The Independent Group for Change | Have decided to disband after ten months

Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston join from Conservatives
Back on thread now guys?
3 Tories set to join the group just before PMQs. You'll find the names on twitter.
 
Shamwow said:
It started with me saying "What is the realistic route to getting a people's vote in the first place? Even if Corbyn whipped for it there would be too many Labour rebels."
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The point here - in my view at least - is that it’s clearly too late for a successful PV now.

But that’s mostly due to a complete dominance of the Brexit narrative from Theresa May from mid-2016 to late-2018. JC had no interest in the topic for that period.

That allowed a number of the prevailing views of the time to enter the public’s mind unchallenged; No deal better than a bad deal, We have to leave the ECJ, we have to leave the single market, Any move towards a softer Brexit is ‘betraying the will of the people’, we need to end FoM.

If Corbyn/ Labour had been involved in the debate from 26th June 2016 rather than simply ignoring it, their input would have shaped the debate and Brexit’s direction of travel. But they didn’t, and as I see it, the only plausible outcomes are now No deal, or a version of May’s deal. This didn’t have to be the case, and has been strongly caused by JC’s utter lack of interest in the topic.
 
ThierryHenry said:
This then surely only works if the Lib Dem’s are willing to let themselves be swallowed up by a new party at some point. Is there any indication this happens? Have any prominent LDs said as much?
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Fairly sure there were strong rumours about Cable being in talks to start a new party a while back. Which seemed weird considering he's the Lib Dem leader, but hey nothing surprises me any more.
 
Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston have left the Conservative Party for the Independent Group
 
2cents said:
That’s a different topic, one which I’ve spent enough time on elsewhere on this forum, and one which will lead this thread completely astray. Although if you want we can go at it in the relevant thread.

I think it’s obvious the point I’m making here anyway. Anyone can chair either group without necessarily supporting or condoning the worst actions of their ‘side’.
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It was a rhetorical point. Forget the ‘worst’ actions. By choosing to go out of your way to chair an Israeli lobby group you choose to endorse the status quo of objective occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people. There are other means to encourage a fair and peaceful two state solution without resorting to aligning yourself to a PR machine backed by the Israeli embassy.
 
sun_tzu said:
in the context of labour being accused of institutional antisemitism and that being the response from an official labour account when somebody leaves because of said institutional antisemitism ... yeah I think it adds to the evidence that some parts do not see the problem and in the current context it is of course poor judgement and yet more evidence of the endemic problem as reported by several of the people who have left
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I’m not denying it was poor judgement but it’s worth remembering that this was someone who was a senior advocate of an Israeli lobby group, who in association with the Israeli embassy had been proactively attempting to undermine and silence any criticism of Israel within British politics, a country under international scrutiny for occupation and oppression.

But going back to your previous point, would you consider someone from the Tory party (a party with an Islamophobic problem) proclaiming support for Israel in the hypothetical case of a pro Palestinian MP leaving to be an Islamophobic sentiment? I’m not asking if you agree with it, but whether you think it would constitute a racist sentiment?
 
I really didn’t think any of the Tories would jump ship. A couple more would surely be enough to take down the government??
 
Hopefully they keep picking up more MPs. Can’t stand any of the current political parties to be honest.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I really didn’t think any of the Tories would jump ship. A couple more would surely be enough to take down the government??
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It would be a huge win for Jeremy Corbyns, wouldn't it? The anti-Corbyn sentiment is ultimately what ends this shambles of a Conservative government.

This could be huge for the political landscape of the country, if more moderates from both sides follow these MPs it could be the foundations of a new sensible party.
 
Soubry's letter would hold more water if she hadn't backed every single awful Tory policy on welfare over the last few parliaments. If she was really bothered about hard right policy she'd have left the party years ago, or chosen a different party to join in the first place. Much like her IG colleagues, she's leaving because of Brexit and because her politics aren't in the ascendency in her party right now.
 
That'sHernandez said:
It would be a huge win for Jeremy Corbyns, wouldn't it? The anti-Corbyn sentiment is ultimately what ends this shambles of a Conservative government.

This could be huge for the political landscape of the country, if more moderates from both sides follow these MPs it could be the foundations of a new sensible party.
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Let’s see what actual policies they put forward before we rush to labelling them the saviours of the current political quagmire.

So far all we have is anti-Corbyn sentiment and being a little cross at Brexit.
 
Kaos said:
But going back to your previous point, would you consider someone from the Tory party (a party with an Islamophobic problem) proclaiming support for Israel in the hypothetical case of a pro Palestinian MP leaving to be an Islamophobic sentiment? I’m not asking if you agree with it, but whether you think it would constitute a racist sentiment?
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yes i think so - I mean the context of it being an institutional problem is not as prevalent as it currently is within labour but certainly in a similar environment if a conservative MP left the party and said the main reason was a toxic atmosphere of islamaphobia and then the young conservatives tweeted out basically good riddance yay for israel then indeed I do think there would be a similar outcry and the tweet would be seen as very much a reflection of that attitude and reinforcing that there is indeed a problem with the party
 
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I look forward to Jeremy Hunt telling the EU that the Conservative's can't be trusted now because of the defections
 
Dobba said:
This group definitely weren't red Tories though.
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Galloway_PURRRRfect.gif
 
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This feels much more like the time Zac Goldsmith quit the Tories than anything else, tbh. Would hardly be amazed to see them back as Tory candidates in the next election given that resignation statement.
 
