's not wrong

“The Tories in England long imagined that they were enthusiastic about monarchy, the church, and the beauties of the old English Constitution, until the day of danger wrung from them the confession that they are enthusiastic only about ground rent.” — Karl Marx, 1852
 
Abizzz said:
So they decide their vote on their perception of the party leader's ability to lead... Which pretty much is my point, why is that more important than NHS cuts etc. ? I can understand it being one relevant factor in ones choice, but why the dominating one?

And aside from all that May has proven herself to be a terrible leader while Corbyn is just suspected to be terrible...
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May is a proven terrible leader, but my guess is that people see her as more moderate than Corbyn. Might sound ridiculous but short of 'black magic', we're running out of plausible reasons why we are where we are. Arguably Corbyn is a more polarising figure and within the party there has been huge hostility towards anyone who isn't fully on-board, which alienates a lot of the electorate watching it from afar. And lot has to do with the ridiculous idea that you can be leader of a political party and not care about PR and media management. The cognitive dissonance that exists between insisting that you can ignore the right wing media and then complain that you're not doing well because of the right wing media, is another absurdity that nobody seems interested in addressing either.

He also disappears for days on end it seems. Leaders of the opposition, especially at a time when government is in crisis, are usually on TV, radio and the press 24/7. Corbyn's pretty much a part-time leader.
 
Abizzz said:
So they decide their vote on their perception of the party leader's ability to lead... Which pretty much is my point, why is that more important than NHS cuts etc. ? I can understand it being one relevant factor in ones choice, but why the dominating one?

And aside from all that May has proven herself to be a terrible leader while Corbyn is just suspected to be terrible...
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Almost everyone agrees the Conservatives have been bad for the NHS, but – as I said – there's a fear that Labour will manage to stuff it up even more by being even more incompetent. Whether that's an irrational fear or not, after all this Conservative party are fantastically incompetent too, is besides the point almost, because Corbyn's failure to persuade people that he could do better than this is itself an indictment on him, his leadership, and the Labour party.

I agree with every possible negative adjective you could use to describe this manifestation of the Conservative party and real fail to see how Labour could do worse, but I'm also sympathetic to those of the viewpoint that feel that they could, and the fact that it's not clear cut between them leads people to conclude that they might be better off with the devil they know.

Whether Labour would or would not actually be better than the Conservatives if they took power is more or less besides the point right now, what's important is convincing the electorate that they could be, and they're clearly (and I include 2017 as well in this) failing to make that case.

Oscie said:
I agree with this. The reaction to the last election was disappointing. Yes the result wasn't as bad as feared, but Labour still lost, the Tories still won. But there was no introspection, no looking inwards. Regardless of how much worse it was predicted to be I'll never be comfortable with the idea that a Tory can walk into Number 10 and Labour's (or specifically, the Labour leader's) supporters being almost in celebratory mode. There is a mistrust of Corbyn like you say but we're dealing with a party now that largely doesn't seem to care if it wins elections so it's not surprising they don't much seem to care about why Corbyn doesn't connect with the electorate.
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I think it was a celebratory moment, given how far back Labour were, given how the election was framed, and given how much it weakened May's position.

The problem was that, rather than building on it, Labour appear to have slipped back, despite the fact that the realities of Brexit are starting to hit home, and despite the fact that the Conservatives are tearing themselves apart.

You can, and I suspect some will, excuse that by pointing towards the usual external factors that go against Corbyn, but it can not be a good thing that in order for Labour to win an election under him they'd need a similar hail mary of an election result, and nor is it a good thing that all the while Labour are failing to provide basic opposition to the biggest fecking issue facing this country.
 
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Imagine supporting a party with Give as popular choice? Brexit has broken this country.
 
Hammond doing so poorly is interesting. Seems to be seen as one of the few sensible heads by the general public but within the party he's got feck all hope of being the next leader.
 
The Alternative Popularity League.
 



It must be hard for Labour to do anything against a government so utterly united and together on the issue of Brexit on which there exists a single, credible and widely lauded negotiation strategy, whilst also making such a success of public services, and receiving unanimous priase for its treatment of the Windrush generation. Have to feel sorry for Corbyn, if only the government would put a foot wrong then he could capitalise.
 
