Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Massive Spanner]

The problem, as I see it, isn't that older people's perspectives are not valid; the problem is that they have less of a stake in the future. As such, even with the best will in the world, they are unlikely to be as mindful of longterm consequences, say a generation down the line, than younger people. Furthermore, without meaning to be rude or ageist, older people haven't the best understanding of what matters to younger people. I work with younger people and, half the time, I do not understand their priorities but I do trust them to choose their own future.

Yes you can look at it that way but you should look at it from another perspective, which is that older people have more experience and should be better equipped than young people to make these decisions. Unfortunately with Brexit that wasn't the case but that was more so due to the lies and vitriol spouted by the politicians representing those people than the people themselves, and also possibly a lack of proper education in many of the older generation.

In Ireland last year we had the abortion referendum, many beforehand predicted the older generation to be the ones to cost us the amendment but in the end an unexpectedly large percentage of them actually voted to repeal, mainly because the Yes campaign actually campaigned correctly, with the right facts and with the right targets, something you categorically cannot say about the Remain camp during the Brexit referendum.

Ultimately you just can't give the older people less of a say in these things, you may not like it, and personally it irritates me a lot too to see them feck things up for the younger generation, but it goes against everything democracy represents to do something like that, it can never happen.

 

[RedChip]

Yes you can look at it that way but you should look at it from another perspective, which is that older people have more experience and should be better equipped than young people to make these decisions. Unfortunately with Brexit that wasn't the case but that was more so due to the lies and vitriol spouted by the politicians representing those people than the people themselves, and also possibly a lack of proper education in many of the older generation.

In Ireland last year we had the abortion referendum, many beforehand predicted the older generation to be the ones to cost us the amendment but in the end an unexpectedly large percentage of them actually voted to repeal, mainly because the Yes campaign actually campaigned correctly, with the right facts and with the right targets, something you categorically cannot say about the Remain camp during the Brexit referendum.

Ultimately you just can't give the older people less of a say in these things, you may not like it, and personally it irritates me a lot too to see them feck things up for the younger generation, but it goes against everything democracy represents to do something like that, it can never happen.

Maybe this is where we differ. I don't think older people are better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people. I actually think the opposite.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Maybe this is where we differ. I don't think older people are better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people. I actually think the opposite.

They key word in my sentence is should be. Did you read the rest of my paragraph?

 

[GloryHunter07]

Anyone watched this https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ction-line-manager-at-nissan-who-voted-leave/

Puzzling.

 

[RedChip]

They key word in my sentence is should be. Did you read the rest of my paragraph?

Yes, I did. And the point I should have made is that those life experiences older people may have had do not necessarily help them forecast a future, in or outside of Europe, more accurately than younger people.

 

[Barca84]

Maybe this is where we differ. I don't think older people are better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people. I actually think the opposite.

What is older? At what age should it be decreed that you are no longer better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people? 30? 35? 45? Who decides this? Young people, old people, or middle aged people?

 

[Reiver]

Yes, I did. And the point I should have made is that those life experiences older people may have had do not necessarily help them forecast a future, in or outside of Europe, more accurately than younger people.

Completely agree. You could go further and argue that those with experience of WWII could well have a skewed view on any kind of union with Europe. Especially Germany.

 

[JPRouve]

Puzzling.

The great thing about this, is that he answered a question that I wanted to ask here. I only recently understood how production cycles work and I have been wondering if people realize that while plenty of industries will stay in the UK in the short to mid term, they will be in a position to move everything when the current production cycles are over because at that point they will have to make a crucial arbitrage and choose where to invest. That's what Nissan did with the X-trail with a production line that wasn't in place yet. Also if I'm not mistaken all productions cycle in Sunderland are over in the next 10 years.

 

[RedChip]

What is older? At what age should it be decreed that you are no longer better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people? 30? 35? 45? Who decides this? Young people, old people, or middle aged people?

Follow the thread! This is the debate. Read the original article @Sigma linked.

 

[4bars]

Theres a reason the vast majority of the House of Commons voted to remain. Because they understand these complex issues to a far greater detail than the vast majority of the population. We have elections so our representatives can represent us on difficult issues. Some MP's are bad, we have the choice to vote them out in the next election.

