Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Dobba said:


The state of these cnuts.
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His entire lecture was about the challenges facing liberal values. He said he believes in building bridges, and taking to the Trumpians etc, so you can find out why people are angry in order to address it. What a cnut, eh?

You don't have to agree with something to understand it.
 
nickm said:
His entire lecture was about the challenges facing liberal values. He said he believes in building bridges, and taking to the Trumpians etc, so you can find out why people are angry in order to address it. What a cnut, eh?

You don't have to agree with something to understand it.
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Well then the irony is lost on him considering it’s charlatans of his ilk that have turned people away from these ‘liberal values’ and towards populism on both ends of the spectrum.

The best thing Tony can do is shut up and disappear into obscurity. He’s the last person I’d consider credible to talk about challenges facing progressives.
 
Kaos said:
Well then the irony is lost on him considering it’s charlatans of his ilk that have turned people away from these ‘liberal values’ and towards populism on both ends of the spectrum.

The best thing Tony can do is shut up and disappear into obscurity. He’s the last person I’d consider credible to talk about challenges facing progressives.
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Indeed. If Brexit taught us anything it's that we've had enough of experts. Who does someone who wasa politician for 25 years, leader of the country for 10 with all his first hand knowledge of winning elections, building multilateral coalitions, working with allies to achieve geopolitical and ecomomic agreements, think he has to offer when it comes to political discourse.

We should probably ask Jeremy Clarkson or that bloke from Gogglebox if we want some real insight .

Guy who's been PM for a decade? Probably has nothing to say. Smart thing to do is to assume that and double-down on a superiority complex.

You have a man who was a leader on the world stage for a decade talking about understanding present political apathy and disillusionment being told to shut the feck up by people comparatively ill-qualified to comment because they accuse him of being devisive. It's moments like this that it makes sense that as a country we voted Brexit
 
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It's a wider point. It's not just Blair. It's this whole political culture of devaluing the experienced. We saw it with Brexit. We saw it with Trump. It's very fecking dangerous and it's disheartening to see the numbers of people who now buy into it.

20 years ago Jim Royle was a comedy character. Today he'd probably be on Newsnight.

"I loved that bit where he said: ' Global warming, my arse' - he probably knows more than all these liberal scientists"

That's where we are now. Any kind of experience, knowledge or expertise is immediately dismissed. Trump. Brexit. It's all linked.
 
Kaos said:
Well then the irony is lost on him considering it’s charlatans of his ilk that have turned people away from these ‘liberal values’ and towards populism on both ends of the spectrum.
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Maybe. But you can listen to an argument irrespective of the person who is making it.
 
Kaos said:
Well then the irony is lost on him considering it’s charlatans of his ilk that have turned people away from these ‘liberal values’ and towards populism on both ends of the spectrum.

The best thing Tony can do is shut up and disappear into obscurity. He’s the last person I’d consider credible to talk about challenges facing progressives.
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Just out of interest, did you consider Obama a charlatan?
 
nickm said:
Just out of interest, did you consider Obama a charlatan?
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I do.
nickm said:
His entire lecture was about the challenges facing liberal values. He said he believes in building bridges, and taking to the Trumpians etc, so you can find out why people are angry in order to address it. What a cnut, eh?
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Is that before or after he's finished labelling people who support Labour currently as cultists? As the meme goes 'Liberals hate socialists more than fascists.'
 
nickm said:
His entire lecture was about the challenges facing liberal values. He said he believes in building bridges, and taking to the Trumpians etc, so you can find out why people are angry in order to address it. What a cnut, eh?

You don't have to agree with something to understand it.
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People are angry because they have been neglected by both parties here and in America for far to long. And sending Blair out there to tell them why it was good for them will fuel that anger.
 
Dobba said:
So if they tried being a bit more racist and the odd bit of talking up white supremacy, Blair will want to sit down and understand them?

For a fee obviously, he doesn't get out of his bed for free.
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I like the way that whenever Blair is mentioned, you pop up. I could set my watch by it.
 
Oscie said:
Indeed. If Brexit taught us anything it's that we've had enough of experts. Who does someone who wasa politician for 25 years, leader of the country for 10 with all his first hand knowledge of winning elections, building multilateral coalitions, working with allies to achieve geopolitical and ecomomic agreements, think he has to offer when it comes to political discourse.

We should probably ask Jeremy Clarkson or that bloke from Gogglebox if we want some real insight .

Guy who's been PM for a decade? Probably has nothing to say. Smart thing to do is to assume that and double-down on a superiority complex.

