Wisconsin teens participate in Nazi salute

@villain You are overanalysing and overrate your own ability to read how other people minds work. I won't take this any further as it is really silly now, and moves too far from any topic relevant. I respect your viewpoint and learned that the word savage is connected to black people as you told me, I think that is racist to connect them, but I will try to think about it in that way to avoid misunderstandings later. But no It was very much a conscious decision to pick a certain group for reference and example. It was very random in fact, and there isn't some grand meaning you are exposing. Sorry.

africanspur said:
No, I and other black people do not always think there should be a reference to black people in everything people say and I'm not sure how you think that is an adequate response. I would have thought you'd excluded black people and that I therefore would no longer be able to properly understand the situation because I can only empathise with blacks? Why would you think that?
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That is fair enough. I honestly didn't mean any harm, it was totally random. I'm a bit interested in gang-culture and I know a lot of people view all members as lost causes, and I recently learned some inside information from a Crip so that is why I referenced that gang, without specifying which gang. Also, the guy @oneniltothearsenal was the first in this thread to compare less fortunate black kids in the 90's in America to these little racist nerds. So my point was the hypocrisy in values on the view of race. I think you should apply your values to all humans. Giving one guy the benefit of doubt but not the other based on a preconceived notion is what gets me.
 
Where did all these "funny" oneliner posters come from suddenly?
 
Silva said:
read the thread kid, they have a history of racist behaviour
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That's the thing we're discussing you condescending clown. Do they all have a history of racist behaviour or are we happy to consider the ones who don't, to be collateral damage just for our need to satiate our thirst for blood? I know you are but I'm wondering about the average person in this thread.
 
MikeKing said:
@villain You are overanalysing and overrate your own ability to read how other people minds work. I won't take this any further as it is really silly now, and moves too far from any topic relevant. I respect your viewpoint and learned that the word savage is connected to black people as you told me, I think that is racist to connect them, but I will try to think about it in that way to avoid misunderstandings later. But no It was very much a conscious decision to pick a certain group for reference and example. It was very random in fact, and there isn't some grand meaning you are exposing. Sorry.


That is fair enough. I honestly didn't mean any harm, it was totally random. I'm a bit interested in gang-culture and I know a lot of people view all members as lost causes, and I recently learned some inside information from a Crip so that is why I referenced that gang, without specifying which gang. Also, the guy @oneniltothearsenal was the first in this thread to compare less fortunate black kids in the 90's in America to these little racist nerds. So my point was the hypocrisy in values on the view of race. I think you should apply your values to all humans. Giving one guy the benefit of doubt but not the other based on a preconceived notion is what gets me.
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I didn’t overanalyse anything, it’s pretty clear that your point could’ve been made without referencing race - it’s literally that simple.
I didn’t insult you in any way, I even think the foundations of your point make sense - when you take away race. By adding in race, it implies that black people and gangs are synonymous, which is problematic - that’s all.
If you wanted to reference the Crips, you could’ve done that, but no you honed in specifically on black people and even now I don’t think you see the issue with what you said and admitting it was a conscious decision to do that, makes it worse actually - I’m not trying to expose anything about you sir.
 
Vato said:
That's the thing we're discussing you condescending clown. Do they all have a history of racist behaviour or are we happy to consider the ones who don't, to be collateral damage just for our need to satiate our thirst for blood? I know you are but I'm wondering about the average person in this thread.
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yes their peers, including one of the people in the photo who didn't participate in the salute because he's not a racist have said the school is rotten to the core and racism is openly tolerated because the majority of students are racist scumbags
 
villain said:
I didn’t overanalyse anything, it’s pretty clear that your point could’ve been made without referencing race - it’s literally that simple.
I didn’t insult you in any way, I even think the foundations of your point make sense - when you take away race. By adding in race, it implies that black people and gangs are synonymous, which is problematic - that’s all.
If you wanted to reference the Crips, you could’ve done that, but no you honed in specifically on black people and even now I don’t think you see the issue with what you said and admitting it was a conscious decision to do that, makes it worse actually - I’m not trying to expose anything about you sir.
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Yeah, but I didn't make the point to you specifically, I made it to some guy referencing black people. I didn't imply black people are the only one in gangs like you suggested, that is silly. So if you have a problem with the part about race then go talk to him about it. Take away the point about race and I have no problems with that guys posts and wouldn't have made that point.:wenger:
 
MikeKing said:
I made it to some guy referencing black people. I didn't imply black people are the only one in gangs like you suggested, that is silly.
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Faetheshire86 said:
"Stand here. Squeeze closer together. Raise your right arm at 45 degrees. Say cheese".

