So democracy to you is about winning ?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
So democracy to you is about winning ?
Supports Brexit but won't publicly say so, appears to be playing both sides to keep himself popular.
Why? On principles? Business interests? Politics?
Assume you are taking about Corbyn only right? Or is it the party?
Haven't been following because I was resigned to the shitty situation. The title change on this thread tweaked my interest...
Yeah that’s what I’m suggesting, assuming nothing else changed but Remain won by however small a margin.
Would you want to Farage to have his second referendum?
It’s a simple yes or no question really
I don’t doubt that there would be people who originally voted Leave who would change their vote to Remain.
I don’t doubt that there would be people who would do the opposite, or didn’t vote the first time around but would vote the second time around - and that doesn’t necessarily mean they would vote to remain either.
Possibly. A family friend voted to leave as he was unhappy his village bus had seen a reduced service. Cameron seriously underestimated just how many saw the chance of a protest vote.
Democracy is about having a choice, there is no choice.
I already answered.
I said in the post you quoted why I feel the way I do. It's not about individuals and politics. It's about fairness...
Which is why I wouldn't want it but I wouldn't try to stop it because people are entitled to change their minds if facts and situations change...
To be fair you've confused the feck out of me
My stance is that it's unfair and fecking stupid to make such a decision based on a small margin and the lies that were told. Simple to understand. Agree to disagree and let's move on...
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It also changes the Brexit vote substantially too. Brexit could now be the end of the United Kingdom in that context.
@villain if democracy in the form of a single vote drives the UK off a cliff, then how is that going to help promote democracy? If people can’t change course even when the cliff edge is very clearly there and approaching fast?
Nothing to do with Corbyn really, you'd think he dictates all policy by way some here babble on.
Labour have decided to play the card of we can do a better Brexit than the Tories and they'll do as such until they think their exists the votes for a second referendum.
Neither of those positions are particularly realistic so what they're actually doing is sitting waiting for the Tories to mess up so they can fight a GE.
Oic. Hence the march?
To change the status quo on something as big as membership of the EU should require an overwhelming majority.
We have already seen how many factors could lead people to vote one way or the other.
Some of which are pretty trivial.
A simple majority could not and I believe did not reflect the nations true feelings about the EU.
The referendum should have been set such that Leave required at least 55%.
We have already seen how many factors could lead people to vote one way or the other.
Some of which are pretty trivial.
A simple majority could not and I believe did not reflect the nations true feelings about the EU.
The referendum should have been set such that Leave required at least 55%.
I didn't see where you answered clearly - you're suggesting that unless there's a large majority as the result, then you'd be open to vote again, is that what you're saying?
If thats what you're saying then that's fair enough and at least you're consistent - I can't argue with that.
I suspect that a lot of people who are open to a referendum, wouldn't be open to one if the result was the other way around.
It was a series of votes, with Brexit being the climax.
UKIP were voted into parliament over a number of years with the sole intention of us leaving the EU.
Cameron won the 2013 general election with the promise to include the referendum on his manifesto.
Then of course Brexit.
A lot of people wanted this happen for a number of years, and there wasn't enough pushback until it was too late.
Whether we like this or not - a second vote doesn't fix that, and what's to stop a third vote thereafter?
Yea probably but look at the stakes. I just think a majority and a largely above board campaign would go a long way to shutting those people down. As it stands they have grounds to feel... What's the word? Snaked... You know what I mean anyway...
For years the EU has been used as a scapegoat by both major parties, and villified and lied about by the likes of UKIP. Now we clearly see the real consequences of walking away in a way we hadn't before. It's all laid out for anyone to see, and now all we're asking is for people to be given a chance to confirm that decision if they choose to. If they vote to remain, then nothing is to stop a third vote later, but after stepping away from the cliff edge at the last minute, its extremely unlikely people would be in any rush to run towards it again.
Spot on HJ. Here in the East Midlands entire communities have been run into the ground after decades of decline, lack of investment, and cuts in services. You get a few card carrying racists and swivel eyed empire lovers but the truth is it's largely ordinary people who have been shafted by a succession of governments. Unfortunately they're getting shafted again by the Johnson's and the JRM's of this world whilst simultaneously being demonised by the remain voter as simply thick and racist for the crime of voting for what they were told would be best for them.
