Indeed... Similarly I'm sure the brexiteers will briefly love the European courts if they declare UK can't unilaterally revoke article 50
(Yet are aghast at the fact we Won't be able to revoke the backstop unilaterally)
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
(Yet are aghast at the fact we Won't be able to revoke the backstop unilaterally)
The worst nightmare of all worst nightmares, Bojo, Davis and Mogg running the country
The worst nightmare of all worst nightmares, Bojo, Davis and Mogg running the country
End Times stuff.
"Secret talks" 
The worst nightmare of all worst nightmares, Bojo, Davis and Mogg running the country
The optimistic side of me hope it happens, we do Brexit for a week, everyone realises how shit it is, and the EU readmit us on the same terms.
People who support remaining within the EU didn't vote Lib Dem for a multitude of reasons: the fact they're quite right-wing economically, the fact they screwed over students when in the coalition, and due to the fact they just weren't very good at campaigning last year, somehow managing to get outflanked by the fecking Tories on LGBT rights due to Farron. This is (again) a fairly selective point anyway though because if you're arguing the Lib Dems doing poorly is a reason not to go against Brexit then I could easily argue that Labour were daft for sticking with Corbyn between 2015 and 2017 (until the election) when he was generally polling poorly. Again - the point of politics is largely to convince the voting public that your own stance is right. Corbyn's generally done that, and it's why the left like him. Why's it suddenly the case that polling matters more on Brexit than it did on a whole array of other matters where Tory policies or ideas were often winning out?
The EU isn't left-wing but then unless we want to feck things up in Northern Ireland we're basically going to maintain a fairly similar relationship with them, but just without the perks that membership brings. If you want to drive the EU to the left then I'd argue the best way to do that is by getting left-wing parties across Europe to work together with the aim of making Brussels more left-wing. If left-wing parties actually focus on the EU election, there's no reason this can't happen. We're going to be closely tied to them anyway: it makes sense to try and work toward a more left-wing society within that framework instead of pretending we don't have to work closely with countries with whom we'll continue trading heavily with. The left probably had some solid arguments against the EU historically but that boat has passed now and we've moved toward a more globalised society anyway. That's not going to change.
Anyone been following Carol Cadwallader's exploits on Twitter?
We need a Mueller style investigation into Banks, Farage, Bannon, Mercers, et al.
We need a Mueller style investigation into Banks, Farage, Bannon, Mercers, et al.
I agree with your worries tbf. I just think something so deliberately polarising as a referendum, on something so fundamental to a country as how it functions legally, politically and economically, is always going to lead to the kind of ructions and ridiculousness that we have now. We're 6 months from leaving and it gets worse by the week.
I realise you're likely thinking of Scotland and that it would make independence that much harder, and it's an interesting case given the SNP are literally a party founded upon the idea and had won parliamentary elections multiple times before the vote. It's tough to strike a balance, but it just seems to me that the current way of doing it is insane
The Scotland case is obviously interesting, although not necessarily my only reason for being wary of the two-thirds approach for referendums. I'd also argue secession from a country is generally a unique case: with any other subject, if people want a referendum then can ultimately vote in a party who promises one; with a country breaking away that's not necessarily possible if the country in question doesn't make up a majority of its sovereign state.
Ultimately I think a significant part of the problem is that referendums should ideally be largely unnecessary in parliamentary democracies. In a way you could argue elections should almost be seen as referendums in their own unique way: if people wanted us to leave the EU, for example, then they should have voted for a party whose manifesto explicitly included that desire to leave. Things like electoral reform could be viewed through a similar lens: if it's something you really want then you should vote for a party who promises to implement it, and if you can't do that then the issue may not be important enough for you anyway. Obviously it doesn't really work like that, but to an extent there is arguably a silliness in holding referendums concerning big political decisions for the country when we elect our MP's for that specific purpose.
What was the sample size of the Channel 4 poll?
Somebody mentioned the possibility of simply revoking article 50. I was reply to that.
The worst nightmare of all worst nightmares, Bojo, Davis and Mogg running the country
This can't just happen, and the tory government would reject it anyway. Silly article.
20,000 so it was the biggest independent poll on Brexit although it asked people online.
Tories having a trio of Boris, Davis and Mogg is a surefire way of losing the next GE.
Thanks.
We whinged about her interference at the time because her intent was to try and stop brexit. However, the irony of ensuring that the article 50 bill had to pass through parliament meant that it would became law for the UK to leave the EU in March 2019 if the bill passed. It did pass, and it means there can be no reversal. So her attempt to stop it, led to it being sealed by law.
Cameron included an EU referendum in his manifesto in order to win over UKIP voters and get a majority government. He then had to deliver on it.
Isn't that pretty much what we've got now? I'm sure if any European country came under attack then there would be a significant number of countries stepping in to help, whether that country was in the EU or not.
Without structure and coordination armies are very ineffective.