Not saying this is what happened, but it's completely possible to be an "innocent participant" in raising your arm up like this. You should check out some social conformity experiments, they could be pretty eye opening.

I'd go so far as to say that the instructions could have been "Let's do a Nazi salute to show the world we are all Nazi's" and there would still be kind, decent, impressionable people who would participate.
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berbatrick said:
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MikeKing said:
Ok. So that last tweet supposedly proves someone made them all throw it up, and brags about even making a black kid do it? Who does that?

I'd go so far as to say that the instructions could have been "Let's do a Nazi salute to show the world we are all Nazi's" and there would still be kind, decent, impressionable people who would participate.
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I just don't think he gets it. It is like gang-culture, its not like all black people who join gangs are savages at first and he should know this, but I guess he couldn't have empathy with them because "they are just criminals" in a gang.
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uhuh
 
Do you have a point here @Silva or are you just feeling clever by being this obtuse:lol:
 
What in the world are you talking about man? Are you on drugs?
 
MikeKing said:
What in the world are you talking about man? Are you on drugs?
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you saw a post with the words "black kid" in it and your first thought was to talk about gangs with someone else smart guy

then you tried to lie about it in at attempt to prove you're definitely not a racist because of your crips friend
 
Silva said:
you saw a post with the words "black kid" in it and your first thought was to talk about gangs with someone else smart guy

then you tried to lie about it in at attempt to prove you're definitely not a racist because of your crips friend
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You might no be in a gang, I don't know, but I do know you are a lost cause. Bye
 
MikeKing said:
Yeah, but I didn't make the point to you specifically, I made it to some guy referencing black people. I didn't imply black people are the only one in gangs like you suggested, that is silly. So if you have a problem with the part about race then go talk to him about it. Take away the point about race and I have no problems with that guys posts and wouldn't have made that point.:wenger:
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Yeah I’ve read through the interactions in this thread, and I’m still failing to see where or why you felt the need to specifically point out black people joining gangs, even if someone else mentioned race before you did.
You were the one brought up gangs, and you were the one who decided to single out race as part of that.

Either way, I think you either have a problem with me, are incredibly stubborn, lack understanding about the problem here or a combination of those three.
But it’s not my issue, I just thought it was interesting that you made that leap given the context of the wider discussion. I didn’t think you were racist or insulting at all, to begin with at least.
 
berbatrick said:
I kindof agree with this post, and maybe it's because watching the worst parts of reddit and skewed my mind, but do you think sincerity and truth will work on them? This photo apparently isn't a one-off, they have been racist in other contexts for years and been indulged in that behaviour(culminating in the photo). Speaking to survivors or visiting museums would just be another opportunity to troll.
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It's a maybe. It's a question the school, and society at large, is obligated to answer.

Or we can sweep them under the rug and assume racism will die off with the baby boomer generation. It's worked well over the past 2 years, hasn't it?

oneniltothearsenal said:
Oh you got this one backwards. This is just a wrong comment.

I went to community college. I got into the University of my choice that I never would have got into without because I worked hard in community college. I love community college. It offers second, third and even fourth chances to people who might have made all sorts of other decisions earlier that either positive or negatively affected their ability to goto university. They offer great opportunities and should be in every region. I strongly support funding for community colleges across the country. The point is anyone losing a university opportunity due to clear emotional immaturity can strongly benefit from simply attending community college. Its not a big deal for anyone to go through community instead of directly in University and shouldn't carry any silly stigmas like your comments here. Especially because transfer students typical outperform straight university students anyway at least when I was there that was the case.
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I went to community college as well. It's awesome for those who know what they want to get out of it. But there is a reason why community college graduation + transfer rates don't exceed graduation rates at 4 year colleges and universities. The education and support and community isn't as strong.

