Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Ah, the good old "demilitarized zones". "Freshely imported peasant population".:lol:

Probably should've known what was up after the "cowardly left wing snowflakes" phrase in the first post.
 
There was no negotiated withdrawal deal to be had with the EU, just a litany from the EU of what they expected us to do on leaving and to request a lump sum for doing so. May found this out eventually, although it should have been obvious from day one.
Even if for the sake of saving face, we had to look like we were negotiating a withdrawal agreement, we should still have behind the scenes at home been preparing for a no deal.

Well there are always going to be conditions for leaving anything you join and agree to take part responsibility for.

For the UK the main element in the withdrawal arrangement would always be what we paid the EU, in terms of agreed debt. The backstop is a nonsense,

How is it nonsense mate?

It's a mechanism to ensure the GFA can be preserved, that might not mean much to some but to people over here it's pretty much everything. People in Ireland are worried about the economic impact also for sure but the prospect of a border and the troubles kicking off again is a very real fear.

The EU negotiated the backstop around the UK governments red lines. And they wanted it in place to ensure the UK government wouldn't go back on their word. Turns out they were bang on with that one, as May and the UK government signed a withdrawal agreement with the backstop in November and shortly after it was signed they wanted to renegotiate it.

all parties agreed there will be no hard border re-introduced on the Isle of Ireland, so whose going to do it, May has said time and again it wont be us?

May said the exact opposite before the referendum so when was she lying?



The secretary of state for NI Karen Bradley has also said there will have to be border checks in Ireland in the event of a no deal.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/brex...l-mean-wto-customs-checks-in-ireland-1488385/

This idea i continually see being touted around almost everywhere that you can just have no sort of border controls at all just doesn't seem like a plausible option in the real world to me.
 
In fairness a lot of us would go far beyond "a bit thick" at this point.



Absolutely, but by the same token there is a case for trying to understand why these people voted as they did and if there is a case to made for “they are just a bit thick”.

We know why they did, the poor neighborhoods are the places all the refugees and immigrants igrants get placed, places where services and standards of living are already poor get lowered even further by us importing further poverty into those areas.

Crime increases, cultures clash, racial tensions increase, and these neighbourhoods, Splott in Cardiff, areas of Bullwell and Beeston in Nottingham, Bretton in Peterborough, turn into what are effectively demilitarized zones.

And Europe carried the can.

It carried the can for everything, lack of work at the bottom end of society, lack of services due to increased strain looking after our freshely imported peasant population.

I imagine if more us lived in that situation we might have a better understanding of the “why” even if we dont agree with it.

That's just not true. The most (proportionally and in absolute numbers) migrants live in London. London voted remain.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/
 
Also in the borrows mentioned in the post, the main non british demographics is largely from outside the EU which makes me wonder about the link with Brexit.
 
My soon to be father in law sent me some fake news about muslims in Birmingham today.

I give up, the internet has turned everyone's brains into mush.
 
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My soon to be father in law sent me some fake news about muslims in Birmingham today.

I give up, the internet has turned everyone into morons.

After a long time hesitating , I have finally deleted my Facebook account, apart from the gibberish people believe about Brexit, Gilet Jaunes and all types of crap, I really got sick of people sharing posts about looking for dogs that disappeared 10 years ago (hundreds of miles from where they live).
 
Also in the borrows mentioned in the post, the main non british demographics is largely from outside the EU which makes me wonder about the link with Brexit.

One of the main parts of the campaign was about immigrants from Turkey so ...
I think the media and politicians have been blaming the EU and foreigners and giving a platfrom to liars and clowns without doing enough to expose them for the sham they are for too long. Or maybe the problem is there's no alternative to a lieing politician, probably more benign lies but liars all the same. There's been decades of campaigning against foreigners and people offering up a vote as a solution to this made up problem and people voted for it. It doesn't seem that surprising or like a once off that a 2nd referendum will automatically save.
 
After a long time hesitating , I have finally deleted my Facebook account, apart from the gibberish people believe about Brexit, Gilet Jaunes and all types of crap, I really got sick of people sharing posts about looking for dogs that disappeared 10 years ago (hundreds of miles from where they live).
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes
 
Daniel Kawczynski is a moron. Another rich muppet pretending to give a shit about the commoners but actually simply in it to line his own pockets. Hopefully one day people will see through people like this.
 
