Maybe they could let us know why they did because cutting off your arm when your finger is itching doesn't seem to be the most sensible thing to do.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Maybe they could let us know why they did because cutting off your arm when your finger is itching doesn't seem to be the most sensible thing to do.
What could be best for the country but not best for the pocket of the people who voted?
Robin Hood has returned. Jacob Rees Mogg and his band of Merry Men. Johnson is Little John.
They are, it cannot be denied by any reasonable person, of the people. As evidenced by JRM's obsession with the cost of trainers.
True, that's spot on; the remain lot seem to only talk about economics, where as most of the leaving brigade talk about taking back control. No wonder there is no coming together, not only are both sides not on the same page, they are not even reading the same book!
You said it better that I ever could. I was going to post about emotional response and ill information, from the outside you can understand how they ended up voting to leave but this has nothing to do with actual intelligent and informed reasoning. Like in a lot of countries the UK has an issue with wealth redistribution but also job redistribution from a geographical standpoint which leads to the reality where London represents 20% of the UK GDP, in my opinion that's where things need to change, there needs to be policies that discourage companies to conglomerate in the capital. Jobs, because they exist, need to go to worker a little bit more, they need to be where workers can afford respectable housing.
"If someone asked me to be in a porn film I would do it for free."
Im sure there are plenty of people who would agree with that outside Maesteg.
The jobs are needed where the industry once was. The speed of deindustrialisation and the lack of investment has seen entire communities collapse. Places are falling apart and those places form a massive part of the Brexit vote. It's been going on for decades.
I don't agree with her. I have sympathy for people who feel they've been left behind and who feel they live in places without any prospects. I don't have any sympathy for people who then decide the best thing for them to do is to vote leave.
Hah, hah! Very true.
Wasn't Robin Hood supposed to be of 'noble blood' (Son of the Earl of Locksley?) according to the legend.... Born with the silver spoon etc. just like Jacob! Can't see JRM giving anything back to the poor though!
I still don't know what point you're trying to get to, you seemingly took offence at a bigot being labelled as such and took offence at the guardian for not focusing on some rare scenario despite the guardian constantly reporting the plight of these deprived areas.
You might find it more interesting but it's not a new take for most Labour voters in here and if the anger is going to be directed anywhere its towards the bigots and the ignorant especially when they're championing no deal which is a newer perspective than poverty.
Also I called her an idiot because it shouldn't take going to a place of hardship to understand some people live in hardship it's ignorant and simple minded.
No-one had mentioned WTO until the ERG tried to con everyone by pretending they understood what it meant. That was a long time after the referendum.
People did understand that having open fluid borders meant that there would be no interruptions to the supply of food, parts for manufacturing, travel, services, banking and the list goes on.
I'm really interested to know what is best for the country that is nothing to do with economics and what the people supposedly voted for out of desperation which wasn't connected to economics.
Things won't get better for the smaller towns under a Tory government. Being out of the EU and also having a Tory government means they're just gonna get screwed even more. Surely the last 10 years of austerity is enough to show them that?
I agree but it's not exactly a lack of investment that is the core issue. The main issue is that our politicians, because we have the same issue in France, are incompetent. They don't care about spatial planning, they don't care about the basics of their roles and are in complete dereliction of duty, everything they do is part of their plan to stay in power while doing as little as possible.
She's not said that. Yet you call her an idiot?
Poor people voting Tory has always struck me as pretty idiotic TBH.
But the bottom line is I am uncomfortable calling groups of people who take a different view to myself idiots. Individually, if I interact with people and find them to be idiots, that is a different thing. Of course there are idiots out there. But I have to make allowances for people who are not idiots, but for whatever reason see things differently to me.
I didn't say she said that
It's kind of what she said. She said that she was sympathetic to the idea of leaving because there is a problem with immigration, problem that she linked to fewer jobs and lower pay up North.
I haven't taken offence at anything. I thought the The Guardian slant (and your slant on theirs) missed the more interesting story which was that of Shermin ie avowedly pro Remain but the realities of hardship softening her stance. And yes it is difficult to truly understand if you don't experience it first hand as opposed to just reading about it in The Guardian like some do.
Interesting last sentence.
But that's the point. Someone isn't an idiot because they have a different opinion to yourself or that they voted differently.
They are an idiot if what they did or voted for caused themselves more problems instead of improving their lot. There is a distinction.
Well said.
Cheers, it's been quite confusing for outsiders who take a passing interest in this. Sounds like a right mess.
Ill just be repeating myself but the point I was trying to make earlier is that we dont know for sure that in the longer term voting Brexit wont improve their lot. What we do know for sure is that the status quo wasnt working for them, so voting Remain wasnt going to do anything for them. For at least some people - though not the highly intelligent and employed Brexiters you know - this was a vote to shake things up. And yes, maybe in the short term there will be a fallout, but there is at least a chance that once we ride that out, things will be better for them.
Yes. Living there has given her an insight into local community issues. She wasn't a leave voter and hasn't stated that she now would be. This is a reasonable position which doesn't go down well in an overwhelmingly pro remain thread that has little to no sympathy for the leave vote and more often than not rejects it with terms of abuse. She's now "simple minded" for being impacted by the realities of hardship and poverty that she hadn't previously encountered.
I find her story interesting as I do those who voted to leave but would now vote to remain given the chance. It's a very polarised and emotional debate and those that gain a better understanding of the other's position are thin on the ground. It's the only way forward though.
@Paul the Wolf Im sure I have actually seen you acknowledge that we dont know what the long term impact of Brexit will be - that we know for absolutely certain that in the short term it will be a disaster, but over a longer time horizon there are too many variables to know how things will play out.
