Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

711 said:
Yeah, let's not blame the voters who voted for Brexit parties, let's blame those who voted for the one that was against. This ideology's hilarious ain't it?
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Where does it mention those who voted for them? It's a reference to Vince Cable and Tim Farron missing a Brexit vote because they had better things to do. Namely discuss starting a new centrist party and lecturing about the gays.
Mozza said:
Labour remain was run by a bunch of Blairites who didn't think Corbyn was an asset. They only called for him at the end in a panic when they had bollocked up the entire campaign
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The legendary genius of Alan Johnson. Even refused to get Momentum's help to get the message across, apparently. Luckily for him there wasn't then immediately an example of that group being able to reach voters that Labour hasn't bothered with for years, or he'd have looked like a right tit.
 
Dobba said:
Where does it mention those who voted for them? It's a reference to Vince Cable and Tim Farron missing a Brexit vote because they had better things to do. Namely discuss starting a new centrist party and lecturing about the gays.
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Thank you for explaining the inspiration for the joke, Cable and Farron shouldn't have missed a Brexit vote, I agree.

I'll explain what inspired mine: If you voted Corbyn and Labour a little over a year ago then you voted for Brexit, and if Brexit occurs now then the first person you can blame is yourself. Then Corbyn, obviously.
 
2cents said:
I really wish this what what Corbyn actually did, since I believe that the key to moving that conflict towards a peaceful resolution is the promotion of mutual understanding and recognition of the conflicting narratives adhered to by each side.

That's not what Corbyn and the section of the left he's been involved with his entire career does though. Instead, they offer solidarity and legitimacy to all expressions of the Palestinian narrative, while completely denying and rejecting the Zionist narrative. So their 'criticism' of Israel goes beyond any specific Israeli policies or actions and portrays Zionism as inherently racist, colonialist, etc., basically illegitimate and beyond-the-pale (which is why Nazi analogies, which no serious person could consider legitimate, come so easily to them).

This refusal to consider the range of historical and contemporary factors which have made and continue to make Zionism appeal to so many Jews ultimately produces car crash interpretations of the 'Zionist endeavour' such as this; and it immediately signals to the vast majority of Jews in Israel (not to mention elsewhere) that there is no space for their narrative in your idea of a 'peaceful' Palestine, and that the key to achieving that peace is their defeat.

And, unless Corbyn is pulling them aside to tell them that empathy, negotiations, and non-violence are the way forward (does anybody actually believe this to be the case?), it encourages his Palestinian interlocutors in the belief that 'victory' (i.e. the defeat of Zionism) and not compromise is the only just path to peace.

Now you could argue that what Corbyn is doing is providing a counter-balance to a mainstream discourse in which it is the Palestinian narrative that is under-represented. But assuming this is true, it's (a) not what he claims to be doing, and (b) unclear how this helps the path to a negotiated peace, since it completely alienates one of the parties to the conflict.

Ultimately, despite all his platitudes, the brand of anti-Zionism which Corbyn and his associates adhere to is a hindrance to the pursuit of real peace over there. If he was honest, he'd just admit that it's a Palestinian victory he's interested in.
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as always, great post.
 
Silva said:
That is, after all, labours only policy.
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I think if there's one thing Brexiters and Remainers agree on it is that Brexit is the most important political event for 50 or 60 years of British history, and will set a course for the future that will far outlast anything else that might happen in one one individual term. Fact is there are people who voted for a Brexit party with a Brexit leader only a year ago, yet now try and blame everyone else and hope no one will have noticed. Why should I let them forget it?
 
2cents said:
And, unless Corbyn is pulling them aside to tell them that empathy, negotiations, and non-violence are the way forward (does anybody actually believe this to be the case?), it encourages his Palestinian interlocutors in the belief that 'victory' (i.e. the defeat of Zionism) and not compromise is the only just path to peace.
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I mean... that is what he calls for when speaking publicly. For example here (given whom the interview is with, that's where you'd expect to see his most rabid rhetoric). Whatever you might dislike with that interview, you cannot say he doesn't call for negotiations and dialogue.
 