Plus, if you think community colleges are awesome (I think they are), why would you be in support of them not attending Uni, but attending a community college? Then what's the point? That was what drove my initial statement regarding using them as a C-option for those kids.

oneniltothearsenal said:
Did you not read my longer post? Let me summarize my point:

A student's admission into the university is conditional on the student maintaining the academic standard and following the University's Code of Conduct otherwise the University reserves the right to rescind admission. Arguing that these kids shouldn't lose a college admission or scholarship is, by default, arguing for special treatment because other violations of the university and scholarship Codes of Conduct do not get exceptions so why should this get an exception?
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If my Uni had a video feed into my (dickish) behavior during senior year I would have been permanently banned from the campus.

That's not equating normal dickish behavior of teens with racist behavior. But looking at the frat scene, and general immaturity and problematic behavior of freshmen across the country, that right to rescind admission is rarely used. And I think that is a net benefit. There is a general transformation, for good, that occurs during those 4 years of being exposed to a wider slice of society. And for the bad eggs that are truly bad eggs, they get expelled eventually.

Again, would it have really hurt for the school to have done a deep corrective dive with these students, set right the misguided ones, and flame the actual Nazi kids that truly believe that shit, and wouldn't be swayed otherwise? But that's too much nuance I think. Cancel them. And then what, do we expect them with their problematic behaviors to just, disappear into the ether?
 
villain said:
Yeah I’ve read through the interactions in this thread, and I’m still failing to see where or why you felt the need to specifically point out black people joining gangs, even if someone else mentioned race before you did.
You were the one brought up gangs, and you were the one who decided to single out race as part of that.

Either way, I think you either have a problem with me, are incredibly stubborn, lack understanding about the problem here or a combination of those three.
But it’s not my issue, I just thought it was interesting that you made that leap given the context of the wider discussion. I didn’t think you were racist or insulting at all, to begin with at least.
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What does he have to write exactly : Latino/black/Asian?. It seems logical that he refers to blacks because that's what the tweet says.The tweet is not talking about a mexicano. In what sentence did he say that only the black join gangs?
You do not think he´s racist but you point to something that has nothing to do with the thread.
 
MikeKing said:
@villain You are overanalysing and overrate your own ability to read how other people minds work. I won't take this any further as it is really silly now, and moves too far from any topic relevant. I respect your viewpoint and learned that the word savage is connected to black people as you told me, I think that is racist to connect them, but I will try to think about it in that way to avoid misunderstandings later. But no It was very much a conscious decision to pick a certain group for reference and example. It was very random in fact, and there isn't some grand meaning you are exposing. Sorry.


That is fair enough. I honestly didn't mean any harm, it was totally random. I'm a bit interested in gang-culture and I know a lot of people view all members as lost causes, and I recently learned some inside information from a Crip so that is why I referenced that gang, without specifying which gang. Also, the guy @oneniltothearsenal was the first in this thread to compare less fortunate black kids in the 90's in America to these little racist nerds. So my point was the hypocrisy in values on the view of race. I think you should apply your values to all humans. Giving one guy the benefit of doubt but not the other based on a preconceived notion is what gets me.
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What post are you talking about ?

You started your first reply to me with ""i havent read all the posts in this thread" so I stopped taking you seriously because you were already missing the point with your first reply.
 
carvajal said:
What does he have to write exactly : Latino/black/Asian?. It seems logical that he refers to blacks because that's what the tweet says.The tweet is not talking about a mexicano. In what sentence did he say that only the black join gangs?
You do not think he´s racist but you point to something that has nothing to do with the thread.
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The tweet said ‘even the black kid joined in’ the reasoning behind his message was ‘anybody can participate in something if everyone else is doing the same thing’. For him to use people joining gangs as a relevant example, actually makes sense.
Singling our black people who join gangs doesn’t make sense, because the same group-think logic can be applied to anyone who joins a gang - hence, the use of race was not necessary in his example, as I’ve said about 5 times now.
 
adexkola said:
I went to community college as well. It's awesome for those who know what they want to get out of it. But there is a reason why community college graduation + transfer rates don't exceed graduation rates at 4 year colleges and universities. The education and support and community isn't as strong.