There is a lot of delusion on both sides o
Anyone would think the EU were throwing us out, not that we insist on leaving, despite the obvious idiocy of it.

The EU dearly want us to stay, can't think why.

Money?
 
So, poorer Brexiters voted to be worse off? There’s nothing wrong in that

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers
In Uncle Tom’s Cabin, there is a moment when Augustine St Clare, who owns Tom, suggests that he is better off as a slave than he would be as a free man. “No,” insists Tom. “Why Tom?” asks St Clare. “You couldn’t possibly have earned, by your work, such clothes and such living as I have given you.” “Know’s all that Mas’r,” says Tom. “But I’d rather have poor clothes, poor house, poor everything and have ’em mine, than have the best, and have ’em any man else’s.”

It has long been a challenge, particularly for those who are comfortable, to understand why anybody who is struggling would choose to be worse off. Liberals can take it particularly personally when those who would most benefit materially from a change in policy or circumstance opt to reject it. The assumption is that they must be misinformed, ill-informed, uninformed, stupid, naive or cruelly misled.


Whether they are poor Americans demonstrating against healthcare provision they don’t have, or direct beneficiaries of European Union funding voting to leave the EU, those who act “against” their material interests invite a mixture of befuddlement and derision

Since becoming poorer is not a course of action any poor person would consciously take, goes the argument, they are clearly not acting rationally and deserve what is coming.

Quite why well-off liberals in particular would find someone voting against their material interests such a baffling idea is odd. They do it all the time. Whenever they vote Labour, or for any party that plans to raise taxes on the wealthy and redistribute income, they vote to make themselves worse off materially. True, they are better positioned to take a hit than those at the other end of the income scale. But there’s more to it than that. They do so, for the most part, because when it comes to politics they don’t just vote for their own financial wellbeing. They are thinking about the kind of country and world they want to live in, and the values that they hold dear.

The notion that working-class voters approach politics differently is extremely patronising. Indeed it is precisely the kind of attitude that provides fodder to the rightwing culture warriors who rail against the “coastal elites” in the US and “do-gooders”. There really are some liberals who think that they know what’s better for working-class people than working-class people themselves do.

This is not just a problem in and of itself – infantilising people in the name of their own advancement is a bad thing – it is counterproductive. When you start from the premise that those who disagree with you are acting illogically or are too unsophisticated to understand their own interests, no meaningful political engagement is possible – that would demand first understanding the logic and then challenging, converting, subverting or otherwise engaging it in the hope that you might change someone’s perspective and win them round.

This has, of course, been a particular challenge when it comes to Brexit, where the two things we know are that poor people will be the most adversely affected by Britain leaving the EU – particularly if there is no deal – and that the poorer you are, the more likely you were to vote for it.

With some notable exceptions, remain advocates have responded to this apparent conundrum by forsaking respectful engagement in favour of a combination of face-palming at the stupidity of lemmings going for a leap and promising Armageddon when they land. This didn’t work in the run-up to the referendum. And it’s not working now.

This is partly because leave voters don’t believe the hype. A recent poll showed a significant majority of them believed Brexit posed a less serious crisis than either the financial crash or the miners’ strike. In other words, it’s not that they don’t understand things could get worse; they just feel they’ve been through worse. That may, as Fintan O’Toole argued in this newspaper recently, reflect the complacency of those who have only known stability. “Only a country that does not really know what the collapse of political authority looks like would play this game,” he wrote. We won’t know until it’s too late.

But also many did not vote purely for their material interest, but for something bigger that they thought more important. Polling by the Centre for Social Investigation revealed that remain voters significantly underestimated the importance that leave voters attached to sovereignty. The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave. When remain voters were asked why they thought people had voted leave they put the UK making its own laws last, after “teach British politicians a lesson”.