711 said:
I think if there's one thing Brexiters and Remainers agree on it is that Brexit is the most important political event for 50 or 60 years of British history, and will set a course for the future that will far outlast anything else that might happen in one one individual term. Fact is there are people who voted for a Brexit party with a Brexit leader only a year ago, yet now try and blame everyone else and hope no one will have noticed. Why should I let them forget it?
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Are you going to tell a disabled person on a verge of committing suicide because their PIP assessment declared them fit to work despite them being unable to walk and barely move their arms they caused Brexit when they voted for a decent welfare state?

Are you going to tell a single mother who is thousands of pounds in rent arears and goes hungry 5 nights a week they caused Brexit when they voted for decent wages?

Are you going to tell one of the 5 million adults who still live with their parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased funding on social housing and lower rents?

Are you going to tell the people who live in commuter towns they voted for Brexit when they voted for public transport that doesn't take a third of their wages?

Are you going to tell minorities they caused Brexit when they voted for equal rights and opportunities?

Are you going to tell parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased education funding because they're sick of getting asked to pay the teachers wages at the shithole of a school they have to send their kids to?

I'm glad Brexit is the biggest worry in your life but the rest of us aren't going to guarantee a tory victory by voting for the fecking lib dems.
 
711 said:
I think if there's one thing Brexiters and Remainers agree on it is that Brexit is the most important political event for 50 or 60 years of British history, and will set a course for the future that will far outlast anything else that might happen in one one individual term. Fact is there are people who voted for a Brexit party with a Brexit leader only a year ago, yet now try and blame everyone else and hope no one will have noticed. Why should I let them forget it?
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This is very true. I like a lot of Corbyn's ideas but he's going to have a much harder time implementing them in a Britain that's potentially hit hard economically if we end up with a no deal Brexit.
 
berbatrick said:
I mean... that is what he calls for when speaking publicly. For example here (given whom the interview is with, that's where you'd expect to see his most rabid rhetoric). Whatever you might dislike with that interview, you cannot say he doesn't call for negotiations and dialogue.
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He says that now as cover. In the same way now we all pretend he was somehow integral to a peace process in Ireland he was irrelevant to because otherwise some of his previous comments and associations would reflect badly on him.

Corbyn has spent decades cheerleading terrorist organisations like Hamas and the IRA with whom he agrees, maybe not with their methods but with their aims. Only retrospectively when it looks bad have he and his supporters decided what actually happened was that he was some well-meaning peace envoy.

What's more plausible, that he supported the causes he's on record as supporting or he genuinely thought the best way to peace was by exclusively championing a single side in two of the most violent and combustible political situations in post-war global politics? We're being asked to believe the second else...."Smear" #LeaveBritneyAlone
 
Oscie said:
He says that now as cover. In the same way now we all pretend he was somehow integral to a peace process in Ireland he was irrelevant to because otherwise some of his previous comments and associations would reflect badly on him.

Corbyn has spent decades cheerleading terrorist organisations like Hamas and the IRA with whom he agrees, maybe not with their methods but with their aims. Only retrospectively when it looks bad have he and his supporters decided what actually happened was that he was some well-meaning peace envoy.
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He also spent those decades opposing Apartheid, US meddling in South America and as a prominent member of anti-war movements where he consistently called for peaceful resolutions to conflicts, including in Palestine. This isn't a recent development.
 
Jeremy's support of losers in conflicts, his opposition to warmongering and nuclear proliferation, his long involvement in anti-war movements are major reasons why he so popular among the left and why he won both leadership elections so convincingly. It is something for him and his supporters to have pride in, not apologise for.
 
Silva said:
Are you going to tell a disabled person on a verge of committing suicide because their PIP assessment declared them fit to work despite them being unable to walk and barely move their arms they caused Brexit when they voted for a decent welfare state?

Are you going to tell a single mother who is thousands of pounds in rent arears and goes hungry 5 nights a week they caused Brexit when they voted for decent wages?