You have a man who was a leader on the world stage for a decade talking about understanding present political apathy and disillusionment being told to shut the feck up by people comparatively ill-qualified to comment because they accuse him of being devisive. It's moments like this that it makes sense that as a country we voted Brexit
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It's almost as if that very same man has a flawed record in government that's becoming even more flawed in retrospect, especially with how out-of-touch he is. Being in political office doesn't automatically mean you deserve to be respected, or that your opinions have an inherent worth that others lack. GWB was President for nearly a decade but most reasonable people wouldn't take anything he says seriously. Most authoritarian leaders have vast political experience, but are obviously charlatans. Domestically Brown often found himself doing a lot more than Blair, and Blair's understanding of global politics was naive at best and ignorant at worst, leading to his complicity in a devastating war whose effects are still being felt today. I've no time for the dismissal of experts but a lot of former politicians would hardly qualify as such due to the unique nature of how they gain their positions.
 
Tony Blair's government could have wrote a book on ignoring experts lol
 
Shamwow said:
Tony Blair's government could have wrote a book on ignoring experts lol
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Indeed, a significant part of Blair's style of leadership basically involved surrounding himself with some close mates and not really bothering with anyone else.
 
Oscie said:
Indeed. If Brexit taught us anything it's that we've had enough of experts. Who does someone who wasa politician for 25 years, leader of the country for 10 with all his first hand knowledge of winning elections, building multilateral coalitions, working with allies to achieve geopolitical and ecomomic agreements, think he has to offer when it comes to political discourse.

We should probably ask Jeremy Clarkson or that bloke from Gogglebox if we want some real insight .

Guy who's been PM for a decade? Probably has nothing to say. Smart thing to do is to assume that and double-down on a superiority complex.

You have a man who was a leader on the world stage for a decade talking about understanding present political apathy and disillusionment being told to shut the feck up by people comparatively ill-qualified to comment because they accuse him of being devisive. It's moments like this that it makes sense that as a country we voted Brexit
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Well firstly I’m a remainer, so I’m sorry to disappoint your presumptuous hysterics.

But hey, let’s sing the praises of the man who took it upon himself to start a phony war that led to the deaths of over a million and destabilised a region to the extent its ramifications are still felt today.

Let me ask you - how well do you think a Tony Blair would fare in an election today? I mean yer man Jeremy Corbyn is probably eternally grateful for Blair’s inadvertent endorsement through virtue of desperately pleading with Labour members to snub him. We all know how well that worked out.
 
Kaos said:
Well firstly I’m a remainer, so I’m sorry to disappoint your presumptuous hysterics.

But hey, let’s sing the praises of the man who took it upon himself to start a phony war that led to the deaths of over a million and destabilised a region to the extent its ramifications are still felt today.

Let me ask you - how well do you think a Tony Blair would fare in an election today? I mean yer man Jeremy Corbyn is probably eternally grateful for Blair’s inadvertent endorsement through virtue of desperately pleading with Labour members to snub him. We all know how well that worked out.
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It is possible to believe that Tony Blair can at the same time, be wrong about Iraq and right about the importance of classical liberal values.
 
... just waiting for Dobba now. It’s like saying Beetlejuice three times.
 
nickm said:
It is possible to believe that Tony Blair can at the same time, be wrong about Iraq and right about the importance of classical liberal values.
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I think one of the problems about modern politics is that people decide if they agree with something based on who said it. Topically you only have to look at the fact Corbyn's position on Brexit is essentially absolutely identical to May's: leave SM and CU, but argue only they can negotiate a good deal retaining benefits of both. Yet when she says it it's madness, when he says it somehow it's a sensible policy.

Few actually listen to the content of what's said, they just mindlessly cheer whatever side they've assigned themselves to support, regardless of what it is they're saying. And they'll never be seen agreeing with the side/person they don't support even if they agree with it. Essentially it's how 8 year-old's view Power Rangers or WWF; my favourite rules, your favourite is a poo face and sucks! State of British politics today.

Still people will insist with furious rage leaving the SM and CU and negotiating all keeping the benefits is a sensible policy and completely different to the other side's lunatic policy of leaving the CU and SM and negotiating to keep all of the benefits - which'll never work.
 
Oscie said:
I don't get it either. Seems a leap. I don't think Corbyn is antisemitic, however I do think he's spent his entire political life in circles in which casual antisemitism is something which many people are comfortable with. I think the party's failing to get to get to grips with the issue is likely more down to him being incompetent and lazy and ill-suited for the job he never really wanted in the first place, as much as anything else.

I think that's the closest I've ever got to being nice to him.
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That’s a hell of an accusation to make. Where’s the proof?
 
Going by his otherwise completely excruciating performance on Marr this morning (setting aside the accusations of 'bias' and 'badgering' which is what happens when a political interviewer so unfairly asks questions of Corbyn based on what he's previously said, done, or those with whom he's associated - which is SOOO unfair!) it looks as if he's relying on backroom efforts to try and prevent a vote on motion that's explicit in calling for a 2nd referendum from taking place. My guess is the party machine will muddy the waters so delegates won't get a chance to back a specific motion to have another vote, and will try and funnel it in a different direction to let him off the hook of trying to do a complete about face and argue the total opposite of what he believes.

My guess is maybe watering it down so all the conference gets to vote on is a notion of "jobs first" Brexit, whatever the feck that means.
 