Embodied in that preoccupation with sovereignty, I believe, was a notion of what this country has been, has become and might be – a story many British, and particularly English, people tell themselves about a once independent and impregnable distinct island that has lost its autonomy to a faceless potage of bureaucrats from Babel and how this is a chance to break free. That story did not come from nowhere. From the Falklands war to Fritz, the New Labour bulldog, the entire political class has colluded in its construction. It has now been leveraged by opportunists and is consuming the political class whole.

It is a story enduring enough that when someone argues, “If you do this your factory might close,” you might respond: “It’s not my factory and ‘they’ve’ been closing factories around here for years. But it is my country and I don’t want ‘them’ messing with it.” In this story “they” is a moving target. It could be immigrants, it could be Brussels, it could be foreign companies. The only thing “we” know for sure is it’s not “us”.

I think that story’s deeply flawed. It is mythical about the past: those who evoke the wars conveniently forget that they could not have been won without allies. Those who evoke the empire conveniently forget that it could not have been maintained without brutality (as the current furore over Winston Churchill’s legacyillustrates). It is obtuse about the present: countries evolve, borders shift, identities develop. Our royal family is German; our favourite food is Indian; and if people could only agree on how to spell Muhammad it would be England’s most popular name for a boy. We are not who we were; nor should we seek to be. And it is fanciful about our future: our political sovereignty, like everybody else’s, is primarily constrained not by Brussels, but international capital. And since you can’t vote to leave that, staying in or out of the EU will make us less effective, but not more independent.


But I also think, in the absence of other stories, it is compelling. Far more compelling than the threat of a scarcity of fresh vegetables and a run on the pound if we crash out with no deal. Compelling enough that some would suffer to see it through. Our challenge is not to mock, but to tell a better story. One that includes them, has a future for all of us and, ultimately, turns “them” and “us” into “we”.
 
Well yeah, Brexit would make sense if it was liberating Britain from slavery. As it is Brexit is more akin to giving up your driver's license and voting rights for the improvement of being allowed to live outside.

When you start from the premise that those who disagree with you are acting illogically or are too unsophisticated to understand their own interests, no meaningful political engagement is possible – that would demand first understanding the logic and then challenging, converting, subverting or otherwise engaging it in the hope that you might change someone’s perspective and win them round.

And this is just taking the micky now. Three years of lies, insults, ignorance more lies and some extra insults brexiteers now want to be respected :lol:.
 
So, poorer Brexiters voted to be worse off? There’s nothing wrong in that

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers

That’s a well written piece.

Although it starts off taking the moral high-ground over jumped up liberals calling people stupid for voting Leave, then concludes by saying how stupid (ok, “flawed”) the main reasons for voting Leave actually were.

Classic Grauniad hand wringing effort to have cake and eat it.
 
I never took JRM to be a liar, I thought he had more integrity than that, but I heard him suggesting that it was Europe who forced us into diesel cars rather than the UK Government encouraging diesel car ownership due to the lower emissions.

They had been favouring diesel cars in Europe for decades before they were recommended in the UK, mainly because diesel was so much cheaper in Europe compared to the UK and diesel cars are more expensive than petrol, so it was often difficult to justify on economic grounds.

October 2017:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/jacob-rees-mogg-labels-government-car-policy/

Mr Rees-Mogg believes the government's policy to force people to buy diesel cars is a scandal and he's furious that the motorist is being forced to pay because of it.

February 2019:

"The issue for many of the car manufacturers begins with diesel engines and the big push that emanated from the European Union to encourage people to buy diesel engines and discourage petrol engines.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special...cob-rees-mogg-nissan-move-not-down-to-brexit/
 
Never once have I watched Mogg and thought that he had an ounce of integrity.
 
What's amazing is that whenever brexit gets blamed for a negative impact to an industry the likes of JRM instantly become experts in that field.
 
I never took JRM to be a liar, I thought he had more integrity than that, but I heard him suggesting that it was Europe who forced us into diesel cars rather than the UK Government encouraging diesel car ownership due to the lower emissions.

They had been favouring diesel cars in Europe for decades before they were recommended in the UK, mainly because diesel was so much cheaper in Europe compared to the UK and diesel cars are more expensive than petrol, so it was often difficult to justify on economic grounds.

