Wisconsin teens participate in Nazi salute

Carolina Red said:
Ignore it? They took the picture and put it on the Internet. The cat is out of the bag.
Click to expand...

Well, one of them did. Are they speaking for the others?

Cheesy said:
Surely they both go together? Someone who's got a history of actually being racist might just not be joking when they use a racist symbol. Again, I get that we don't want to ruin the lives of those who did this. But the weird need for people to jump to the defence of the people acting like Nazis in this case, when there's evidence of said people being racist is...bizarre. To say the least. There's a balance to be struck, yeah, but these kids aren't unfortunate victims.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.

As I said, to me it seems like the work of a few kids who like edgy shock humour than the calculated act of 30-odd racists.

And you can opine that throwing every single person to the wolves regardless of intent is a bad thing, whilst at the same time being on the side of punishing racial abuse. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive, but it’s typical I guess to try and paint these matters as black and white. Even so, not everyone who isn’t asking for these kids to be burned at the stake based solely on a photo is on the side of the Nazis.
 
2 man midfield said:
Not necessarily.

As I said, to me it seems like the work of a few kids who like edgy shock humour than the calculated act of 30-odd racists.

And you can opine that throwing every single person to the wolves regardless of intent is a bad thing, whilst at the same time being on the side of punishing racial abuse. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive, but it’s typical I guess to try and paint these matters as black and white. Even so, not everyone who isn’t asking for these kids to be burned at the stake is on the side of the Nazis.
Click to expand...

They probably aren't all racists but it seems fairly evident that some of them are, hence a lot of the concern over this. I'm not saying it's black-and-white either - I've said myself I don't think the lives of those involved should be ruined, and provided they're punished properly and rehabilitated, I'd extend that even to the most callous of those involved. I'd argue that's quite balanced. The need of some to defend said perpetrators though (and it's often quite predictable as to who will do so) is fairly bizarre. The first thought of anyone who looks at that photo surely shouldn't be "I hope the people who did this are okay" but instead concern for those who're potentially impacted by people who sympathise with Nazi-style beliefs. Especially once the context behind the story is revealed...in a country no less that's been sliding more and more to the hard-right in recent years, with a President currently who either espouses such rhetoric himself or comes up with shite excuses for those who do so.
 
Cheesy said:
They probably aren't all racists but it seems fairly evident that some of them are, hence a lot of the concern over this. I'm not saying it's black-and-white either - I've said myself I don't think the lives of those involved should be ruined, and provided they're punished properly and rehabilitated, I'd extend that even to the most callous of those involved. I'd argue that's quite balanced. The need of some to defend said perpetrators though (and it's often quite predictable as to who will do so) is fairly bizarre. The first thought of anyone who looks at that photo surely shouldn't be "I hope the people who did this are okay" but instead concern for those who're potentially impacted by people who sympathise with Nazi-style beliefs. Especially once the context behind the story is revealed...in a country no less that's been sliding more and more to the hard-right in recent years, with a President currently who either espouses such rhetoric himself or comes up with shite excuses for those who do so.
Click to expand...
It depends on your priority I guess. If literally your first thought when seeing that is for the people in the photo and how you hope they can deflect the vitriol then yeah, that’s a worrying mindset.

But if like me, you just didn’t laugh at their attempt at humour, before then reading that half the internet wants their entire future employment prospects destroyed, then yeah you start questioning whether it’s all a bit much. As I said before, I think some perspective is needed.
 
Carolina Red said:
What does that matter?

My point is: It is out there forever now. It can’t be ignored.
Click to expand...
Well I’m assuming one idiot is proud of himself, but that doesn’t mean the others are. Not all of the people in that photo are as guilty as eachother, imo.
 
2 man midfield said:
Well I’m assuming one idiot is proud of himself, but that doesn’t mean the others are. Not all of the people in that photo are as guilty as eachother, imo.
Click to expand...
Obviously. Not all of them did the salute.

Besides that, of the ones who did, well... tons of folks feel ashamed after they’ve been caught.
 
Carolina Red said:
Obviously. Not all of them did the salute.

Besides that, of the ones who did, well... tons of folks feel ashamed after they’ve been caught.
Click to expand...
What would you like to see happen to those doing the salute in the photo?
 