Oscie said:
Going by his otherwise completely excruciating performance on Marr this morning (setting aside the accusations of 'bias' and 'badgering' which is what happens when a political interviewer so unfairly asks questions of Corbyn based on what he's previously said, done, or those with whom he's associated - which is SOOO unfair!) it looks as if he's relying on backroom efforts to try and prevent a vote on motion that's explicit in calling for a 2nd referendum from taking place. My guess is the party machine will muddy the waters so delegates won't get a chance to back a specific motion to have another vote, and will try and funnel it in a different direction to let him off the hook of trying to do a complete about face and argue the total opposite of what he believes.

My guess is maybe watering it down so all the conference gets to vote on is a notion of "jobs first" Brexit, whatever the feck that means.
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Is the vote this evening?
 
They're still trying to decide what the vote is. Might be wrong but I'd be surprised if they were permitted to vote on anything explicitly calling for a second referendum. To save the leader's blushes I suspect it'll be something like:

"This conference believes that nobody voted to be worse off, and we need a Labour government to negotiate the best deal for the people" - or some such. Watered down pap that doesn't say enough and still enables Corbyn to ape May on the issue whilst his supporters sing that awful song over anyone pointing that out.
 
“I was going to say something about how good it is being a Jew in the Labour party at the moment … but someone told me you guys don’t get irony.”

Stella Creasy to a Labour Jewish group. :lol:
 
Jippy said:
Oh right. The way they were banging on about it on the news I assumed it was tonight.
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I'd say that it's big news because it's the first time he's said to the media that conference will decide Labour policy, but he's been saying that for 3 years now. I guess the expectation amongst people who dislike him was that he'd come over dictatorial when it came to a policy like Brexit where his historical views differ to those of the membership. As a broadly pro-Corbyn Remainer I'm cautiously optimistic, but the jury's out as yet, as @Oscie says (amongst the cynicism and usual Corbyn-bashing), the wording of the motion is the key thing now and that's what will be decided between now and Tuesday. It could be that they simply have a vote on whether to have another Leave/Remain referendum, but equally it could be something that says 'In X conditions, we will call another referendum', which would give Labour room to triangulate politically as Brexit unfolds but wouldn't do much in terms of party unity and would leave the party's policy uncomfortably muddy going into a potential snap election.
 
The CLP's choices for priority and debate are interesting:

CLP priorities ballot results\:

Housing 297,032
Schools System 233,883
Justice for the Windrush generation 212,612
Palestine 188,019
Brexit 149,172
The NHS 121,487
Welfare System 89,861
Climate Change and Fracking 72,890
Local Government Funding 68,473
Social Care 64,569


I guess this is what happens when a party gets overrun by fringe protesters. Real issues get put by the wayside for pet protest issues, just a lot more navel gazing. Because we wouldn't know it was a left wing party unless Palestine was given undue prominence of course....
 
jeff_goldblum said:
The CLP's choices for priority and debate are interesting:

CLP priorities ballot results\:

Housing 297,032
Schools System 233,883
Justice for the Windrush generation 212,612
Palestine 188,019
Brexit 149,172
The NHS 121,487
Welfare System 89,861
Climate Change and Fracking 72,890
Local Government Funding 68,473
Social Care 64,569


I guess this is what happens when a party gets overrun by fringe protesters. Real issues get put by the wayside for pet protest issues, just a lot more navel gazing. Because we wouldn't know it was a left wing party unless Palestine was given undue prominence of course....
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In contrast...

Trade Union and Affiliate priorities ballot results Brexit 1,878,501
An Economy for the Many 1,848,812 Government Contracts 1,845,256
In-Work Poverty 1,845,084
Housing 39,479
The NHS 35,445
Justice for the Windrush generation 29,622
Social Care 9,642
Schools System 7,697
 
It's been transformed into a party that settles vendettas and seems to not give a feck about real issues.

Personally I think they should just make the party conference a list of things they disliked about previous Labour governments. Oh wait, they have. Joy.

Also he was thrown out for shouting and heckling someone giving a speech, not for "speaking out", melodramatic and inaccurate feckwits. It is brilliantly timed though, people questioning whether the leadership is going to represent member's views on Brexit, questioning the conference focusing on issues that shouldn't really be central, and along comes the Corbyn supporter's Tweet just in time with and update on Walter Wolfgang. I know half a dozen people on this forum alone who haven't had a night's sleep in over a decade worrying about him.

Couldn't make it up. The Labour party. I fear I might be sleep and miss the excitement of seeing Carol Winterbottom take to the stage, cruelly defeated in the selection for the parliamentary seat of Blackburn by Jack Straw many moons ago. I hear she's due to be cannonised. That'll finally right one of the most profound injustices of the 20th century.

Just as an aside: What's everyone's favourite Walter Wolfgang themed-book and/or international day of remembrance? Just keep it top 3, to save this taking over the entire thread.
 
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