For the record, I'm not very impressed by these Independence Party eejits, centrist or not. Just find it funny the way having moderate political opinions is frowned upon by so many people these days. Go extreme or go home.
The Independent Group for Change | Have decided to disband after ten months
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Which of their policies fits into the 'moderate' category?
I wasn't really referring to their policies. I was just commenting on the way you often see "centrist" used a term of abuse on Twitter. Centrist dads and all that stuff.
I presumed this lot were cut from the same cloth but don't know enough about them to be certain. Do they even have a manifesto yet? If they think Brexit is a terrible fecking idea, then that's at least one policy of theirs that I can get behind. Seeing as Brexit generally seems to be supported by the far left and far right, would it be considered moderate to want it not to happen?
Centrists should be mocked, it's weather-vane politics. Chuka is the king of the term, having the benefit of holding every possible view on Brexit so there's at least 5 minutes in the years since the referendum was announced where he can be considered moderate on it. Same goes for immigration, bar building a wall around the UK he's spouted every talking point possible.
No, she's much older than me ...
You can (and should) mock politicians from right across the political spectrum. I'm fine with that. It's more the idea that centrist policies (like doing everything possible to stop Brexit) are automatically worthy of disdain that I disagree with. In fact, I think attitudes like this are dangerous. Just fuels more and more polarisation.
Then I’ll use the thought to mildly comfort me while I cry myself to sleep.
There is no such thing, that's the point. For example, which version of Brexit is Chuka looking to stop?
The one he didn't want a second referendum on but now leads People's Vote to try and get?
The one where he wanted not just the UK but the entire EU to end Freedom of Movement - a Freedom that he was so desperate for the UK to be exempt from that he was talking about sacrificing membership of the Single Market in any negotiations with the EU?
Now he's heading a movement thats website claims:
- We believe that our parliamentary democracy in which our elected representatives deliberate, decide and provide leadership, held accountable by their whole electorate is the best system of representing the views of the British people.
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The group don't actually have any policies yet though, have struggled to state specifically how they would differ from Labour in policy and I don't particularly see "doing everything possible to stop Brexit" as a centrist thing either, there are people on all sides who support it and people on all sides (including people who voted remain) who don't.
Probably the reason why centrist is a term of abuse on Twitter is the same reason that "hard left" is a term of abuse on Twitter applicable to Labour supporters. Tit for tat. Personally I find it laughable when people brand themselves as centrist or moderate assuming them to be automatically positive terms because that implies that everything else is bad.
Good post.
What is your view on a second referendum out of interest @Dobba ?
It's completely pointless as none of the people who'd be involved in campaigning for Remain the second time have learned a thing about why the last one was lost.
'We're going to lose so it's not even worth trying' is definitely a political mantra to inspire the generations.
Voting again, once the circumstances of what you voted for have changed, is overrated anyway. Just ask Chuka and co.
You mean Chuka and co are permanent members of parliament?!?
The people voted to leave the EU, now we know more details about what it'll involve. We need a second vote, ASAP.
The people voted for MPs running on a Labour platform, now they're not and are no great rush to tell anyone what their new policies are. No second vote needed.
Correct. With a hard deadline of Friday March 29th.
Incorrect. There will be another vote. At the next general election. Which could potentially happen before March 29th.
Two birds with one stone, have another Brexit vote at the same time as the next general election. Democracy can wait and it'll almost certainly push the turnout up for both too.
If that was possible, that would be a great idea.
Although ideally you'd want all the political parties to be absolutely clear where they stand on Brexit beforehand. Something Corbyn's been infuriatingly vague about from the get go. The Independent Group are wooly about a lot of things but at least they have the stones to make their position clear on the most important issue facing Britain in recent history.
Who cares? In your view someone hasn't even got to be clear about which political platform they're going to be standing on to be a MP - no need to get picky about specific policies.
What a ridiculous idea, a homing pigeon, just think of the potential mess a homing pigeon could make on that leather jacket.
I've only seen the clip I posted but I image its one of those vlog video things. Similar to when the guardian goes on one of its brexit "road trips".
Blairites
cnuts
Margaret Thatcher lizard children
War criminals
Tories.
There's plenty of other names if they feel centrist is too abusive.
If you ignore the past 40 odd years of political, social, economical events then yes you can just blame social media.
It's a tool to engage with other users.
The printing press didn't literally cause say something like the Russian revolution, it was a tool used to express ideas and those ideas only took hold because of the material condition of Russian in 1917.
