Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[sullydnl]

 

[Penna]

So a question for the British posters on here (almost all Remainers) - would you prefer that May’s deal gets approved or would you want it voted down? Accept the certainty of leaving but with the assurance of short term stability or take the risk on political deadlock which could result in the chaos of crashing out with no deal but does leave open the possibility that parliament might throw this intractable mess back to a second referendum?

I'd rather have the deal, because once the March 29 deadline passes I think there may be some subtle softening of positions. If the prospect of no deal could guarantee a second referendum, I'd obviously choose that - but I don't think it would, and any deal is better than no deal (in my opinion).

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Go on then...knife her.

Pretty sure her days are numbered regardless.

 

[Cheesy]

Pretty sure her days are numbered regardless.

I dunno, she seems to continually cling on irrespective of what happens around her. The main job remains a bit of a poisoned chalice and so I still struggle to see who wants to actually step up to the plate. Especially when the candidates on show are so incredibly uninspiring.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I'd rather have the deal, because once the March 29 deadline passes I think there may be some subtle softening of positions. If the prospect of no deal could guarantee a second referendum, I'd obviously choose that - but I don't think it would, and any deal is better than no deal (in my opinion).

It’s a horrible dilemma. I’d be tempted to gamble in the hope of a second referendum but neither of the options involve winning - you either accept a loss now or take a huge risk in the hope of merely returning to the status quo. How a G7 and UN security council permanent member state ended up in this situation is a catastrophic failure of leadership.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The leader of the influential ERG, Jacob Rees Mogg, describes the deal as a “middle muddle fiddle fuddle” that is doomed from the start.

“There is a risk we are in 1846 territory,” he tells Channel 4 News, referring to the 19th century split in the Conservative Party over the corn laws.

JRM, home at last.

 

[Brophs]

Personally, I'm amazed to see that Boris Johnson, a man who could find a way to choke on his own elbow, is appalled, notwithstanding that he was one of the main people to have put the fox in the hen house.

 

[esmufc07]

I do worry how (if it does happen, and I think it will) another referendum/People's Vote will alter the political make-up of our country. I can't help but feel it would perhaps act as a catalyst for a rise in support for more right-wing politics if a new vote was granted and the country voted to remain. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

A part of me thinks it's just better to leave and deal with the fall out, however bad it may be.

The whole thing is just a gigantic mess. Surely history will judge Cameron as the worst PM in modern history, if it doesn't already. A part of me actually empathises with May as she literally has an impossible job.

 

[Balljy]

A part of me actually empathises with May as she literally has an impossible job.

I think the best anybody could hope for as PM through this mess is to still be there (not that anybody else would want it as it would essentially be a job for 8 months as it stands). Her choice was to go for a hard Brexit and split the cabinet, a soft Brexit and split the cabinet or somewhere in-between and split the cabinet. Labour wouldn't support any of the options.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I dunno, she seems to continually cling on irrespective of what happens around her. The main job remains a bit of a poisoned chalice and so I still struggle to see who wants to actually step up to the plate. Especially when the candidates on show are so incredibly uninspiring.

Something has to give soon.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I do worry how (if it does happen, and I think it will) another referendum/People's Vote will alter the political make-up of our country. I can't help but feel it would perhaps act as a catalyst for a rise in support for more right-wing politics if a new vote was granted and the country voted to remain. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

A part of me thinks it's just better to leave and deal with the fall out, however bad it may be.

The whole thing is just a gigantic mess. Surely history will judge Cameron as the worst PM in modern history, if it doesn't already. A part of me actually empathises with May as she literally has an impossible job.

Things would probably get ugly if a second referendum voted for remain but things would also get ugly in the economic downturn caused by Brexit. There are no good options, only least worst. I agree with you on Cameron and May. You’d always assign the most blame to the arsonist rather than the person displaying a lack of imagination in putting out the fire.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Can someone do me good turn and explain the 3 biggest things that Brexit is going to impact?

And also, is there any chance at all that it’ll just be forgotten about and people will pretend it never happened?

 

[balaks]

So a question for the British posters on here (almost all Remainers) - would you prefer that May’s deal gets approved or would you want it voted down? Accept the certainty of leaving but with the assurance of short term stability or take the risk on political deadlock which could result in the chaos of crashing out with no deal but does leave open the possibility that parliament might throw this intractable mess back to a second referendum?

I'd prefer Mays deal gets approved 100%

 

[711]

As the DUP are so unhappy won't they withdraw their supply and confidence agreement? I'd be surprised if they don't, so will the Tories continue as a minority government, or is a general election a certainty?

 

[rpitchfo]

I voted remain but I tend to agree with the idea that we have to leave properly now.

We are a democracy and with that comes the responsibility to honour even bad decisions.