Are you going to tell one of the 5 million adults who still live with their parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased funding on social housing and lower rents?

Are you going to tell the people who live in commuter towns they voted for Brexit when they voted for public transport that doesn't take a third of their wages?

Are you going to tell minorities they caused Brexit when they voted for equal rights and opportunities?

Are you going to tell parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased education funding because they're sick of getting asked to pay the teachers wages at the shithole of a school they have to send their kids to?

I'm glad Brexit is the biggest worry in your life but the rest of us aren't going to guarantee a tory victory by voting for the fecking lib dems.
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I can tell them Corbyn's Brexit policy will make things a fecking sight worse for them if that helps.
 
sun_tzu said:
Yeah but brexit is Tony Blair's fault or summat and oooooooh Jeremy Corbyn oooooooh Jeremy Corbyn (fade to electoral defeat)
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I was half joking that some corbynista would blame brexit on Blair... Seems i was half right... It's the blairites ...

Mozza said:
Labour remain was run by a bunch of Blairites who didn't think Corbyn was an asset. They only called for him at the end in a panic when they had bollocked up the entire campaign
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Silva said:
He also spent those decades opposing Apartheid, US meddling in South America and as a prominent member of anti-war movements where he consistently called for peaceful resolutions to conflicts, including in Palestine. This isn't a recent development.
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Which isn't relevant to anything at all.

The question at hand is whether you can support organisations that involve themselves in violent means and kill civilians and claim to be a "man of peace", or not. Pointing out he thinks racial segregation is a bad idea has nothing to do with anything.

Everyone wants to see peaceful solutions. Even those involved in violence want to see peace, that's how these things work. Nobody is at war for the fun of it. There isn't a member of Hamas who thinks "Actually, deep down this is all quite fun all this bloodshed". Nobody in the IRA said "United Ireland would be good but to be honest I'd be sad to have to get rid of the semtex"

But this is what we get every time someone dares to pay attention to anything Corbyn says. It's fine he honours terrorists because....he's previously spoken out against US meddling in South America. There's nothing to see when he honours those who were responsible for killing British citiziens because.....he didn't like Apartheid.
 
711 said:
I can tell them Corbyn's Brexit policy will make things a fecking sight worse for them if that helps.
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Things aren't going to get worse for the 110,000 people who have been killed by austerity, nor the millions of people who are only a sliver a bad luck from the same fate. This condescending nonsense isn't going to be met with a eureka moment where people realise that voting for europhiles is going to solve all our problems, it's going to be met with, as the Lib Dems are finding out, a cold shoulder and disgust as to how anyone can be so out of touch.
 
Oscie said:
Everyone wants to see peaceful solutions. Even those involved in violence want to see peace, that's how these things work. Nobody is at war for the fun of it. There isn't a member of Hamas who thinks "Actually, deep down this is all quite fun all this bloodshed". Nobody in the IRA said "United Ireland would be good but to be honest I'd be sad to have to get rid of the semtex"
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oh good, you see where Jeremy's coming from
 
Silva said:
Jeremy's support of losers in conflicts, his opposition to warmongering and nuclear proliferation, his long involvement in anti-war movements are major reasons why he so popular among the left and why he won both leadership elections so convincingly. It is something for him and his supporters to have pride in, not apologise for.
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Everyone in the UK is against nuclear proliferation. What about our own nukes, will Corbyn scrap them? His manifesto says he would replace trident, so as it stands if you voted for him you voted for more nukes, but just like Brexit, let's pretend otherwise.
 
Sweet Square said:
This page is a very good example why of liberals/centrists are fecked.
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Just in time for their new party, apparently.

sun_tzu said:
I was half joking that some corbynista would blame brexit on Blair... Seems i was half right... It's the blairites ...
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Wait, so the Labour remain campaign wasn't run by Alan Johnson, who refused Momentum's help because they backed Corbyn? What a crazy dream that was.