I've encountered more racism and xenophobia sat at well stocked dining tables in the home counties than I ever have in an East Midlands pit village.
As for the 3rd vote what if.... You'd think that nobody would be on the fence for a 2nd referendum. Nobody would be complacent leave or remain. (you could even make it clear, no more votes on it after the fact if you wanted)
So whatever came out (via majority because if you can't get a majority then you just stay ffs) in the 2nd referendum would probably be what came out in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc... I think it would be enough. Doubt a 3rd attempt world get much momentum unless something drastically changed after the vote. In which case imho a 3rd vote would be warranted...
Edit: @Kentonio beat me to it...
So whatever came out (via majority because if you can't get a majority then you just stay ffs) in the 2nd referendum would probably be what came out in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc... I think it would be enough. Doubt a 3rd attempt world get much momentum unless something drastically changed after the vote. In which case imho a 3rd vote would be warranted...
Edit: @Kentonio beat me to it...
Dunno, I come from an East Midland pit village and there was always plenty of casual racism there.
I don't think a above board campaign exists in politics.
If we voted to Remain the first time around and there was a chance for a second referendum - would you support it?
Not a chance in hell.
Then again Remain doesn't come with a potential economic collapse as a result, so I think a little hypocrisy here is acceptable.
I think some of those voting in favour of leave did so as a protest against the establishment. It wasn't as much about the EU as it was about going against the way things were/are.
I watched this video from the Guardian which sheds some light on why some voted out. Certainly some more level-headed opinions in there.
I'd still vote remain today but I do understand the motivations of some leavers.
I've also seen some stuff about the Eastern Europeans who moved to the UK recently. They all work in factory/warehouse/service jobs and some of them work ridiculous hours, up to 80-90 a week in some cases. They make the point that if you take them out of the equation, there's no one left to do those jobs because Brits are generally going for customer service/call-center role's.
It's all a bit of a mess really.
I watched this video from the Guardian which sheds some light on why some voted out. Certainly some more level-headed opinions in there.
I'd still vote remain today but I do understand the motivations of some leavers.
I've also seen some stuff about the Eastern Europeans who moved to the UK recently. They all work in factory/warehouse/service jobs and some of them work ridiculous hours, up to 80-90 a week in some cases. They make the point that if you take them out of the equation, there's no one left to do those jobs because Brits are generally going for customer service/call-center role's.
It's all a bit of a mess really.
Exactly , don't bother to find out if by voting Brexit it would actually change their situation or who was responsible for their situation. Brainwashed by a bunch of liars.
Don't disagree with the rest.
There's levels tho aren't there? It's not one or the other is it? Let's not pretend every campaign is the same...
All I'll say to these people is It's not about what other people think of you. It's about what you do. You're defined by your actions. Tell people why you are voting leave? How it will fix your problems? Have you changed your mind? Speak up for yourself... Speak to the politicians that are shafting you, even if it's one from your own party or one that voted leave with you. Seeing someone shut down a bigot in comment sections and then going on to say how they voted leave but despise cnuts like the person they just shut down would go a long way too.
It's all good distancing themselves from the thick racists/xenophobes but maybe do it vocally and visibly?
@villain you alluded to speaking to leave voters that are smart, informed, etc...
Where the feck are they? I never see them...
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If people are saying that we can only have one referendum on an issue then the one in the 1970's should have been the last referendum on the matter.
I think that the idea you can only have one vote on a subject and to vote on it again is antidemocratic is ridiculous. In Government they have votes on subjects that have been voted down before every day of the week. Just because a vote has been made in one direction doesn't mean that it shouldn't be voted on again.
The thing is that I don't really want a new referendum because I'm not sure that the result would be any different and if we voted Brexit again that would make the mandate stronger.
As for the Lib Dems, why would anybody vote for them? You can't trust them to keep to their election manifesto. Offer them a little bit of power and they'd sell out their own grandmothers and first born children.
I worked in a warehouse for a few months after getting laid off and having to wait for my next career job to come through. If you took the Eastern European's out of that place, it would have ground to an immediate stop. There were a small number of older Brits who contributed just as much as the Eastern Europeans, but the young Brits who'd regularly turn up there were useless. They usually left after a week or two, after spending all day pissing around, chatting with their mates, breaking stock and generally just causing more trouble than they were worth. I'm not exaggerating here, if we lose the Eastern Europeans then our logistics companies are going to be fecked.