We have to be able to self destruct....will it cripple a generation? Probably! and then the people who wanted that can be castrated by history as far I’m concerned. I can’t bear the idea of the Tory backbencher bleating on about the patriotic perfect brexit anymore.

 

[balaks]

I voted remain but I tend to agree with the idea that we have to leave properly now.

We are a democracy and with that comes the responsibility to honour even bad decisions.

We have to be able to self destruct....will it cripple a generation? Probably! and then the people who wanted that can be castrated by history as far I’m concerned. I can’t bear the idea of the Tory backbencher bleating on about the patriotic perfect brexit anymore.

What do you mean by leave properly?

 

[sun_tzu]

As the DUP are so unhappy won't they withdraw their supply and confidence agreement? I'd be surprised if they don't, so will the Tories continue as a minority government, or is a general election a certainty?

Almost certain no general election
Possibly enough labour MP's hate Corbyn more than the brexiteers hate may (and she gets The Deal through)
And for certain the dup hate Corbyn more than they hate may
More likley they try to take may down but that only triggers a conservative leadership election most likley won by a eurosceptic such as Johnson Davies or mogg... But no requirement for a general election

Dup will probably support the new leader based on a hard brexit

 

[lsd]

I do worry how (if it does happen, and I think it will) another referendum/People's Vote will alter the political make-up of our country. I can't help but feel it would perhaps act as a catalyst for a rise in support for more right-wing politics if a new vote was granted and the country voted to remain. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

A part of me thinks it's just better to leave and deal with the fall out, however bad it may be.

The whole thing is just a gigantic mess. Surely history will judge Cameron as the worst PM in modern history, if it doesn't already. A part of me actually empathises with May as she literally has an impossible job.

Can Cameron be blamed for people being stupid enough to vote leave ?

Yes he should never have given the option and clearly got carried away with Scotland vote but I would put more blame on Farage and his racial scaremongering as well as Boris who knew voting leave would be a disaster but used it in a desperate attempt to grab power at any cost .

They and the idiots who listened to their lies are the people to blame the most here

I fact I would blame Ed Miliband for stabbing his own brother in the back as none of this would ever have happened otherwise

 

[saivet]

I do worry how (if it does happen, and I think it will) another referendum/People's Vote will alter the political make-up of our country. I can't help but feel it would perhaps act as a catalyst for a rise in support for more right-wing politics if a new vote was granted and the country voted to remain. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

A part of me thinks it's just better to leave and deal with the fall out, however bad it may be.

The whole thing is just a gigantic mess. Surely history will judge Cameron as the worst PM in modern history, if it doesn't already. A part of me actually empathises with May as she literally has an impossible job.

This is how I feel too, especially on the bold. We don't leave the EU at all, second referendum or not and there will an uproar. Hard brexit and we're potentially fecked.

As pointless as I think a soft Brexit is, I hope it could be enough to appease those who wanted out of the EU. People are fickle and a symbolic leaving of the EU may satisfy enough despite the lack of practical difference.

 

[rpitchfo]

I voted remain but I tend to agree with the idea that we have to leave properly now.

We are a democracy and with that comes the responsibility to honour even bad decisions.

We have to be able to self destruct....will it cripple a generation? Probably! and then the people who wanted that can be castrated by history as far I’m concerned. I can’t bear the idea of the Tory backbencher bleating on about the patriotic perfect brexit anymore.

No deal...full removal....falling off the edge of a cliff stuff. I want to see it play out now. Rule Brittania

 

[GloryHunter07]

As the DUP are so unhappy won't they withdraw their supply and confidence agreement? I'd be surprised if they don't, so will the Tories continue as a minority government, or is a general election a certainty?

The DUP get literally billions of £ to stick with the Tories, so they wont walk away easily

 

[esmufc07]

Can Cameron be blamed for people being stupid enough to vote leave ?

Yes he should never have given the option and clearly got carried away with Scotland vote but I would put more blame on Farage and his racial scaremongering as well as Boris who knew voting leave would be a disaster but used it in a desperate attempt to grab power at any cost .

They and the idiots who listened to their lies are the people to blame the most here

I fact I would blame Ed Miliband for stabbing his own brother in the back as none of this would ever have happened otherwise

It's a multi-faceted issue and obviously the blame can't be fully laid at Cameron's feet, but as PM he should never have put a referendum on the table, and did so only because UKIP was taking away Tory votes. He was arrogant enough to think the country would never vote leave, despite half a decade of austerity and immigrant bashing.

However, simply labeling anyone who voted leave as an idiot isn't at all helpful. People voted for many different things, and it's a complex issue.