711 said:
I can tell them Corbyn's Brexit policy will make things a fecking sight worse for them if that helps.
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Is that before or after you've finished explaining to them why they need to rally around the remainers' favourite MPs like austerity enablers Anna Soubry and Vince Cable? Or Yvette Cooper, the architect of the 'tougher' Work Capability Assessments?
 
sun_tzu said:
I was half joking that some corbynista would blame brexit on Blair... Seems i was half right... It's the blairites ...
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It's all they have. Every conversation eventually gets round to Tony Blair. Or Iraq. There's an ideology vacuum on the left where now a whole generation of political active 20/30-somethings seem to have little to say on anything if they're not talking about Tony Blair. What was that game where in 6 steps you could link any celebrity to Kevin Bacon. Speak with any Corbynite for any length of time on any political subject and they're only really interested when the conversation gets to the bit where they say "Illegal war in Iraq!"
 
Oscie said:
There's an ideology vacuum on the left where now a whole generation of political active 20/30-somethings seem to have little to say on anything if they're not talking about Tony Blair.
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Silva said:
Are you going to tell a disabled person on a verge of committing suicide because their PIP assessment declared them fit to work despite them being unable to walk and barely move their arms they caused Brexit when they voted for a decent welfare state?

Are you going to tell a single mother who is thousands of pounds in rent arears and goes hungry 5 nights a week they caused Brexit when they voted for decent wages?

Are you going to tell one of the 5 million adults who still live with their parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased funding on social housing and lower rents?

Are you going to tell the people who live in commuter towns they voted for Brexit when they voted for public transport that doesn't take a third of their wages?

Are you going to tell minorities they caused Brexit when they voted for equal rights and opportunities?

Are you going to tell parents they caused Brexit when they voted for increased education funding because they're sick of getting asked to pay the teachers wages at the shithole of a school they have to send their kids to?

I'm glad Brexit is the biggest worry in your life but the rest of us aren't going to guarantee a tory victory by voting for the fecking lib dems.
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replace brexit with blair

also iraq was a war crime but i guess that's okay because it's only bad when muslims and the irish kill people
 
711 said:
Everyone in the UK is against nuclear proliferation. What about our own nukes, will Corbyn scrap them? His manifesto says he would replace trident, so as it stands if you voted for him you voted for more nukes, but just like Brexit, let's pretend otherwise.
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He also said nothing about abolishing the monarchy, therefore I am now a monarchist. Goodbye Republic membership. Hello shitty Union Jack jacket.
 
berbatrick said:
I mean... that is what he calls for when speaking publicly. For example here (given whom the interview is with, that's where you'd expect to see his most rabid rhetoric). Whatever you might dislike with that interview, you cannot say he doesn't call for negotiations and dialogue.
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I’ve never said he doesn’t call for negotiations and dialogue, it’s his go-to platitude in every public utterance he makes on this topic. In this article though, he’s calling on the UK to talk to Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. as well as Israel, while endorsing pretty much all of their maximalist demands (the desire to actually send the Jews packing aside). It’s an endorsement of a Palestinian victory as the key to peace, it’s what he’s always advocated. There’s nothing there for Zionists Jews to look at and think it might be worth their while engaging with this guy, not that Corbyn has ever tried.

What I’m looking for is some indication that he understands that Zionism has a broad appeal that has nothing to do with racism, Jewish supremacy, or waking up in the morning and wondering how best to inflict suffering on Palestinians today, and that this appeal must be accounted for in the dialogue and negotiations that he’s always going on about. Can you dig up just one example over the many years Corbyn has been involved in pro-Palestinian activism that suggests he sees Zionism as in any sense a legitimate expression of the Jewish desire for national self-determination? It wouldn’t have to have him actually accepting Zionism as legitimate, just even a passing comment that suggests he understands in some way why so many Jews identify with Israel? Without that his calls for negotiations and dialogue appear insincere to me, and this feeling is only strengthened by his long association with the likes of George Galloway, Seamus Milne, Azzam Tamimi, the Palestinian Solidarity Movement, etc. and all the other problematic associations and activities that have come to light in recent months.
 