Plus, if you think community colleges are awesome (I think they are), why would you be in support of them not attending Uni, but attending a community college? Then what's the point? That was what drove my initial statement regarding using them as a C-option for those kids.


If my Uni had a video feed into my (dickish) behavior during senior year I would have been permanently banned from the campus.

That's not equating normal dickish behavior of teens with racist behavior. But looking at the frat scene, and general immaturity and problematic behavior of freshmen across the country, that right to rescind admission is rarely used. And I think that is a net benefit. There is a general transformation, for good, that occurs during those 4 years of being exposed to a wider slice of society. And for the bad eggs that are truly bad eggs, they get expelled eventually.

Again, would it have really hurt for the school to have done a deep corrective dive with these students, set right the misguided ones, and flame the actual Nazi kids that truly believe that shit, and wouldn't be swayed otherwise? But that's too much nuance I think. Cancel them. And then what, do we expect them with their problematic behaviors to just, disappear into the ether?
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I already addressed this angle:

(As an admissions officer or scholarship decider) The choice isn't as simple as just making a decision about these students in a bubble because the decision affects other students. So the question as an admissions officer wouldn't just be what is fair to Baraboo Nazi salute student but what is fair to another 10 students applying for admission as well. Is it fair to those other students if I simple overlook this incident and not take it into account? Personally I don't think that would be fair to other students applying for admission or scholarships to pretend this didn't happen or not take it into account. Personally I don't think it would be fair to wait list student #1 for me not to rescind admission to someone nazi saluting even if they were "just a follow".
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I already addressed this angle:

(As an admissions officer or scholarship decider) The choice isn't as simple as just making a decision about these students in a bubble because the decision affects other students. So the question as an admissions officer wouldn't just be what is fair to Baraboo Nazi salute student but what is fair to another 10 students applying for admission as well. Is it fair to those other students if I simple overlook this incident and not take it into account? Personally I don't think that would be fair to other students applying for admission or scholarships to pretend this didn't happen or not take it into account. Personally I don't think it would be fair to wait list student #1 for me not to rescind admission to someone nazi saluting even if they were "just a follow".
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Are you solely concerned about students on the wait list, entering this thread? If so, fair enough. I don't think admission lists should be scrubbed of students with blemish for the benefit of those on the wait list. Actual Nazis? Sure. However, that decision should be made after consultation with a guidance counselor. Not on the basis of social media posts. And not with a broad brush. Education isn't a privilege.

If you're debating on the hill of Universities reserving that right you're missing the point, but this thread been derailed so I'm cool.
 
adexkola said:
Are you solely concerned about students on the wait list, entering this thread? If so, fair enough. I don't think admission lists should be scrubbed of students with blemish for the benefit of those on the wait list. Actual Nazis? Sure. However, that decision should be made after consultation with a guidance counselor. Not on the basis of social media posts. And not with a broad brush. Education isn't a privilege.

If you're debating on the hill of Universities reserving that right you're missing the point, but this thread been derailed so I'm cool.
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Admissions officers don't have the time to consult with a guidance counselor these days and as mentioned how could a counselor at this school even be trusted. And why should an admissions officer talk to one of these kids counselors if they aren't talking to dozens of their competitors counselors? Again it seems like you are arguing for these kids getting special treatment.

Anyway I made my point. Absolutely nothing wrong with rescinding or rejecting admission to university or scholarships based on this photo. If I was an admissions officer I would definitely prefer to take someone who did not have these troubling issues and concerns. If I am deciding between one of these kids and someone else who might have a .1 lower GPA then I am taking the kid with the lower GPA who hasn't demonstrated character flaws. In fact I would consider myself negligent in my duty to the public if I accepted one of these kids for a scholarship and had to reject other more deserving kids.
 
villain said:
The tweet said ‘even the black kid joined in’ the reasoning behind his message was ‘anybody can participate in something if everyone else is doing the same thing’. For him to use people joining gangs as a relevant example, actually makes sense.
Singling our black people who join gangs doesn’t make sense, because the same group-think logic can be applied to anyone who joins a gang - hence, the use of race was not necessary in his example, as I’ve said about 5 times now.
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Maybe the use is not necessary, but I do not see that it is so inappropriate.
If you start with "The subconscious is really showing here",you are indirectly taunting him as a racist.
I think it's a bit farfetched.
 
carvajal said:
Maybe the use is not necessary, but I do not see that it is so inappropriate.
If you start with "The subconscious is really showing here",you are indirectly taunting him as a racist.
I think it's a bit farfetched.
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I don’t think he did it intentionally, or with the intent to cause harm or offend, nor do I think he actually understood the implication- which is why I said the subconscious is showing because I think it was such an interesting thing to say innocuously. But he said he said it consciously, and therefore intentionally - so I was wrong on that front.
 