2 man midfield said:
What would you like to see happen to those doing the salute in the photo?
Click to expand...
From page 8...
Carolina Red said:
2) Of those that are... I’m of the opinion that they should be at the very least suspended, and that it put on their permanent record, which will be accessed when they apply to college. I am also of the opinion that any college they’ve applied to apply the code of conduct standards to that image when deciding on whether or not to accept them.
Click to expand...
 
Carolina Red said:
Understand this... I’ve seen kids expelled for stacking gang signs.

That’s why I said “at the very least”.
Click to expand...

That in isolation got them expelled?

If that’s true then that’s ridiculous.
 
Carolina Red said:
Doing stupid things at school functions has consequences.
Click to expand...
Yeah, so kick them out of the school function. Don’t deny them an education because their fingers didn’t make the shapes you’d prefer them to.
 
2 man midfield said:
Yeah, so kick them out of the school function. Don’t deny them an education because their fingers didn’t make the shapes you’d prefer them to.
Click to expand...
They were in a gang. They displayed it at school. They got kicked out.

Folks should be more careful about the hand gestures they make if they don’t want consequences.
 
Carolina Red said:
They were in a gang. They displayed it at school. They got kicked out.

Folks should be more careful about the hand gestures they make if they don’t want consequences.
Click to expand...
So what if they’re in a gang? It seems very harsh to kick them out for it.

I agree with the second paragraph, it’s just the severity of those consequences where people differ. I doubt you’ll find many arguing they’re angels. I agree with a suspension anyway.
 
2 man midfield said:
That’s the thing. Who the feck knows what certain students there believe? I’d rather ignore the attempt at bad humour and actually deal with the confirmed cases of racist abuse. That’s surely the bigger issue here. Actual people have been racially abused, why isn’t the focus on that instead of some idiots trying to be funny by sticking their hands up?



It’s not a very accurate policy though is it, when deciding whose lives to ruin? He/she may or may not have some of these thoughts so let’s just throw them all on the fire.

We should start with the school. Find out who racially abused who and why the feck nothing got done about it.
Click to expand...
I was a terrible racist shit in my mid to late teens (fortunately, I never subjected anyone to any kind of abuse), and I turned into an SJW. I know that their personalities and behaviors are not set in stone, and condemning their futures over this is extremely harsh. But they should see consequences for it, and if a result of this is every single person in that picture not getting into their first choice school, then I'm fine with that.

But I was mostly pushing back against the idea that this was just a bad joke, and that it should be treated as such.
 
Prometheus said:
Why do you think that's? And which do you think currently poses a bigger threat to America: right-wing extremism or ISIS? I also find it baffling that you didn't find what the kids did concerning, but you complained about political correctness.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I don't know which poses a bigger threat to America. But for which would get the most attention, that comes down to a few things. First being that the media loves love a good terrorist story, it ticks all the news values and they love stirring the pot, so they would never turn down an opportunity to milk a localised terror story. Secondly, and I am stepping into speculative territory here, I think people tend to enjoy hating on something in unison, and what unites people more than terrorism? And yes, right wing extremism can be associated with terrorism but the term has become more synonymous with the middle east, ISIS etc., over recent years. I suppose foreign terrorists are more attractive than local ones when it comes to a good social media explosion. Well that's just two things, but I think the first point is important here.

As for the kids, I just can't see past them simply fooling around. I won't comment further with any hard opnion as I haven't read all of the details and will just end up tripping up somewhere again, but if what people are saying about racism being a prominent issue at their school is true, then I would be concerned, even if the teachers would be to blame as Arruda suggested, the kids might have had that ideology hammered into their heads and if this were the case then the reprecussions are perhaps acceptable, at least in terms of university scholarship revocation which was my main gripe. But even then, shouldn't they require some form of character evidence from this? School reports, transcripts, or whatever. But it isn't court, I guess, and the universities are free to do as they wish. And to add to that, it's probably reasonable to think it was done out of fear of association as much as anything.
 
We used to joke in game theory and behavioral econ classes about how school suspension is the most misaligned incentive in school systems. For most kids a suspension is just a free vacation and is not even considered a punishment. Its weaker than a slap on the wrist in this case.

"she has fielded several calls from individuals saying they planned to ask their alma maters not to accept students from Baraboo, a four-year high school with almost 1,000 students."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...araboo-high-school-boys-wisconsin/1997185002/
 
Carolina Red said:
Are you kidding me? :lol:

You’ve never had to help break up a gang fight at a school, have you?
Click to expand...

