All the evidence needed to show why Remain would lose again.
The Independent Group for Change | Have decided to disband after ten months
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
All the evidence needed to show why Remain would lose again.
This is a good post and it makes sense when broken down like that, thank you.
Do you have any thoughts on what would be the most constructive way to criticise the actions of the Israeli Government against Palestinians?
Looks to me like Owen is the one frothing with rage whilst the rest of wait and see how things play out.
The attitude and approach of people like Owen Jones is precisely why many are turned off and are ripe for picking by a centrist party. He comes off as a whinger with a chip on his shoulder, despite his heart (probably) being in the right place.
That's an odd take on a tweet calling out hypocrisy i must say. Owen Jones is a little too impassioned at times and some of his articles are bull but you seem to just be moaning about him rather than his very valid point here?
Calling out bullshit and hypocrisy should be the number one job of political journalists in my book.
Yes, I quoted the tweet to take isssue with how comes across - that’s allowed no? I didn’t say I disagreed per se, but rather the way in which Jones commentates is generally a turn off for many.
Tbf there is also a certain irony in probably the most prominent guardian writers having a go at the new party and writing that they are going to have the press on side.
The way she says "I feel excited" is a bit horny
Tories are joining up with them!
Ive got a feeing there are a number of Tory resignations drafted in the expectation that May doesnt get anything from the EU.
Expect a steady drip from both sides
I hope so tbh - the quicker the DUP lose any power they have the better.
Another great take, in which Owen Jones = the press
I always struggle with that approach. It would lead to some kind of p.c. catalogue of what to say and what not, and I don't think that's desirable or even just useful. I also have to say that my focus isn't as narrow, as I think Israelis (and non-Israeli Jews, who are inevitably part of this) have many reasons to feel threatened as well.
As I see it, one should simply (well...) strive for a realistic overall picture and reasonable standards, and go by that. Also being aware that a lot of things to be found will be distorted by bias or outright propagandism.
Not much help there admittedly, what I can do is give a link to a take on the subject that I liked. It's a blog post on the recent Ilhan Omar controversy from one David Schraub, who imo makes several good points about the American discussion, and the issue in general. I may not agree with everything, but I think he's on the right track with a lot of what he says.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/whe...-anti-semitism-jews-are-caught-in-the-middle/
Indeed at some point labour have to take a stance...
Will they push for a referendum if they can't get an election
If somehow they do get an election what will their policy be regarding a second referendum
I could see a wave of resignations at that point
Plus the more Corbyn sits on the fence the more mps will push for a decision and momentum will attack and threaten to deselect them and that it's self might be enough to push more people to go.
Perhaps the libs will join as they are pretty much an irrelevance at the moment
And of course depending how the next stage of brexit goes you may see the cracks in the conservatives become a bit bigger and a few more fall off the party... Or it could totally fracture and perhaps ken clark could bring over half a dozen or more people at once with him.
YouGov one out today is a bit more drastic (I think their sampling/weighting must be more receptive to unhappy/ex-Labour folk, as they always show larger Tory leads as well)
Much bigger loss from Labour this time, but there's still a big group that changes to "other" or "don't know" even when they're not included.
Also
- 10% of leave voters would back the independents, per this.
Much bigger loss from Labour this time, but there's still a big group that changes to "other" or "don't know" even when they're not included.
Also
- 10% of leave voters would back the independents, per this.The polls are shit in fairness as shown over the past few big elections/EU Ref/Trump
This might be the greatest 1-2 tweet combination in the history of the platform.
Company with unknown backers rather than a party.
Wait and see.
Funny tinge
Wait and see.
We love Tory austerity.
Wait and see.
If you love casually racist shady organisations who like to brutalise the vulnerable, then just be honest and back them because I'm not going to wait and see and hope everyone forgets what their founding statements have been. Oh nearly forgot: you centrist Cnuts.
Wait and see.
Funny tinge
Wait and see.
We love Tory austerity.
Wait and see.
If you love casually racist shady organisations who like to brutalise the vulnerable, then just be honest and back them because I'm not going to wait and see and hope everyone forgets what their founding statements have been. Oh nearly forgot: you centrist Cnuts.
This is a bit of a myth. Polling on Trump was off, but not by very much. Keep in mind that Trump lost the popular vote. EU polling I don't really know about. But there've been a lot of elections since the EU vote which have shown polling to be fairly accurate. It's not perfect by any means, but "the polls are shit" is not a very insightful argument even so.