This will be my last post. I'll make it real clear so hopefully no more misunderstandings are in order.
My main views on this topic has only been that it is horrible and should be investigated and treated with attention, so that more schools get their ethics in order and that we hopefully can put an end to such toxic environments in school. It is beyond just the participants of the school as I tried proving with the point that It might be a suppressed gay kid in that picture throwing that sign up for a moment to fit in. That would be an example of an innocent participant trapped in an environment that needs to change, so that he himself can express what he likes, not what they all expect from him (which obviously is casual racism and joking about nazism)

To brush all these kids under one rug and not consider what I'm talking about because of the immediate disgust of that salute and throw all these kids in the same category publicly on forums and on the internet is hypocritical if you perceive you values to be rock solid on other issues. It seems to be discomforting for some to challenge themselves on their view, because of the nasty associations with the symbol these kids used in that picture, but it is the same line of thinking that a lot of people use to judge actual victims of society like black people (as an example) where it isn't only about a kid smoking weed getting locked up hindering his collage entry, but it could even be a gang-member that has killed people and most people wouldn't empathise with guys like that. They are all viewed as monsters/savages down the line, but at a young age a lot of impressionable people get caught up when they could have avoided it if people cared the right way.

Personally I love to hate on shitkids like this purely because they looks like spoiled rich assholes to be, but they are humans and reading about the racist behavioural issues in that school sickens me. To be that kid everyone has decided is racist bigot because he was on that picture, while inside he is completely innocent can't be fun. Getting outed in papers and on the internet I'll say is sort of ok as long as any witch hunting of these individuals isn't going on and doesn't follow them around for years stopping them from even getting jobs. To say "they will be fine" is ignorant at best. Psychological issues might follow them around for being publicly dismissed after deemed racists. And I'm talking here about the innocent participants and not the main culprits who take advantage of the poor school environment to manifest racism there.

This is the the first post I made and the reply from @oniltothearsenal who spouted some nonsense early on, this is what got me involved along to begin with.

I think the greater issue is that the school allowed systemic racism and homophobia for years, culminating in that shitshow of a photo.
If anything, the principle and administrators need firing.
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This exactly. Kids at that age does stupid shit, but when they are kids the responsibility isn't only on them. To ruin the careers of all the guys in the picture is silly as it seems a systematic problem. I mean, why are they all smiling:lol: Says about what has been going on in that school when the dynamic of such a large group finds its collective spirit of happiness and bonding through a Nazi-salute. Funny photo huh? One guy puts his hand up and the rest follows to get rid of the awkwardness. Yeah, that is a group problem, change the whole school over there.

I'll bet the kid in the middle and the other richlooking shitkid left of him is the main culprits, and their dads. Feel sorry for all the other pieces of shit:lol:Its fun to hate on shitkids, but ruining all of the people in the picture by fecking up their work situation is too much jesus.
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oneniltothearsenal said:
Don't worry, unlike 18 year old minorities who got caught smoking a joint in the 1990s, none of these poor, under-privileged, unfairly victimized beautiful boys will face any actual career penalties. They will quite easily plug into the Tucker Carlson/Hannity/Fox/Right Wing networks and be hailed as Champions of Free Speech.

I am sure these unfortunate, struggling yet clearly noble youth appreciate your concern for their earning potential. You are a true man of charity
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africanspur said:
Completely agree that they'll do just fine, unlike many of their non white colleagues who end up getting chewed up in the system.

For people saying just a slap on the wrist would do, these are just silly teens doing silly teen things..What would you think if this was a group of Muslim boys holding up....I don't know...an ISIS flag? Who swore it was nothing but a joke after? Would it also be ok to just give them a quick telling off? Or would you want something more?