 

[711]

Almost certain no general election
Possibly enough labour MP's hate Corbyn more than the brexiteers hate may (and she gets The Deal through)
And for certain the dup hate Corbyn more than they hate may
More likley they try to take may down but that only triggers a conservative leadership election most likley won by a eurosceptic such as Johnson Davies or mogg... But no requirement for a general election

Dup will probably support the new leader based on a hard brexit

Betfair odds on the year of the next general election has the favourite as 2019 (5/4) and the least likely as 2021 (10/1). This obviously proves bog-all but I find it interesting nonetheless.

 

[711]

The DUP get literally billions of £ to stick with the Tories, so they wont walk away easily

It was £1 billion extra, I believe, which isn't actually a lot as a proportion of the Northern Irish budget. Irish politicians seem incredibly passionate about their causes to me, I can't see that as being anywhere near enough to influence their decision. The loyalists want complete union, I reckon they would sacrifice anything for that

 

[sun_tzu]

Betfair odds on the year of the next general election has the favourite as 2019 (5/4) and the least likely as 2021 (10/1). This obviously proves bog-all but I find it interesting nonetheless.

Paddy power similar with 2022 at 6/4
Suspect 2019 skewed by significant short term bets

 

[sun_tzu]

It was £1 billion extra, I believe, which isn't actually a lot as a proportion of the Northern Irish budget. Irish politicians seem incredibly passionate about their causes to me, I can't see that as being anywhere near enough to influence their decision. The loyalists want complete union, I reckon they would sacrifice anything for that

Anythibg... Including the peace process... Yeah actually sadly I think your right

 

[711]

Paddy power similar with 2022 at 6/4
Suspect 2019 skewed by significant short term bets

Could be. I am a gambler but I'm staying right out of this one!

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Politicians of both parties who consciously ended heavy industry, left the worst affected areas to rot and blamed it on the EU and immigration are culpable for Brexit. For many places in this country changes in government over the last 35 years haven't yielded any concrete improvement to peoples' lives, many people saw Brexit as a once in a lifetime chance to effect real change.

Cameron deserves especial blame for doing more than most to make people miserable and scapegoat EU migration whilst reading the mood so disastrously that he actually gave people the chance to vote on it.

 

[Sweet Square]

Politicians of both parties who consciously ended heavy industry, left the worst affected areas to rot and blamed it on the EU and immigration are culpable for Brexit. For many places in this country changes in government over the last 35 years haven't yielded any concrete improvement to peoples' lives, many people saw Brexit as a once in a lifetime chance to effect real change.

Cameron deserves especial blame for doing more than most to make people miserable and scapegoat EU migration whilst reading the mood so disastrously that he actually gave people the chance to vote on it.

Agree although would help if they stopped voting tory.

 

[VeevaVee]

It's a multi-faceted issue and obviously the blame can't be fully laid at Cameron's feet, but as PM he should never have put a referendum on the table, and did so only because UKIP was taking away Tory votes. He was arrogant enough to think the country would never vote leave, despite half a decade of austerity and immigrant bashing.

However, simply labeling anyone who voted leave as an idiot isn't at all helpful. People voted for many different things, and it's a complex issue.

Most were at least naive and easily fooled. That includes my Dad who's otherwise a smart, reasonable guy and voted Labour all his life, but fell for some (imo obvious) lies about how it would somehow improve British industry, which he's worked in since he was 16. Still totally ignores all the implosions we see and pretends it's all ok, like most of them from what I've seen. I'm not sure why he thought giving complete power to a Tory government was ever a good idea for it, but also don't think many looked much further than the flurry of crappy 'info' thrown about at the time.

I'd rather we do it again because I think it will actually put all those who've already seen it as justification for their right wing views in their place, rather than see them rise up, and at least in the long term that's surely safer then allowing them to feel like they have some power because they 'won'.

 

[lsd]

Most were at least naive and easily fooled. That includes my Dad who's otherwise a smart, reasonable guy and voted Labour all his life, but fell for some (imo obvious) lies about how it would somehow improve British industry, which he's worked in since he was 16. Still totally ignores all the implosions we see and pretends it's all ok, like most of them from what I've seen. I'm not sure why he thought giving complete power to a Tory government was ever a good idea for it, but also don't think many looked much further than the flurry of crappy 'info' thrown about at the time.

I'd rather we do it again because I think it will actually put all those who've already seen it as justification for their right wing views in their place, rather than see them rise up, and at least in the long term that's surely safer then allowing them to feel like they have some power because they 'won'.

Exactly you can't just blame the guy who gave the choice you have to blame the people who voted for it .

There had to be a lot of labour supporters who for whatever reason listened to Farage and Boris and actually agreed .

It is all mental as for the DUP going by the votes iv seen here a great deal of their voters opted to stay yet they ignore that to claim some power with the Tories .