I might be wrong about that.
I might be wrong about that.
I understand what you're saying but there is no evidence that leaving will improve their lot whatsoever. The difference in opinion is how long the fallout lasts and how it would be possible to recover.
I know perfectly well why the people I know voted leave.
Actually, we don't know that since the EU has little to do with their problems.
Anyhow. back to that lying duplicitous PM..
They don't need evidence. It's a gamble. The point is they feel they have little to lose so are happy to take that chance.
I don't think that argument holds really.
If they wanted to shake things up and have a chance at improving things for themselves then why not vote for Corbyn as a protest vote? He was running on a campaign of improving things for the less well off. Why not cause chaos that way? Instead they voted for Brexit then in the very next general election voted the Tories into power again.
This is just an example. The country had other ways of protesting their conditions but at every opportunity voted for the Tories so I can't accept that as a reason for the Brexit vote.
It is absolutely madness to even contemplate the idea that the UK will ever be as good as it is now outside all the trading blocks around the world as it is being economically isolated. It is beyond being naive to even think it is something that could happen. UK will be trading on worse terms compared to every other developed country and that will never end up being better short or long term.
That's irrelevant though. The status quo wasnt working for them, that doesnt mean the EU wasnt working for them. But leaving the EU will change things fundamentally, and that in turn could force politicians to address problems not caused by the EU.
I dont know, maybe they are right wing?
Those saying "it can't get any worse" are the most ignorant among the lot. They may very well be dissatisfied with their lives, they may well feel fecked over by London, Brussels, whoever. That doesn't mean anyone owes them anything. On a global scale those who are bad off in the UK are still pretty well off. They're doing their best to change that.
Best case scenario, for me, is that in the long term - and by that I mean 10 plus years - we're no worse off than we are now. Short to medium term, I think Brexit is going to hurt, at least the majority of us.
I understand what you say about people wanting to improve their lot. But surely most can see that has more to do with the financial crash and near a decade of austerity? The EU did not force the Tory party to pursue this. And if we are worse off after Brexit, that's all the excuse the Tories will need for continuing austerity.
It isn't overly civilised or enlightened to ignore the idiocy amongst the leave vote. Brexit would not have passed if it weren't for these people or the bigots. You can call them ignorant or ill informed if that pleases your sensibilities but the effect is the same.
I take no issue with those who had genuine concerns over sovereignty or concern over the EU project (i thought Nick argued his points well).
I do take issue with those who voted in an ignorant state and i do take issue with those who voted in protest. I'd be better off personally voting Tory but i consider Labour policies as showing decency and respect to all and i vote accordingly so anyone who voted not even in self-interest but in spite or as a roll over the dice can royally feck off putting the future of me and my own at risk.
I take no issue with those who had genuine concerns over sovereignty or concern over the EU project (i thought Nick argued his points well).
I do take issue with those who voted in an ignorant state and i do take issue with those who voted in protest. I'd be better off personally voting Tory but i consider Labour policies as showing decency and respect to all and i vote accordingly so anyone who voted not even in self-interest but in spite or as a roll over the dice can royally feck off putting the future of me and my own at risk.
They may not think they have little to lose.
What happens if it does all go as expected when the UK leaves and they are worse off.
You don't want people saying "see we told you so".
There's the old saying 'there is always someone worse off than you'- the problem is it will almost certainly be themselves after the UK leaves. There's more chance they'd win the lottery than being better off.
Great summary, basically lays out how the UK government committed to the backstop in 2017 as a sign of their commitment to uphold the GFA.
But now they're backing out of that agreement and yet asking Ireland and the EU to trust them to uphold the GFA on nothing more than blind faith.
Maybe they recognise that things can get worse for them. Things can always get worse. But maybe things are bad enough that they dont particularly care about that risk. Maybe the chance that things might get better is a bigger motivation than the fear things could get worse.
As an analogy, its like in poker if you are basically down to your last few chips. A few chips is better than no chips. But still, when you are short stacked its perfectly rational to stick what you have on a long shot, and then you are either bust, or you are in a better position to fight again.
For me the tragedy here is that there are apparently so many people in this country in a bad enough situation that they had this mindset, not in a game of poker but in real life. That's why I dont think these people are idiots, I think they are desperate.
As an analogy, its like in poker if you are basically down to your last few chips. A few chips is better than no chips. But still, when you are short stacked its perfectly rational to stick what you have on a long shot, and then you are either bust, or you are in a better position to fight again.
For me the tragedy here is that there are apparently so many people in this country in a bad enough situation that they had this mindset, not in a game of poker but in real life. That's why I dont think these people are idiots, I think they are desperate.
There's a reasonable case to be made that EU membership shielded them from some of the worst consequences of the status quo. Let's not forget that EU funding frequently ended up in some of the poorest/ most Leave voting parts of the UK. Which is one of the great ironies of the referendum result.
I've been listening to a fair bit of Mark Blyth recently. Which is equal parts depressing and enlightening. He does a great job of getting into the heads - and explaining the economics behind the mindset - of the Trump/Brexit voters who were being so screwed over by the system that they voted to try and tear the whole thing down and start again. So much so that he called both results long before they happened.
Ultimately, though, both scenarios are really just self-harm on massive scale. We're hurting so we want the whole world to hurt too. With a liberal sprinkling of xenophobia due to the way they blame immigrants for their woes, as much as they blame the 1%ers taking home all the bacon. There's no rational reason to see anything positive coming out of this in the long term. Not that I can see anyway. Would love to hear any theories, because the alternative is pretty fecking grim!