Oscie said:
It must be hard for Labour to do anything against a government so utterly united and together on the issue of Brexit on which there exists a single, credible and widely lauded negotiation strategy, whilst also making such a success of public services, and receiving unanimous priase for its treatment of the Windrush generation. Have to feel sorry for Corbyn, if only the government would put a foot wrong then he could capitalise.
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And the Liberals are shite as well. It's hard to believe really, there's a serious discussion going on about whether May is the worst PM in living memory, which she probably is, and she's still ahead.

People would have blamed the press at one time, but that has nowhere near the influence it had, and is pretty much against her anyway. Times are changing I suppose, just nobody knows quite how.
 
711 said:
And the Liberals are shite as well. It's hard to believe really, there's a serious discussion going on about whether May is the worst PM in living memory, which she probably is, and she's still ahead.

People would have blamed the press at one time, but that has nowhere near the influence it had, and is pretty much against her anyway. Times are changing I suppose, just nobody knows quite how.
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I'd give Cameron the nod for 'worst', at least post-war, but May comes close. It's what happens when the main opposition resort to merely talking amongst themselves. The Labour party is effectively a hermit, locking itself up in a tower with everyone sat around listening to Owen Jones speeches that are interspersed with musical interludes from Billy Bragg. Anyone who knocks on the door, curious as to why it isn't engaging with the wider world is attacked.

From the very announcement of his candidacy for leadership, Corbynism was never about achieving a Labour government, it was about proving a point within the Labour party and 'winning back' the Labour movement. It's why Corbyn and followers are, to borrow a phrase from Mandelson, intensely relaxed about opposition. It's why the priority is never to take on the Tories on Brexit, but it is attacking comedians like Frankie Boyle and Tracy Ullman who satirise Dear Leader. Oh and David Baddiel. Not that he has but he's Jewish so, you know.
 
Oscie said:
I'd give Cameron the nod for 'worst', at least post-war, but May comes close. It's what happens when the main opposition resort to merely talking amongst themselves. The Labour party is effectively a hermit, locking itself up in a tower with everyone sat around listening to Owen Jones speeches that are interspersed with musical interludes from Billy Bragg. Anyone who knows on the door, curious as to why it isn't engaging with the wider world is attacked.
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This is going too far, don't you dare criticise Billy Bragg. Cameron does seem to get off strangely blame-free for the referendum and his cowardly disappearance thereafter though, I agree.
 
Oscie said:
I'd give Cameron the nod for 'worst', at least post-war, but May comes close. It's what happens when the main opposition resort to merely talking amongst themselves. The Labour party is effectively a hermit, locking itself up in a tower with everyone sat around listening to Owen Jones speeches that are interspersed with musical interludes from Billy Bragg. Anyone who knocks on the door, curious as to why it isn't engaging with the wider world is attacked.

From the very announcement of his candidacy for leadership, Corbynism was never about achieving a Labour government, it was about proving a point within the Labour party and 'winning back' the Labour movement. It's why Corbyn and followers are, to borrow a phrase from Mandelson, intensely relaxed about opposition. It's why the priority is never to take on the Tories on Brexit, but it is attacking comedians like Frankie Boyle and Tracy Ullman who satirise Dear Leader. Oh and David Baddiel. Not that he has but he's Jewish so, you know.
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Hey, look man, we shouldn’t be crtiticisng Labour or anything about Corbyn when there’s so much to criticise the Tories for. It’s counter productive and basically propagandist.

However, we should definitely be aggressively alienating and virtue shaming as many non hardline or semi-centrist lefties as humanly possible. Because that’s apparently super helpful.

Also stop talking about the Jews, you fecking Jew.
 
Mockney said:
Hey, look man, we shouldn’t be crtiticisng Labour or anything about Corbyn when there’s so much to criticise the Tories for. It’s counter productive and basically propagandist.

However, we should definitely be aggressively alienating and virtue shaming as many non hardline or semi-centrist lefties as humanly possible. Because that’s apparently super helpful.

Also stop talking about the Jews, you fecking Jew.
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:lol::lol:

Fair point.
 