No I haven’t. But actual physical violence is absolutely worthy of a suspension. You didn’t mention that, I asked if the hand gestures in isolation got them suspended.

Halftrack said:
I was a terrible racist shit in my mid to late teens (fortunately, I never subjected anyone to any kind of abuse), and I turned into an SJW. I know that their personalities and behaviors are not set in stone, and condemning their futures over this is extremely harsh. But they should see consequences for it, and if a result of this is every single person in that picture not getting into their first choice school, then I'm fine with that.

But I was mostly pushing back against the idea that this was just a bad joke, and that it should be treated as such.
Click to expand...

Those schools are free to do as they wish of course. It’s their prerogative.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
We used to joke in game theory and behavioral econ classes about how school suspension is the most misaligned incentive in school systems. For most kids a suspension is just a free vacation and is not even considered a punishment. Its weaker than a slap on the wrist in this case.
Click to expand...
It’s a vacation for the teachers, too.
 
2 man midfield said:
No I haven’t. But actual physical violence is absolutely worthy of a suspension. You didn’t mention that, I asked if the hand gestures in isolation got them suspended.
Click to expand...
I’m not connecting the fight to the stacking instance, just mentioning it.

I just find it hilarious that you find kicking Affiliated gang members out of school is “a bit harsh”.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m not connecting the fight to the stacking instance, just mentioning it.

I just find it hilarious that you find kicking Affiliated gang members out of school is “a bit harsh”.
Click to expand...
Well then they weren’t kicked out for the hand gestures. They were kicked out for doing things gang members do.

I said it was hilarious before you did the bait and switch.
 
2 man midfield said:
Well then they weren’t kicked out for the hand gestures. They were kicked out for doing things gang members do.

I said it was hilarious before you did the bait and switch.
Click to expand...
Damn dude. I didn’t bait and switch, I’m just talking about other things I’ve seen from gang members in school. There were more than just the ones that got kicked out after stacking.

The ones from the gang fight got kicked out, too.

Then we had to ban certain colored shirts.
 
2 man midfield said:
Those schools are free to do as they wish of course. It’s their prerogative.
Click to expand...
I need to moderate myself a little: Those not throwing the salute should obviously not face consequences, at least not for the picture. Except the turd who's doing the white power sign instead. He's the worst of the lot.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
We used to joke in game theory and behavioral econ classes about how school suspension is the most misaligned incentive in school systems. For most kids a suspension is just a free vacation and is not even considered a punishment. Its weaker than a slap on the wrist in this case.
Click to expand...

i also got an in school suspension one time, which was just a day long detention
 
Last edited:
Prometheus said:
@Twigg I agree with your analysis of which one get more coverage, but for my second question...
... the answer is easily:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I mean terrorism is more scarce than the media would have you believe actually, but obviously still a prominent issue. I suppose the answer was kind of obvious there then, can't argue with it.
 
Free-speech protects Wisconsin students who appear to give Nazi salute in photo, school district says
Correct ruling, no doubt about it really.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...-salute-wisconsin-students20181124-story.html

Further:
The State Journal reports that Baraboo Superintendent Lori Mueller said in a letter to parents Wednesday that officials cannot know the "intentions in the hearts" of those involved. She also said the district isn't in a position to punish the students because they are protected by the First Amendment.
Click to expand...
 
berbatrick said:
How?
Click to expand...
The 1st Amendment isn’t absolute, and in regards to school functions it is even more restricted.

School discipline codes even include clauses that you can be punished for what you are doing in posts on social media.

So again, bullshit that just goes to prove that there’s something fishy going on in that school district.
 
Carolina Red said:
The 1st Amendment isn’t absolute, and in regards to school functions it is even more restricted.

School discipline codes even include clauses that you can be punished for what you are doing in posts on social media.

So again, bullshit that just goes to prove that there’s something fishy going on in that school district.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I knew that there were restrictions on school speech, I didn't realise how extensive.

I guess this makes a similar point:
 
berbatrick said:
Fair enough, I knew that there were restrictions on school speech, I didn't realise how extensive.

I guess this makes a similar point:
Click to expand...

Yep.

If it had been a large group of black kids “joking around” by taking a knee next to a flag pole... I bet the district would have reacted differently.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.