October 2017:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/jacob-rees-mogg-labels-government-car-policy/



February 2019:



https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special...cob-rees-mogg-nissan-move-not-down-to-brexit/

This gives me an opportunity to make a point that people ignore. In France the only reason diesel was so much cheaper was because it wasn't taxed like petrol, some people seem to think that it is now being surtaxed when it's not, it's just being treated equally with petrol. And yes it was a french policy meant to incite people to purchase diesel cars.
 
This gives me an opportunity to make a point that people ignore. In France the only reason diesel was so much cheaper was because it wasn't taxed like petrol, some people seem to think that it is now being surtaxed when it's not, it's just being treated equally with petrol. And yes it was a french policy meant to incite people to purchase diesel cars.

But that has been the policy in France, and the rest of mainland Europe, for decades before it became policy in the UK.

The differential between diesel & petrol in the UK used to be that diesel was maybe a penny or 2 more, now it is up to 10p more expensive.
 
But that has been the policy in France, and the rest of mainland Europe, for decades before it became policy in the UK.

The differential between diesel & petrol in the UK used to be that diesel was maybe a penny or 2 more, now it is up to 10p more expensive.

You are right, if I'm not mistaken in France it was a policy from the 80s. My point is that it was a french policy that artificially made diesel more competitive than petrol, the recent narratives are that diesel is now surtaxed or that the EU was the source. In reality, the main reason was that french car manufacturers, mainly PSA, were particularly good with diesel engines, so they lobbied for an advantageous fiscal policy for diesel.
 
Even if we come up with some new amazing technology that solves all our problems, Do the brexiteers expect the EU to accept this theoretical tech untested? and if it isn't ready in time what then.....wouldn't we need a backstop to the alternative tech arrangement?

Which is what us in the current WA anyway :wenger:
 
This gives me an opportunity to make a point that people ignore. In France the only reason diesel was so much cheaper was because it wasn't taxed like petrol, some people seem to think that it is now being surtaxed when it's not, it's just being treated equally with petrol. And yes it was a french policy meant to incite people to purchase diesel cars.

Incite or encourage?
 
You are right, if I'm not mistaken in France it was a policy from the 80s. My point is that it was a french policy that artificially made diesel more competitive than petrol, the recent narratives are that diesel is now surtaxed or that the EU was the source. In reality, the main reason was that french car manufacturers, mainly PSA, were particularly good with diesel engines, so they lobbied for an advantageous fiscal policy for diesel.

Exactly, and the same goes for the German car manufacturers. Another element in this was of course the world wide plans for reducing greenhouse emissons which came together in for example the Kyoto protocol. Because for a long time diesel cars were or have been the (slightly) better choice when it comes to reducing CO2 emissions.

Problem being that we've realised now that this doesn't necessarily weigh up against the other polluting effects of diesel cars which negatively influence for example the air quality.
 
Until the last 10-15 years, diesel engines were dirty, slow, noisy, expensive and thoroughly unpleasant. I think that, as much as anything, put people off.

Wouldn't it be more like the last 20 or even 25 years? I remember my uncle getting this ridiculous 150 hp VW Bora turbodiesel around the start of this century, that was one hell of a car back then. I can only imagine how unpleasant diesel must've been in the 70's and 80's though. Not that it really matters or is particularly relevant to the Brexit discussion by the way.
 
Wouldn't it be more like the last 20 or even 25 years? I remember my uncle getting this ridiculous 150 hp VW Bora turbodiesel around the start of this century, that was one hell of a car back then. I can only imagine how unpleasant diesel must've been in the 70's and 80's though. Not that it really matters or is particularly relevant to the Brexit discussion by the way.

Yeh, you're probably right, but the reputation followed the diesel engine, in the UK, up until around 15 year's ago.
 
They really don't care .If the troubles come back and thousands more die here they will just shrug and blame everyone else buy themselves

They clearly managed to also forget the Tory conference getting bombed in Brighton. Last time they didn't get to just sit back and let someone else deal with it. Hopefully it won't take something that dramatic to wake them up to quite how life and death this stuff is.
 
So apparently the people of sunderland are getting what they asked for. The new X-trail will be manufactured in Japan, not Brexit Britain.