Oscie said:



It must be hard for Labour to do anything against a government so utterly united and together on the issue of Brexit on which there exists a single, credible and widely lauded negotiation strategy, whilst also making such a success of public services, and receiving unanimous priase for its treatment of the Windrush generation. Have to feel sorry for Corbyn, if only the government would put a foot wrong then he could capitalise.
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The polls have been clear for a while. No one is coming out of the brexit shambles well.
 
Mockney said:
However, we should definitely be aggressively alienating and virtue shaming as many non hardline or semi-centrist lefties as humanly possible. Because that’s apparently super helpful.
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Well, what's good for the 'entryist Trots'...
Silva said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...oves-posters-undercover-police-spies-campaign

Lush ends it's spygate campaign after staff are intimidated by the police.
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Cheered on by people still scratching their heads about how they managed to cover up scandals for decades, no doubt.
 
Obviously a direct link there. No point talking about Labour doing badly in the polls as those who are annoyed by that fact likely support police intimidation of a shop that sells a soap. It's probably the Blairites that allowed Pat Phelan to get away with it for so long too.
 
Oscie said:
Obviously a direct link there. No point talking about Labour doing badly in the polls as those who are annoyed by that fact likely support police intimidation of a shop that sells a soap.
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Couldn't give a flying feck what the polls say, personally. There isn't an election coming up and we've already seen the clearly unrelated shifting of Labour's polling when the media is forced by law to give both sides an equal hearing. On the other hand I'm amazed you're putting so much weight in them when seemingly the Tories going up but Lib Dems going down suggests there isn't much call for a reversal on Brexit, which is the only other thing you go on about.
 
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Steven Seagull said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ear-MP-reported-police-criticising-email.html

Fair play she should be thrown in jail in my opinion. How dare this pleb think she deserves any kind of engagement
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Tories are great.
"I will work hard to ensure her lack of loyalty to her party..."
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"I sent the email to the local party because I wanted them to know that I was someone who had come back to the Conservatives under Theresa May..."
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The article states, clearly, that the woman wanted to ensure that the MP's 'treachery' was well known. The snippet of the email in the article doesn't mention this word at all. Suspect we're not being presented with the full contents of the email.
 
Corbyn's media strategy the weekend that saw the American president kick the rest of the G7 in the balls, government chaos over Brexit and Russian links to a pro-Leave campaign being exposed seems to be to announce waiters will be allowed to keep their own tips. At what point do we start seeing those who refuse to see the legitimacy in any criticism of him as not being entirely genuine?

If Davis and other Brexiteers resign from the government this time next week I fully expect Labour's response to be an announcement condemning the wasting of imperfect fruit and vegetables by the major supermarkets, or a free Argos-sized pen for everyone under the age of 23
 
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So, Corbyn gives a speech about workers rights, from ending sexual harassment and abuse to fair wages, to tips being protected so managers don't nick em and this is apparently a problem? Do you know what the word labour means?
 
Much as I've not really been pleased with it I'd agree that his strategy on Brexit of essentially doing nothing at all until now has largely been working, in that he's not been alienating any sector of his party, but I do wonder if it's starting to backfire a little bit now. There's clearly significant cause for concern as to the direction we'll head as a country if we opt for a hard Brexit, and for as much as I agree with a lot of Corbyn's stances on key issues related to health/tax etc, it's a bit silly to pretend they're not going to be heavily impacted - directly or otherwise - by whatever happens with Brexit.

I'm wary to read too much into current polling, because as a politician Corbyn tends to excel during actual campaigns when he's got something direct and tangible to work towards, and Oscie's habit of criticising him every time he opens his mouth is tiresome as feck, but polling does show a small and steady shift back to the Tories from last year when Corbyn's Labour were consistently polling ahead of them. Quite how Labour can approach this I'm not entirely sure - and putting in some Blair clone who pretends Brexit isn't a thing isn't going to help - but at the same time we should really be expecting a left-wing, liberal leader to hold the government to account over something that's being implemented to appease hardline conservatives and the like, and something that'll threaten peace in Northern Ireland. Especially if Corbyn is a conviction politician as he claims to be and not someone just trying to obtain power for the sake of obtaining power.
 
Yeah... campaigning is his bread and butter, so I'm not to worried about polls.
However, you've got your head in the clouds if you think the Tories won't strife for much harsher austerity with hard brexit. I dread to see how far they will take it.
 
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