The workable solution to solve the issue is a border in the Irish sea between NI and RUK.
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What do you mean by 'pat each other than back'? For what exactly?
Whenever a leaver comes in here they're asked to put forward their views and people listen and question. It's the leavers who then get annoyed with being questioned and choose not to engage further.
Great, so where are you putting the border between the UK and the EU? If it's not on the island of Ireland is it in the sea between NI and rUK? Or are you suggesting that we don't need a border at all, in which case are you advocating a Single Market arrangement?
It's not down to me to make a workable solution. But what a lot of remainers are saying now is 'it's too difficult to leave, so why bother'. This is all hidden behind legal documents which can be amended if both parties came to an agreement. My point is neither the EU or the UK government want us to leave, so none of the easy options are being taken.
Not sure there'll be enough votes for that in parliament, and if there isn't the DUP would potentially bring down the government over it. Seems bizarre to effectively have a border within a sovereign nation, especially where there hasn't been one before. Although, yes, it's probably the closest we have to something resembling a solution. But it's an unpopular one...which begs the question as to why we'd be implementing it at all.
They are too used to not being challenged.
If you want your arguments to be taken seriously and credibly then you need to be arguing within the realm of what might actually happen. Otherwise you're discussing hypotheticals which aren't going to be taken seriously.
The EU don't need to give us any leeway if they don't want to. Which they clearly don't. It's up to us to find a viable solution because we're the party that's leaving. As it stands we can't find a viable solution to the issue that can be widely agreed upon. Brexiteers continually fail to present any solution that's viable and workable, then get all stroppy when other people point out to them that their arguments aren't based in fact and don't work in practicality.
Such a crap analogy that
For France the subject is dealt through ordinances for customs, citizens rights, financial services or transports among other things, some local industries will be supported financially to compensate the potential consequences of a no deal too.
Here you have for example the jest of the ordinance for the financial services published in February, the actual ordinance is available in french on legifrance.
I'd say it's mostly because of the promotion system. Lefties are much more likely to get promoted.
A lot of people in here, like me, aren't remainers, because we're not even British. With Stratchan above I was simply arguing against his logic because it was illogical and nonsensical. He had no facts to back himself up and he couldn't counter any facts presented to him with anything other than "i'm done for now" or "we'll figure it out" or the usual stuff Leaver's say in this thread when presented with hard, cold facts.
Maybe if the leaver's could actually present perfectly logical reasons and facts for why leaving the EU won't be a terrible thing for the UK, or in Strachan's case, how it can in any way give him what he wants in terms of reduced immigration and "being better for the environment" whatever the feck that's supposed to mean.
It always goes one way with leaver's in this thread. They come in, say they voted to leave, and say why. People debate those reasons with facts that generally show their reason why doesn't actually make sense. They ask them to try help sort out how the GFA can be honoured, they can never give an answer. They also refuse to in any way acknowledge the facts that they're given and it usually just results in them calling the "remainers" arrogant because their argument has fallen flat.
Well hopefully they are all so ashamed of themselves for voting to leave that they don't want to let us know who they are.
Nah I don't think that's it at all. The majority of the Caf are a young-ish population, combined with a lot of Irish people (who are almost unanimously pro-EU), some Scottish etc. and you probably get a very accurate ratio of leaver's to remainer's in here, actually. Plus I imagine a lot of leaver's on the Caf are reluctant to come forward given the roasting's their colleagues get in here.
By not having the DUP in your party, could have been solved months ago
No, I mean literally google your question: "What preparation have eu countries done?" and the second result is a European Commission press release entitled: "Brexit Preparedness: EU completes preparations for possible "no-deal" scenario on 12 April".
In case you're interested, the first result is a BBC article outlining the same press release and going into further detail for several individual member nations of the EU.
Certainly would never argue its a popular idea. But if we are going to leave the EU and if there is going to be no border in Ireland it is the only way I can see of making it work.
Its either remain, leave but be locked into alignment with the EU anyway (so BINO) or a border in the Irish Sea.
I dont see what other solution there can be.
Brexiters dont either. If they believed the technology bullshit they peddle they wouldnt lose their shit about the backstop.
Honestly what is the point with some of you? It becomes 10 extreme remainers (ironically most are not even from the UK) against 1 leaver which you continually patronise, insult and belittle. Then you proclaim victory because the leaver can't be bothered to make any further points without being insulted about his opinion.
I haven't insulted, patronised or belittled you, so I would very much like it if you could answer my question above please.
Why? Because Niall and his cabal of Merry Men running this place are commies?
I'm not even an extreme Remainer. I recognise there are severe problems within the EU and I find a lot of the People's Vote mob to be cringe inducing as feck. But I'm tired of Brexiteers who, after their arguments get dismantled with ease, resort to moaning about how Remainers aren't being nice to them instead of recognising that their arguments are incorrect and that a bit of introspection might come in handy. Apologies if I came across as a dick at all because I don't mean to - it's just that it's fecking tiresome to see Brexiteers trying to defend this whole process over and over again without actually mounting any coherent arguments, precisely because there are none.