Also those polls are showing an 8 to 12 point advantage to the conservatives.... That's a long way outside margin of error... And consider just how shambolic the conservatives are at the moment... That does not bode well for labour if they were to get this snap election Corbyn keeps pushing for.
That said I would be interested to see how farrages brexit party would impact the polls particularly if it could capture some of the high profile erg mps as well
What a fecking shambles this mob appear to be already. If you're a 'centrist' group then you inherently shouldn't really have people who are keen on austerity, which is solidly right-wing policy. That's just basic stuff.
Although the polling does suggest Labour may potentially suffer as a result. For all the committed Labour voters out there, you've got plenty who casually vote for them, and who may have done so at the last election because they felt the Tories had shifted too far to the right. In such cases this new party (if it is one) may appeal to them, irrespective of its beliefs and irrespective of how light on policy it is.
Although the polling does suggest Labour may potentially suffer as a result. For all the committed Labour voters out there, you've got plenty who casually vote for them, and who may have done so at the last election because they felt the Tories had shifted too far to the right. In such cases this new party (if it is one) may appeal to them, irrespective of its beliefs and irrespective of how light on policy it is.
Forget Anna Soubry
Every group have different people with different opinions.
Every group have different people with different opinions.
Trying that to...well...them?
In my opinion, political parties should have closely matching viewpoints of their members. Otherwise it's all just electioneering, which is the case currently, and why we are seeing these desertions.
Well yes, but a political party needs to have solid economic principles upon which it should base itself. That's just a given. It's not as if she's just sympathetic or unsure about the cuts implemented - she's actively proud of them. That's not centrist - and if this party is branding itself as centrist then they really shouldn't have people like her in the party. Otherwise they're trying to have their cake and eat it. Why would anyone with even remotely non-right-wing views trust this party now that they've shown they're willing to be subsumed by a pro-austerity agenda if it's advantageous? And why should anyone trust MP's from Labour who're willing to form an actual party with people whose beliefs run contrary to theirs?
This new lot are more right wing than new labour.
They're shaking up politics. Just not too much.
This word centrist. What on earth is it supposed to mean? The word is moderate.
I'd say they basically both mean the same thing generally. Although some could argue a lot of 'centrist' economic ideas - i.e. somewhere between extreme socialism and libertarianism - are often suggested by fairly left-wing parties.
Because our political system is, to say the least, imperfect and requires odd alliances and strange bedfellows to make it work.
Anyway, in the fullness of time the group will shake itself out and settle on whatever values and policies it settles on, at which point inevitably some people currently associated with the group will drift away.
Soubry definitely sticks out more than the other two, Stephen Bush has done a quick piece on it that I think is right
De-select her, I say.
To put the counter to this, the Lib Dems (a centrist party) were in coalition while the spending cuts were implemented, and Labour under Miliband/Balls (centre-left) pledged cuts, but at a slower pace than the Tories ("Osbourne's cuts are too far and too fast" etc).
Austerity - flawed as I believe it to be as a policy response to a recession - was firmly part of the centre ground of British politics.
I am starting to believe this is some kind of performance art. These kind of wishy washy wankers are a big part of what’s wrong with politics and they’ve formed a group to point it out. I wonder if they’re in on the act
It was only part of the centre-ground because economics had shifted substantially to the right. To the point where Cameron/Osborne were often described as tacitly centre-right in spite of the fact that their economic ideals were completely in line with those of a proper right-winger like Thatcher. In that regard I'd say the Liberal Democrats were at the very least centre-right themselves - if you're firmly for free market capitalism and the general erosion of the welfare state then you are right-wing and not centrist. I'd understand such an argument if the Lib Dems had only opted for such a position out of pragmatism but Orange Bookers like Clegg and co were always quite right-leaning anyway. They were only deemed a centrist party because of their liberal social ideals.
This is like the transfer window for politics nerds.
Aye, absolutely. The "you've got to be able to work with the enemy" line doesn't work for me here because I struggle to see how it's going to be at all practical to a group of Labour MP's who've typically been annoyed at the idea of being called red Tories. If they're literally willing to work with full-on pro-austerity MP's then they can't complain about being branded with such labels, juvenile though they may be. Labour MP's can break off without literally welcoming in Tories to their ranks as key, frontline members.