Kaos said:
By choosing to go out of your way to chair an Israeli lobby group you choose to endorse the status quo of objective occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.
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“By choosing to go out of your way to chair a Palestine lobby group you choose to endorse the status quo of glorification of Palestinian terrorism and rejection of the legitimacy of Israel.”

See how this works? Must be confusing for those who are members of both groups. Of course we could just accept that many well-intentioned people don’t view things in such zero-sum terms and see no necessary contradiction between support for Palestinian rights and friendship with Israel, or vice versa.
 
Hammerfell said:
Shocked Anna Soubry went through with something.
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I look forward to her follow up letter later:
"The government has pinky promised me that they will at some point do everything in their power to address the issues I raised earlier and so I formally withdraw my resignation"
 
Tory defectors say they could still support government

They write: “We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics.

"There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measures to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services.

"But we now feel honour bound to put our constituents’ and country’s interests first…

“We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.”

Source:Sky News
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
Tory defectors say they could still support government

They write: “We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics.

"There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measures to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services.

"But we now feel honour bound to put our constituents’ and country’s interests first…

“We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.”

Source:Sky News
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:lol:
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
Tory defectors say they could still support government

They write: “We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics.

"There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measures to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services.

"But we now feel honour bound to put our constituents’ and country’s interests first…

“We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.”

Source:Sky News
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Seems like common sense, what’s wrong with that?
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
Tory defectors say they could still support government

They write: “We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics.

"There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measures to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services.

"But we now feel honour bound to put our constituents’ and country’s interests first…

“We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.”

Source:Sky News
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So who on earth's interests were they putting first before?...
 
Drifter said:
Been deleted.
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Oh that's a shame.


It was something along the lines of "There is a hisory of break way parties formed by ex labour and ex tories, oswald mosley party in 1932"

Thought it was a decent enough joke.
 
2cents said:
“By choosing to go out of your way to chair a Palestine lobby group you choose to endorse the status quo of glorification of Palestinian terrorism and rejection of the legitimacy of Israel.”

See how this works? Must be confusing for those who are members of both groups. Of course we could just accept that many well-intentioned people don’t view things in such zero-sum terms and see no necessary contradiction between support for Palestinian rights and friendship with Israel, or vice versa.
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You’re drawing false equivalence between what’s official government policy of one nation, backed by the world’s sole superpower, and extremist elements of another so that parallel doesn’t quite work. Ryan isn’t a member of both groups either, she’s chair of the Israeli group all while being vocal in her distaste with MPs being involved with the other. So it’s fair to say her impartiality in this is void. Hence why it is understandable why those who harbour sympathy with the Palestinian cause within the Labour Party could feel vindicated with someone like her leaving the party.

The tweet itself was stupid and unnecessary but it hardly constitutes anti-semitism, just as it wouldn’t be in my opinion deemed islamophobic in the hypothetical reverse scenario.
 
sun_tzu said:
yes i think so - I mean the context of it being an institutional problem is not as prevalent as it currently is within labour but certainly in a similar environment if a conservative MP left the party and said the main reason was a toxic atmosphere of islamaphobia and then the young conservatives tweeted out basically good riddance yay for israel then indeed I do think there would be a similar outcry and the tweet would be seen as very much a reflection of that attitude and reinforcing that there is indeed a problem with the party
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See I don’t think it’s less prevalent in the Tory party, but rather it gets brushed aside to the extent that even a senior Tory calling for an inquiry gets dismissed. I’d also agree to disagree with the notion it would generate a similar outcry.
 
These defectors need to push for a by-election to give them any kind of legitimacy, but also it would provide a test for the mood of actual voters.

If they were to hold their seats, then it would be big,

Otherwise these are just a bunch of rich twats who have just changed where they sit in the HoC
 
sun_tzu said:
Tom Watson on LBC
"Luciana was bullied out by racists"
Over to you jezbollah... What you gonna do about it
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/deputy-leader-tom-watson-says-15857976
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He also said it was a tiny minority of mostly new members. Its of course abhorrent behaviour but beyond adopting the IHRA and insisting zero tolerance towards anti-semitism or any form of bigotry, what do you expect Corbyn to do? They’re not MPs but rather bigoted idiots on social media. What would you have him do?
 
Kaos said:
See I don’t think it’s less prevalent in the Tory party, but rather it gets brushed aside to the extent that even a senior Tory calling for an inquiry gets dismissed. I’d also agree to disagree with the notion it would generate a similar outcry.
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It's hypothetical to an extent... I mean no conservative MPs are quitting because of it.

That said if a Conservative muslim MP had been treated like Luciana and we now had a senior conservative on the radio saying racist bullies drove them out... Along with other MP's and councillors quitting citing similar accusations then I personally think it would get similar coverage ... Of course it's hypothetical as we only have one of these situations in reality but certainly it seems there is a problem there


https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/deputy-leader-tom-watson-says-15857976

"Racist bullies drove Luciana Berger out of the labour party"
That's the quote from Tom Watson the deputy leader
Surely jez either has to say he's wrong and sack him... Or admit he's right and sort it out
Over to you jezbollah
 
Tibs said:
These defectors need to push for a by-election to give them any kind of legitimacy, but also it would provide a test for the mood of actual voters.

If they were to hold their seats, then it would be big,

Otherwise these are just a bunch of rich twats who have just changed where they sit in the HoC
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I think you have hit the nail on the head here. It is an interesting development though as they now number more than DUP in Parliament so you have to wonder if the PM will have to start pandering to them as well.
 
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