I disagree. The forum is centre left to left generally. The Brexit poll on here back in the day was 86% remain. Brexiteer's and right wing people are a minority on here.
Because the scouts promote posters they like and will generally like posters with similar views to their own. Because they're human.
Isnt that what I said?
Maybe leavers should consider why they’re increasingly isolated and smaller in number, not cry about being bullied by ‘remainers’.
There is nothing ironic about people not from the UK having an opinion on a UK event which directly impacts us.
I agree lots of people who voted to stay in the EU without giving much thought to the GFA and all sorts of other things.The people who chose to disrupt the status quo have a greater responsibility to understand the impacts that will have. The people who took the safer option have less to justify. You can criticise them for other things related to status quo thinking, but not this.
To vote for it for two reasons that might work out, while paying no attention the things which definitely will happen, things that you deem unimportant but are critical to people's day-to-day lives, is selfish and cruel.
Apologies for the misunderstanding about the leap of faith - I misread. However the Brexit vote, the way you've described it, also sounds like a leap of faith. You're doing it in the hope that it reduces immigration, but it might not. It doesn't require the government to. Its a leap of faith.
I think waiting and seeing is sensible. I also think analysing the past evidence and making judgments rooted in that evidence, rather than what you think will happen irrespective of that evidence, is sensible. People who are already sure how it will work out are fooling themselves, in my view. But people who are confident that Brexit will deliver a reduction in immigration are fooling themselves too, based on the evidence pre- and post-Brexit.
I don't think you've asked me any questions I haven't answered, but I'll be happy to do so. What do you want to know? Just to confirm, I'm not a remain voter. And I agree with @Josep Dowling. I find the attacks on you distasteful and unhelpful.
Facts and compelling arguements would go a long way. Most of you would rather complain about the frosty reception you received though... Then slink off playing the victim.
Apparently we're the problem though. Libcafe strikes again...
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Not exactly. The forum is more centre left. There are only a few bedroom Bolsheviks when you get down to it.
I'd say the demographic is more middle class too when it comes to the UK and Ireland. I bet most have some higher education.
how is that disagreeing with me?
And that's my point really. There are solutions to the Irish border issue, but Brexiteers (and not just the DUP) don't like any of them. They also hate the compromise positions, but attack Remainers for not doing more to facilitate their viewpoint.
It's been three years and we're no closer to finding a solution to Brexit that satisfies Brexiteers, until we get to a point where they come up with a workable solution they actually want I'm not sure what we can do for them.
how is that disagreeing with me?
You disagreed with my reasoning. Do you really think the CAF would be so left wing and middle class if it was a completely open board?
Yes.
Pretty sure we had this conversation already and @Damien gave examples of other forums that are basically the exact same.
The internet in general is dominated by younger and therefore more left-leaning people. And forums mainly attract middle-class, educated people.
@Massive Spanner @Classical Mechanic I always confused you two.
Probably the two-word name, double-s on the first word and the fact a spanner is a mechanic's tool.
I'm gonna make two alt accounts: Massive Mechanic and Classical Spanner. See how that goes down.
Probably the two-word name, double-s on the first word and the fact a spanner is a mechanic's tool.
I'm gonna make two alt accounts: Massive Mechanic and Classical Spanner. See how that goes down.
Their ideal solution at this point is pretty much no deal, which is basically tantamount to not having any solution at all because you recognise none exist.
Look at other places online with big interaction. Right wingers are there but they’re always smaller in number despite the noise they make.
That's a fair point, it seems logical enough.
The problem with the left-right conversation is that by US-UK standards I'm probably a raging communist when by french standards I'm center right.
Considerably older than you of course, and wiser and more knowledgeable too, naturally.
I voted Remain but this thread did almost change my mind at one point I must admit. I came to accept it as just unbalanced, with a lot of contributors who don't like Britain or don't live in it. In real life I haven't come across many people who believe absolutely everything about Remain or Brexit is one hundred percent right or wrong, most have tried to weigh up the pros and cons of both sides of the arguments as best they can, but that seems to be an alien concept in this thread, so it has become rather tedious I'm afraid.
Simple solution: ignore Murica. They’re too far gone. As you say, what they think is left wing is what we would call the Tories.
It's odd to me that this forum is majority left leaning, but irrespective of that the Brexit voters are definitely underrepresented. Which seems a pretty clear indication that the atmosphere towards Leave voters is so oppressive that there's no reason to get involved. Lots of people on here celebrate that atmosphere too, while simultaneously taking the piss out of Leave voters for not having a voice. It's a win win for people of that persuasion, and while they might not be the majority they're certainly vocal enough to shape the overall conversation.
@Massive Spanner's point about Forum demographics in general does make sense though