I frankly didn't see they understood anything so far after more than 2 years. And maybe they voted remain because it was just going with the flow of the establishment. Now looks there are more of them going for leave (maybe before they didn't see it possible and now yes and they see a possiblity to benefit themselves in the middle of this chaos)

Maybe maybe maybe. There is so many maybes that I don't trust that any representative would do any better than the average citizen, as the competent ones are in the private sector or they are not evil enough to reach a high position of power. Ultimately, I think that referendums are the ultimate form of democracy, but people needs to be educated on them and specially not bein lied. Switzerland has an amazing referendum culture and it works

 

[Sigma]

I frankly didn't see they understood anything so far after more than 2 years. And maybe they voted remain because it was just going with the flow of the establishment. Now looks there are more of them going for leave (maybe before they didn't see it possible and now yes and they see a possiblity to benefit themselves in the middle of this chaos)

Maybe maybe maybe. There is so many maybes that I don't trust that any representative would do any better than the average citizen, as the competent ones are in the private sector or they are not evil enough to reach a high position of power. Ultimately, I think that referendums are the ultimate form of democracy, but people needs to be educated on them and specially not bein lied. Switzerland has an amazing referendum culture and it works

That's the problem. A democracy is only as good as the media contained within it.

 

[4bars]

That's the problem. A democracy is only as good as the media contained within it.

Definitely. That's why I think we are doomed whatever we do

 

[Sigma]

Definitely. That's why I think we are doomed whatever we do

Touche

 

[Sassy Colin]

I believe that the whole Brexit process is a conspiracy by the BBC to keep Laura Kuenssberg and Katia Adler in work.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

The great thing about this, is that he answered a question that I wanted to ask here. I only recently understood how production cycles work and I have been wondering if people realize that while plenty of industries will stay in the UK in the short to mid term, they will be in a position to move everything when the current production cycles are over because at that point they will have to make a crucial arbitrage and choose where to invest. That's what Nissan did with the X-trail with a production line that wasn't in place yet. Also if I'm not mistaken all productions cycle in Sunderland are over in the next 10 years.

Any chance of a thread title change to "It's All Diesel's Fault"?

I was saying exactly the same as this to a friend about 3hrs ago. When the models that are produced there now are phased out, there'll be nothing to replace them.

 

[GloryHunter07]

The great thing about this, is that he answered a question that I wanted to ask here. I only recently understood how production cycles work and I have been wondering if people realize that while plenty of industries will stay in the UK in the short to mid term, they will be in a position to move everything when the current production cycles are over because at that point they will have to make a crucial arbitrage and choose where to invest. That's what Nissan did with the X-trail with a production line that wasn't in place yet. Also if I'm not mistaken all productions cycle in Sunderland are over in the next 10 years.

What i found odd was the blasé way he talked about colleagues losing jobs at the end of the next cycle. He was ok, because he could move to Europe..

 

[Wibble]

I frankly didn't see they understood anything so far after more than 2 years. And maybe they voted remain because it was just going with the flow of the establishment. Now looks there are more of them going for leave (maybe before they didn't see it possible and now yes and they see a possiblity to benefit themselves in the middle of this chaos)

Maybe maybe maybe. There is so many maybes that I don't trust that any representative would do any better than the average citizen, as the competent ones are in the private sector or they are not evil enough to reach a high position of power. Ultimately, I think that referendums are the ultimate form of democracy, but people needs to be educated on them and specially not bein lied. Switzerland has an amazing referendum culture and it works

It might be ok for such a small wealthy nation but it would be an utter clusterfeck if applied in the UK.

 

[africanspur]

Anyone watched this https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ction-line-manager-at-nissan-who-voted-leave/

I actually have been wondering about this. Whether (assuming the worst), we end up going back to the EU in an unspecified period of time (could be 50+ years for all I know) for reinstatement into the EU. Except this time, it would probably be on their terms and all of the opt outs we had would no longer be in play.

I generally like O'Brien but he loves talking over people doesn't he? He's literally telling this guy he's one of his most interesting callers and spends much of the time talking over him. Strange.

Though I didn't understand his reasoning for saying he'd vote leave again? Despite talking about how terrible he currently thinks it is?

 

[Barca84]

Completely agree. You could go further and argue that those with experience of WWII could well have a skewed view on any kind of union with Europe. Especially Germany.

I've spent plenty of time with people who fought in WW2, and lived through it here at home, and there is little anti German sentiment in that generation. Amongst ex servicemen in particular there is a broad realisation that the majority of men they were fighting were ordinary, conscripted men just like them.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I've spent plenty of time with people who fought in WW2, and lived through it here at home, and there is little anti German sentiment in that generation. Amongst ex servicemen in particular there is a broad realisation that the majority of men they were fighting were ordinary, conscripted men just like them.

That generation are mostly gone now as you’d have to be at least 90 to have fought in WWII. It’s their children, the ones who “experienced” the war second hand, who tend to have the anti-EU attitudes and misplaced sense of British exceptionalism.