A lot of influential people made the wrong decision that they didn't even agree on because of greed .

Then you have Corbyn sitting doing and saying nothing weakening his and labours position by the day .

The future is not bright here especially when the only person who seems to have come out of this with any credibility is Jo Johnson which is shocking

 

[711]

It's sod's law that the Liberals are the weakest they've been for generations just when they're the only ones who are right.

 

[Andrew~]

Why are people here so confident that if there was a second vote, the previous vote would be overturned?

 

[Cheesy]

Why are people here so confident that if there was a second vote, the previous vote would be overturned?

I think most people recognise that there'd be no guarantee. Just that there'd be a somewhat decent chance. Polling for remain is reasonably strong and the process for leaving has been a complete cock-up from start to finish, highlighting the stupidity of the process. I doubt any Remain vote would manage to get above 55% and so it'd obviously be an incredibly tight hypothetical vote, but if lessons could be learned from 2016 then there'd be a decent chance. Although it's all hypothetical anyway since a second vote won't happen.

 

[redshaw]

Why are people here so confident that if there was a second vote, the previous vote would be overturned?

Maybe it's easier to stay after watching it play out over the last two years.

I'd say more people and even politicians are informed of the process and ramifications. The run up to the vote was a lot of scaremongering without much explanation of key parts of the membership.

While NI is not in peoples thoughts now or before, the actual idea of a return of a hard border is something most people would want to avoid. Leaving the EU means a hard border unless the EU give in and undermine the whole of the EU.

On the other hand I do see some have soured on the EU with not being very helpful.

Not known before the result was how Scotland and NI voted to stay in. If the EU is stubborn and the UK leaves then Scotland will go for another indy referendum and try to join the EU. NI face a tough outlook of a hard border or somehow breaking away to be part of the EU. Could be the end of the UK. Perhaps for some that would be good though.

Right now Brexit is very complicated with four countries, a big Ireland border issue, it's at an impasse. For a single country it would be much easier but still economically risky.

Not explained before was banking passport and financial services. UK is the financial hub of the world and that is in danger.

We don't have many cards to play with the EU. Do we want to call their bluff?

 

[Honest John]

Time for brexiteers to put up or shut up.

They won’t though. The irony is that if you offered any of them this deal one week before the referendum they’d have bitten your hand off.

 

[GloryHunter07]

It was £1 billion extra, I believe, which isn't actually a lot as a proportion of the Northern Irish budget. Irish politicians seem incredibly passionate about their causes to me, I can't see that as being anywhere near enough to influence their decision. The loyalists want complete union, I reckon they would sacrifice anything for that

You are right, thought it was more.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

A part of me thinks it's just better to leave and deal with the fall out, however bad it may be.

I'm the same. The sticking point for me is that Brexit will enable us to negotiate our own bilateral trade deals with whichever nation we want to. The absence of this ability would render Brexit completely pointless and it looks like that could happen! In effect we will remain tied to the EU on far worse terms than we used to have (we had a great deal previously!).

They were discussing on Radio 4 yesterday the idea that a hard Brexit would be 'cleansing' or a chance for a full economic re-calibration and approach. The problem with this is that a lot of people are going to get burned during that process. The people that promote these ideas are nearly always economically Brexit-proof.

 

[Maagge]

I'm the same. The sticking point for me is that Brexit will enable us to negotiate our own bilateral trade deals with whichever nation we want to. The absence of this ability would render Brexit completely pointless and it looks like that could happen! In effect we will remain tied to the EU on far worse terms than we used to have (we had a great deal previously!).

They were discussing on Radio 4 yesterday the idea that a hard Brexit would be 'cleansing' or a chance for a full economic re-calibration and approach. The problem with this is that a lot of people are going to get burned during that process. The people that promote these ideas are nearly always economically Brexit-proof.

You also have the fact it's taken this fecking long to figure out what the hell the plan is with regards to Brexit, and it's still not clear.
How much time will it take to renegotiate trade deals with every single country you'd want to trade with?

 

[Massive Spanner]

I voted remain but I tend to agree with the idea that we have to leave properly now.

We are a democracy and with that comes the responsibility to honour even bad decisions.

We have to be able to self destruct....will it cripple a generation? Probably! and then the people who wanted that can be castrated by history as far I’m concerned. I can’t bear the idea of the Tory backbencher bleating on about the patriotic perfect brexit anymore.

I swear i've seen that statement or a differently worded version of it in here a million times already, and it makes less sense every time.

if you voted remain, and now the consequences of leave look even worse than they did before, then why the actual feck would you now think you should leave?

and what does "leave properly" even mean. at the time of the referendum nobody knew what way you'd "leave" so what exactly does leaving mean now?