The most surprising thing to me about the 'new' left, again not necessarily Corbyn himself but the generation of acolytes he has in their 20s and 30s, is how little interest they actually take in politics beyond attacking those critical of the man himself. There really isn't a lot of talk in those circles about Brexit, or even really what the Tory party are doing. What they care about is:

- Who's being mean to Jeremy
- Why are they being mean to Jeremy
- What can we do to stop them being mean to Jeremy

Everything else is of secondary concern. Really it doesn't really take long to browse the various social media accounts to see how close to the truth that actually is.
 
Oscie said:
The most surprising thing to me about the 'new' left, again not necessarily Corbyn himself but the generation of acolytes he has in their 20s and 30s, is how little interest they actually take in politics beyond attacking those critical of the man himself. There really isn't a lot of talk in those circles about Brexit, or even really what the Tory party are doing. What they care about is:

- Who's being mean to Jeremy
- Why are they being mean to Jeremy
- What can we do to stop them being mean to Jeremy

Everything else is of secondary concern. Really it doesn't really take long to browse the various social media accounts to see how close to the truth that actually is.
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but he's just so cute, they fact that neoliberalism has fecked us definitely has nothing to do with it
 
Dobba said:
He also said nothing about abolishing the monarchy, therefore I am now a monarchist. Goodbye Republic membership. Hello shitty Union Jack jacket.
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I don't know, it wasn't in his manifesto, I only said you voted for a Brexit-supporting Trident-buyer, despite apparently not wanting Brexit or nuclear weapons.
 
711 said:
I don't know, it wasn't in his manifesto, I only said you voted for a Brexit-supporting Trident-buyer, despite apparently not wanting Brexit or nuclear weapons.
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This is the same argument that's used to argue that tory 2015 votes are personally responsible for Brexit, and it's really offensive to people who had all sorts of sociopathic reasons for voting for them.
 
Silva said:
This is the same argument that's used to argue that tory 2015 votes are personally responsible for Brexit, and it's really offensive to people who had all sorts of sociopathic reasons for voting for them.
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I do think Cameron's call for a referendum was a good reason not to vote for him, yes. Don't really understand the rest, sorry.
 
Silva said:
no i'm really stupid boss that's why i like jeremi
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So that's a 'no', then?

It's the new 'PC gone mad'. Something people say because other people say it.

Rice gone up 4p a pack? PC gone mad!

I can't find my fecking socks, it's this bastard neoliberalism what's done it!
 
Oscie said:
So that's a 'no', then?
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it's where it's blairism and and the more blairist is it the more neoliberal is

no i'm not going to answer your stupid condescending questions about free market liberalism, feel free to take it one of your little lib dem meetings, maybe you can talk about it between sessions of congratulating each other for being so damn reasonable
 
Silva said:
it's where it's blairism and and the more blairist is it the more neoliberal is

no i'm not going to answer your stupid condescending questions about free market liberalism
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It's not a stupid question because on the previous page you dismissed @711's concerns about Brexit, minimising the importance vs other things. Or as you put it:

"I'm glad Brexit is the biggest worry in your life but the rest of us aren't going to guarantee a tory victory by voting for the fecking lib dems."

Now if you actually had an understanding of what neoliberalism means and think that " neoliberalism has fecked us definitely", how could you not see the Brexit pursued by the Tory party and championed by the likes of Rees-Mogg that'd happily see us turn into a deregulated tax haven as the biggest threat the society?

Dismissing the importance of Brexit whilst simultaneously blaming our ills on neoliberalism definitely indicates that you don't know what at least one of those terms mean. And if I were a betting man I'd say you probably know what Brexit is.
 
Dobba said:
Who did you vote for, out of interest?
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I voted Liberal in the last election, although I've voted Labour more often in the past. As for the future I don't know. I stuck with Labour when others left for the SDP, but I feel it's different this time, I can see both major parties splitting in the next couple of years. I doubt a Corbyn Labour could win outright power, but a coalition is possible, and who knows, it might be for the best.
 
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