 

[Barca84]

That generation are mostly gone now as you’d have to be at least 90 to have fought in WWII. It’s their children, the ones who “experienced” the war second hand, who tend to have the anti-EU attitudes and misplaced sense of British exceptionalism.

Agreed. I think that, generally speaking, people who have experienced the terrors of war and fought for peace do truly appreciate it and seek to preserve it. And now that the political classes of Europe no longer contain survivors of 20th century war a return to conflict could perhaps be more likely.

 

[JPRouve]

I actually have been wondering about this. Whether (assuming the worst), we end up going back to the EU in an unspecified period of time (could be 50+ years for all I know) for reinstatement into the EU. Except this time, it would probably be on their terms and all of the opt outs we had would no longer be in play.

I generally like O'Brien but he loves talking over people doesn't he? He's literally telling this guy he's one of his most interesting callers and spends much of the time talking over him. Strange.

Though I didn't understand his reasoning for saying he'd vote leave again? Despite talking about how terrible he currently thinks it is?

My understanding is that he believes that England(not the UK) needs to be taught a lesson in humility and Westminster needs to be exposed, when that happens he believes that the UK will rejoin the EU with a different mentality.

 

[Reiver]

I've spent plenty of time with people who fought in WW2, and lived through it here at home, and there is little anti German sentiment in that generation. Amongst ex servicemen in particular there is a broad realisation that the majority of men they were fighting were ordinary, conscripted men just like them.

Fair enough. Having worked in the adult care sector myself this does not represent my experience. Although it is probably more of a sense that Britain is better off by itself than an actual anti-German sentiment, as you say. And I do think this sense was shaped by memories of the war and the British Empire.

 

[TheGame]

This is exactly what the media should be doing, not letting these politicians get away with their lines. If more people can in the media did this, they would hopefully think twice about sprouting their shite.

 

[Bola]

So apparently the people of sunderland are getting what they asked for. The new X-trail will be manufactured in Japan, not Brexit Britain.

Is that decision a direct consequence of Brexit or a reaction to changes in the policy/ regulatory stance on larger diesel engine cars that is likely to signifcantly shrink the demand across the Europe markets?

 

[Bola]

I'm pretty swayed towards this argument in general to be honest.

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/nnydd8/brexit-proves-baby-boomers-should-get-less-of-a-vote

Yeah let's give extra weighting to relatively less experienced individuals, with relatively limited responsibility and with their minds still relatively obscured by idealism

Even better, let's make every vote for 'left' policies worth 10.

FFS

 

[Bola]

It all leads back to one problem, there never should have been referendum such as we had. Its been said many times but such a drastic change to the political and economic system should have never been decided by a simple majority.

How should have it have been decided?

 

[Bola]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

 

[Rajma]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

I hope you’re not serious here.

 

[Rajma]

How should have it have been decided?

Large majority

 

[Rajma]

Is that decision a direct consequence of Brexit or a reaction to changes in the policy/ regulatory stance on larger diesel engine cars that is likely to signifcantly shrink the demand across the Europe markets?

Brexit, their statement said as much and obviously recent trade deal signed between Japan and EU.

 

[Bola]

I actually have been wondering about this. Whether (assuming the worst), we end up going back to the EU in an unspecified period of time (could be 50+ years for all I know) for reinstatement into the EU. Except this time, it would probably be on their terms and all of the opt outs we had would no longer be in play.

I generally like O'Brien but he loves talking over people doesn't he? He's literally telling this guy he's one of his most interesting callers and spends much of the time talking over him. Strange.

Though I didn't understand his reasoning for saying he'd vote leave again? Despite talking about how terrible he currently thinks it is?

If the EU is there in 50 years, may not even make it beyond the next decade given the way continental European politics are changing and the rapid growth of some economies outside of the EU

 

[Bola]

Large majority

I hope you are not serious

 

[Rajma]

I hope you are not serious

Because simple majority on such issue proven to be a success given how equally split the country is?

 

[Bola]

I hope you’re not serious here.

I am serious.

The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum

They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted

 

[Bola]

Because simple majority on such issue proven to be a success given how equally split the country is?

It's undermining democracy. You are essentially giving weight to one side of the argument

 

[Shinjch]

I am serious.

The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum

They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted

You do realise that the backstop is a UK government idea that the EU have already compromised on, right?

 

[Bola]

Brexit, their statement said as much and obviously recent trade deal signed between Japan and EU.

I understood that the letter made a reference to Brexit as a factor, but the main reasons were stated were falling sales of the model and changing regulations around diesel?

 

[JPRouve]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

To compromise you need to have an actual alternative.

 

[Bola]

You do realise that the backstop is a UK government idea that the EU have already compromised on, right?

Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations

The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*

* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with