They do exist in certain social spheres but these people intend to exploit a differently regulated market, that they will help create.
Yea I know what you are getting at there. That's what I alluded to when I said this is an earner for some and a power play for others.
It certainly seems that way. I haven't worked in warehouse jobs but I always get the impression that the younger Brits doing those roles are some of the worst we have to offer.
Most of them were there because the job centre was making them accept a job or lose benefits. I know this because they talked about it endlessly. Alongside how much they hated the job and wanted to leave and how shit it was and blah blah blah. They had the work ethic of toddlers, it was embarrasing to watch.
I'm with you on this. A second referendum will bring only a no deal outcome.
How come? Aren't we heading for no deal anyway?
Y'all already know what I think anyway. If leave managed to get a stronger mandate then so be it. Feckries but will of the people and all that...
Not really because years have passed from the original decision. Its not like they re-held a referendum immediately after.
Attempts have been made to try and put the original decision into action, it is becoming clear as was always clear to those with sense that it is a very impractical decision which flies in the face of economic logic and could cause long-lasting societal issues which would prove irreparable in the long term if the UK was to stand firm in the course it was being asked to take.
Now that almost three years would have passed, by mid 2019 if it is still proving to be impossible to carry out in a manner which would be somewhat of a 'success' for the UK, then of course they should be allowed to hold another referendum to gauge everyone's opinions in light of what has happened in the past three years.
Even someone like myself was during the initial referendum unsure of what 'Brexit' really meant and how much it would impact the nation. I grossly underestimated its impact. I think there are many people out there who didn't realistically think we would ever come out of the EU and never took the first referendum seriously and most likely didn't even vote. I don't think that would happen again - as the nation is much more aware of what is at stake here.
I also think we can't use Labour or Libs 'electability' as a barometer to see how the next referendum would go. Many left wing people are not convinced by Corbyn or Lib Dems, likewise many conservative voters would obviously not vote for either of those parties but Brexit will hurt the wealthy who own big businesses a great deal - pretty sure they won't be keen on leaving any stone unturned for the second referendum. I believe the first vote caught a lot of people unaware - don't think they were worried about the result and thought it was a foregone conclusion.
Sure but we saw similar tactics used in the last few general elections - this is the environment of politics these days.
There's no niceties left.
London & the South, surprisingly - well maybe the South isn't so surprising. Mostly business owners, bankers & lawyers
Most of their arguments are around the limiting factor of the EU, especially when it comes to funding, research, policy & other legislation.
To them, the EU is failing, from a legislative, financial and economical perspective.
I don't think we needed a referendum to fix these issues, it could've happened while we remained - just likely to be a slower burn. & the other side of the argument is that there's no guarantee a UK government would pander to these needs anyway when Brexit happens.
I work with corporations, investment funds, lawyers - as well as my own personal circle of small business owners & other law & finance professionals - and you'd think they are the ones that are freaking out the most - and so far it's not been the case. My workload has increased drastically drafting up new contracts but thats not too surprising.
It's looking like that but there is still some chance of a deal due to
.NL border
.Some '''pressure'' from remain tories(Although it might not be worth mentioning)
.Pressure from british business and finance on the tory party
.A worry that a complete collapse of the UK could lead to Corbyn being in power.
But it yeah a no deal is getting closer every day sadly.
Yea I wasn't really thinking about those guys I've heard those arguements. Was thinking moreso about the bulk (or what I perceive to be the bulk anyway) of the leave vote. The people that will likely feel the sharp end of all this...
Yea it's feckries...
Other than lawyers I worked in the same circles, didn't know one single person from that environment who voted leave. Investors banking on a surge in Euro currency and devaluation of Sterling I could believe.
Well the point is, that there's more of those guys out there than we perceive them to be.
Your anecdotes and my anecdotes are different - not too surprising is it?
I would have loved to have met one. I'd really actually love to have a discussion with JRM or Farage or one of that ilk - would be hilarious.
Regardless. Couldn't care less about em if I'm being honest. Something about willfully wanting to put the country thru a feckries for their own personal gain don't sit right with me... I'd rather have a pint with a xenophobe Brexiter than listen to those guys justify their angle.
Point taken tho...