If you add 27 countries and languages, it is actually quite complicated.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...e-things-weve-learned-about-public-opinion-br
There really Isn't a clear way forwards
Perhaps we should just build a wall down the middle of the country... The west stays in Europe and the east leaves with no deal... And people move where they want... Yes it's impractical unworkable in reality and would be unpopular... But looking at those polls so is
2nd referendum (which looks unlikely to deliver anything other than a very close result)
Staying in the EU
Leaving with this deal
Renegotiation of the deal
And no deal
I recall reading the Republic by Plato and him saying democracy is doomed to fail
Might have been onto something as it does seem fertile ground for some despotic populist (a UK trump if you will) to come to power
There really Isn't a clear way forwards
Perhaps we should just build a wall down the middle of the country... The west stays in Europe and the east leaves with no deal... And people move where they want... Yes it's impractical unworkable in reality and would be unpopular... But looking at those polls so is
2nd referendum (which looks unlikely to deliver anything other than a very close result)
Staying in the EU
Leaving with this deal
Renegotiation of the deal
And no deal
I recall reading the Republic by Plato and him saying democracy is doomed to fail
Might have been onto something as it does seem fertile ground for some despotic populist (a UK trump if you will) to come to power
Every day. Throw Andrew Neil in to that list too
'It’s a fudge – not what we voted for': the Brexit view from Shropshire ~
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ZKHGQLU7Dzl4SMXy_tn8hjeMwdBKV9Q4yV7OvNT5NzVoI
The default language in NATO is of course English and to be fair working with them I have never encountered any issues in co-ordinating things... Not to say it can't happen and it couldbt be better but in my experience the structure there works well
I do wonder though in an EU army... And intact in EU institutions in general when (if?) The UK leaves will they start to have french fr German as the primary communication language?
Turbulent week ahead possibly. Looks like May could be hit with a vote of no confidence tomorrow, but if she manages to ride it she cant be hit with another one for a year. The Brexit deal is widely expected to be rejected in the commons, and its probable that the DUP will withdraw their support, leaving the tories without a majority government. Tories reportedly do not expect to win an election with May as leader (believable), which makes me wonder if she will have lost her governments backing by the end of the week. Lots of ifs and buts, but I think she's finished.
The problem with that is that it assumes that the EU would be willing to renegotiate. I think patience on that side of the border is running thin
In my opinion the UK should ask the EU if and in what terms the UK will be in if they decide not to leave the EU. Then a second referendum should be set offering the following
A- No deal brexit
B- leaving the EU on the deal negotiated by TM
C- staying in the EU on the conditions discussed and agreed upon with the EU
English isn't necessarily the primary language in EU insitutions, for example the ECJ works in french.
3 options....
Just hypothetical
33%,32%35%
65% have voted Leave and we remain... Seems unlikely they would offer 3 votes And if they did I guess it might have to be single transferable vote
I honestly think leave with no deal then start to negotiate seems the most likley... It's a rubbish solution but given the timescales and a lack of clear direction (from the UK side) it seems the most likley
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Second EU referendum 'not an option for today', says Jeremy Corbyn
https://news.sky.com/story/second-eu-referendum-not-an-option-for-today-says-jeremy-corbyn-11557192
As close as you are going to get to a answer to a second referendum from Corbyn.
https://news.sky.com/story/second-eu-referendum-not-an-option-for-today-says-jeremy-corbyn-11557192
As close as you are going to get to a answer to a second referendum from Corbyn.
I know he says he wants a ge and that is labour policy
Fair enough... They might be one called in a few weeks
So fundamental question... Would a 2nd referendum be in labours manifesto
I suspect as he won't even say how he would vote he's just going to avoid giving an opinion...
Straight forward honest politics indeed
To be honest, a second referendum will never pass parliament until it becomes clear we are crashing out.
Yeah, she's surely done for. Will be replaced by a Brexiteer, who will then push ahead with 'no deal' (no time to start negotiations from scratch). Said Brexiteer will then blame the ensuing chaos on the EU.
Honestly I think the EU is way better off without the UK so no 'nice try' at all. I only listed all the options the UK has at the moment.
Crashing out without a deal would be devastating for the UK. It would put them into such desperate situation that they would sign anything thrown at them to get out of the situation they will be in. Brexiteers would be mad to go for it.
2 questions:
-Stay or leave?
-If leave vote wins then, with deal or not?
Why the feck are you guys struggling with the questions?
The EU isn't better off without us, and TM's deal is not an option, as it will be rejected by just about everyone.
Two leave options and one remain option. Pretty obvious what the percentages would favour.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...erendum-is-for-future-not-today-idUSKCN1NN09B
Corbyn is a full on Brexiteer and anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.
Corbyn is a full on Brexiteer and anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.
Read the edit which makes it clear (as I knew I'd need to based on caftards inability to read posts and infer intended meaning)
Two leave options and one remain option. Pretty obvious what the percentages would favour.
The second vote is used if leave wins. It's not 3 options FFS. It's clarification on leave...
You vote for yes or no. And then you vote for what would happen if leave wins.
For you that would be leave, leave with no deal.
For me that would be remain, leave with deal.
So why is it a nice try if you think no one would go for Mays deal, therefore no split vote?
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Read the edit which makes it clear (as I knew I'd need to
You vote for yes or no. And then you vote for what would happen if leave wins.
For you that would be leave, leave with no deal.
For me that would be remain, leave with deal.
So why is it a nice try if you think no one go for Mays deal, therefore no split vote?
It wasn't needed, your booleans were on point.
I thought so too but I'm half sleep and this is redcafe...