Not to mention the pretty appalling systemic issues that seem to be coming out about this school.
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@africanspur @villain As you see, It isn't me who started talking about race. The posts and more early on in this thread were also partly the reason I chose to use black people joining gangs in the example, even though I very well could have used another group of people too as I'm fully aware there are a lot of different gangs. It really doesn't matter in the context of what I was trying to say, but the most relevant to earlier posts would be to use black people who join gangs as an example of people being segregated from society early on despite some of them being good people. This has been tedious. I'm out

And just if anyone got confused by that nutter earlier saying I pretended to be a gang affiliated, I don't. I merely said I've recently learned about some inside information about gangs from a Crip. Come to think of it, it was also a Blood giving out some real interesting perspectives. Youtube is a great thing, you can learn a lot.
 
adexkola said:
I'm glad you've explicitly stated it because now I'm sure I get what you're saying.

Again, thank goodness I wasn't a kid in this era.
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You would prefer to be a kid in a previous era where college admissions got rescinded or rejected over pranks much more innocent than this stunt? Or when minorities were blatantly discriminated against from elite universities?

There is a big picture here that I think you are completely missing. College admissions and scholarships make decisions between students all the time. Kids get admitted or win or lose scholarships by much finer margins than a Nazi salute every year. You seem to be suggesting admissions or scholarship officers shouldn't take this into account at all. That is missing the big picture that decisions get made on much more innocuous or even random factors than this. Its perfectly valid for admissions to take something like this into account and reject an admission based on stupid and offensive behavior like this.

I think its more dangerous and harmful for society to suggest admissions officers must ignore incidents like this in making decisions on admissions and scholarships.

MikeKing said:
This is the the first post I made and the reply from @oniltothearsenal who spouted some nonsense early on, this is what got me involved along to begin with.
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Your first post admitted "I haven't read all the posts," and then you proceeded to prove you haven't read by missing the point of my argument and strawmanning.
 
Silva said:
:lol:
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You really think I am a racist who tried to excuse that by making up a lie about me hearing about some juicy stuff first hand from a secret crip. You have spent too much time on the internet if that is how your mind reads into things. Get your third eye checked before you turn completely insane.
Or stop trolling if thats your thing, if you think you are being funny, you really isn't that.
 
MikeKing said:
You really think I am a racist who tried to excuse that by making up a lie about me hearing about some juicy stuff first hand from a secret crip. You have spent too much time on the internet if that is how your mind reads into things. Get your third eye checked before you turn completely insane.
Or stop trolling if thats your thing, if you think you are being funny, you really isn't that.
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i think it's hilarious that the things minorities and disenfranchised communities have been screaming for decades are inside information you got from the crips and bloods on youtube
 
Silva said:
i think it's hilarious that the things minorities and disenfranchised communities have been screaming for decades
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Good to know that the pain of others is a source of entertainment to you and not worth taking seriously. I suggest you read up on some stuff before you make fun of the opinions of gangmembers.
 
I don't think you have any points other than to derail this thread. What is your fascination with me, you've been taking snide shots, twisted and mocked what I have contributed to this thread all the while said nothing of interest yourself. Why do you want to derail the thread, what do you want from me?
 
MikeKing said:
I don't think you have any points other than to derail this thread. What is your fascination with me, you've been taking snide shots, twisted and mocked what I have contributed to this thread all the while said nothing of interest yourself. Why do you want to derail the thread, what do you want from me?
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i'm just holding up a mirror my man, if you want people not to treat you like a moron, don't go around telling people they're worthless and stupid while posting stupid things
 
You wrote a long post just to basically say that because other people mentioned institutionalised minorities - of all races - that meant that you singling our black people as gang members, somehow makes sense.
I’m not even sure where or why this hypothetical ‘repressed gay kid’ fits into all of this, nor what his hypothetical sexual orientation has to do with not being part of the core social group at all - it seems like another unnecessary comment being included part of your wider reasoning.

At this point it’s clear that you don’t actually see any issue with what you said, or you don’t comprehend what it is I’m trying to convey to you - and that’s fine. @MikeKing
 
I swear 75% of threads in the current events forum end up the same way
 
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