This fascination with social media from some is quite odd and lazy.
Au contraire. When it comes to a general election, the political parties need to be crystal clear about their policies. So this lot will need to get their shit together in time for the next GE.
Absolutely. We wouldn't want them running on a platform, then ditching it a year later to replace it with vague nonsense. They'd have you to answer to.
Four years of an unchallenged nice little earner later.
Doing everything to stop Brexit isn't centrist though, it's not halfway between staying and going. Something Norwayish would be
The printing press was incredibly influential. Arguably one of the main drivers behind the Reformation, Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution.
The problem with social media - which is similarly influential - is that it seems to be a lot more vulnerabe to exploitation by malign influences. Which is the worry here. That and the fact it's most heavily used by complete bell-ends.
The idea of “centrism” depends entirely on the Overton window, which has been dragged drastically to the right since the last time being a centrist was objectively a good thing.
So you now have people promoting obviosily right wing ideas, and mocking potentially workable left wing ones as “pie in the sky magic money tree nonsense” (or PC gone mad) based entirely on the lazy assumption that they fall too far out of the window of acceptable “centrist” discussion.
So you now have people promoting obviosily right wing ideas, and mocking potentially workable left wing ones as “pie in the sky magic money tree nonsense” (or PC gone mad) based entirely on the lazy assumption that they fall too far out of the window of acceptable “centrist” discussion.
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This response is exactly indicative of the frequent problems with Corbyn/your position on this whole issue.
I have absolutely no energy to get involved in another argument in the matter because neither of us will change our mind. It's just staggeringly hilarious how any sort of consistency is thrown out of the window in pursuit of the defence of Corbyn. This weeks bout of hypocrisy comes with a side of a bare faced ridiculous lack of self awareness as a person who in one breath can declare a People's Vote pointless because it won't be won (yay for Corbyn's brand of revolutionary politics) can demand in the next breath that MPs trigger a by-election if some of the key facts behind their election have changed.
But, whatever, when a Tory Brexit hurts those who Labour champion the most occurs, facilitated by a complete failure of the party to provide meaningful opposition, I'm sure it will provide a crumb of comfort that you stayed ideologically pure as you rock back and forward murmuring 'but what about Chuka?' on repeat.
Come on. That's not right, surely? If anything, the Overton window been stretched equally in both directions. I certainly don't remember so many people claiming to be communists in the days of New Labour.
The current guise of Britain's Communist Party has been in existence since 1988.
Surprised it hasn't been round longer, to be honest. Whatever, we're clearly not living in a time where expressing far left ideologies has become unacceptable. Far left, far right, everyone has a voice these days. If the Overton window really is a thing, then it's a massive picture window with a hell of a view.
Today's Labour is well to the left of anything since before Kinnock, and Cameron's government was nowhere near as right wing as Thatcher was. Where that leaves your window I've no idea, but it adds up to a general move to the left as far as I can see. That's the parties, I mean, what the voters might think about it is a different matter.
Maybe. I mean just look across the pond at whole Bernie Sanders thing. When was the last time such a left-leaning presidential candidate got this much traction?
So it's Ash (and you'd probably stretch it to Owen Jones) versus everyone else and that's enough for the Overton window to have moved equally in both directions. That's handy.
Huh? The fecking leader of the opposition (bland guy, looks like a history teacher, not surprised he slipped your mind) is arguably the most hard left Labour leader in living memory. But yeah, we're just talking about Ash and Owen Jones here...
I'm not well up on US politics but yeah, Sanders is left of anything I remember, but to counter that Trump is more to the right of his lot. I wouldn't attempt to predict what will happen there next mind.
Trump is definitely to the right of his lot. That's my point, though. Both extremes seem to be getting more of a voice these days. So the idea that politics, as a whole, has drifted right is clearly nonsense. There's been a rush to the extremes. So - to torture the Overton window analogy even further - the most opaque area of glass these days seems to be slap bang in the middle.
Yeah, his policies famously get equal discussion time outside of an election, where they have to. Can't move for pro-Corbyn voices on the BBC.
Ok, so we're getting on to the standard Corbynite bug-bear and how the press are so mean to poor old Jezza. Well I think the days of the MSM as the primary indicator of public discourse are long gone. Which brings me back to social media...
Well, glad you agree.
I think the whole thing is just sad. We both supported Corbyn because of what he represented, but we're at a point now where the only people who still defend him are people who make Trumpian feats of logical contortions to justify why Corbyn is always right, even when he's doing something completely incompatible with why they liked him in the first place.