Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Smores said:
You're a classy guy aren't you.

There's a huge recovery period with chemotherapy and really they shouldn't even be around large groups. Never mind be put under stress from colleagues using a cancer patient for publicity.
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My girlfriend went to a festival during one round of chemotherapy. It depends on the treatment you’re getting of course, but in general you're not just sitting around invalided “with chemotherapy” all the time... in fact you can seem perfectly healthy towards the end of a course.

Colin’s kinda right that the phrasing is a bit weird. Unless she’s actively skipping a course, or coming straight from one when she should be resting - neither of which she should remotely be doing of course, then she’s simply “doing something during the period of time you’re okay doing things” ... in which case it’s a rather gratuitous reference to the fact she’s having chemotherapy.
 
Smores said:
You're a classy guy aren't you.

There's a huge recovery period with chemotherapy and really they shouldn't even be around large groups. Never mind be put under stress from colleagues using a cancer patient for publicity.
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So, you are saying she can't do anything at all whilst undergoing chemo? In which case, she shouldn't be going to the meeting at all. In any case, she isn't "taking time out".

Edit: What he said ^
 
Mockney said:
My girlfriend went to a festival during one round of chemotherapy. It depends on the treatment you’re getting of course, but in general you're not just sitting around invalided “with chemotherapy” all the time... in fact you can seem perfectly healthy towards the end of a course.

Colin’s kinda right that the phrasing is a bit weird. Unless she’s actively skipping a course, or coming straight from one when she should be resting - neither of which she should remotely be doing of course, then she’s simply “doing something during the period of time you’re okay doing things” ... in which case it’s a rather gratuitous reference to the fact she’s having chemotherapy.
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It depends where you are in your treatment of course and the level to which you're immune system is compromised at the time. If she was in a period where she was fine then she'd already be at work so wouldn't need to take time off. My boss certainly wasn't fine after a day or a week.

I don't know the specifics of her treatment plan and neither does Colin. If you're first response to those tweets is to question the capability/account of a cancer patient then you really need to reevaluate.
 
Smores said:
It depends where you are in your treatment of course and the level to which you're immune system is compromised at the time. If she was in a period where she was fine then she'd already be at work so wouldn't need to take time off. My boss certainly wasn't fine after a day or a week.

I don't know the specifics of her treatment plan and neither does Colin. If you're first response to those tweets is to question the capability/account of a cancer patient then you really need to reevaluate.
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My first response was to question Laura K's ability to write a coherent sentence. If Formby wasn't fit, she wouldn't be meeting anybody and nor would anyone expect her to.
 
It's not so much what activists have posted or said. It is wholly Corbyn's response. If he condemned it with the same vigour that he champions the Palestinian cause then maybe people would be more circumspect. The fact is, that he does not. He is luke-warm and rote-like with his statements about antisemitism. He goes to Jewish group meetings and says nothing, leaving all the talking to Seumas Milne. He stands on an anti-racist ticket, taking every tiny opportunity to accuse the Tory party of being racists and guess what? He has racists and bigots in his party - shed loads of them. Now even his own deepest prejudices are being exposed. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@Silva
 
Adisa said:
Think the anti semitism stuff has been intentionally blown out of proportion. That said, it is clear there is a problem.
Aaron Bastani never fails to come across like a twat.
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If the Caf microcosmos is in any way representative, the situation is intolerably bad.

Just look at Silva actively fighting against the opposition to actual Nazi propaganda, even calling it "benign" at one point. Then simply continuing after being informed on what he's doing from multiple posters, and feeling so confident about it that he went into counterattacking mode.

One could now say this was only the behaviour of one individual. But the next observation is that there was (and still is) almost no criticism from his own camp, at least as far as I can tell the posters apart. The desire is for things to continue as normal - so the basic takeaway is that this is treated as politically acceptable. Probably uncomfortable for some, but nothing to break ranks for. A quite well-known dynamic.
 
Synco said:
If the Caf microcosmos is in any way representative, the situation is intolerably bad.

Just look at Silva actively fighting against the opposition to actual Nazi propaganda, even calling it "benign" at one point. Then simply continuing after being informed on what he's doing from multiple posters, and feeling so confident about it that he went into counterattacking mode.

One could now say this was only the behaviour of one individual. But the next observation is that there was (and still is) almost no criticism from his own camp, at least as far as I can tell the posters apart. The desire is for things to continue as normal - so the basic takeaway is that this is treated as politically acceptable. Probably uncomfortable for some, but nothing to break ranks for. A quite well-known dynamic.
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There are indeed anti semetic elements in Labour, might even be institutional for all I know. But I am convinced part of this is an effort to kill any criticism of the Israeli government. It is difficult to convince me otherwise. Margaret Hodge's own words give it away.
That said, this issue isn't going until Corbyn is gone.
 
Synco said:
If the Caf microcosmos is in any way representative, the situation is intolerably bad.

Just look at Silva actively fighting against the opposition to actual Nazi propaganda, even calling it "benign" at one point. Then simply continuing after being informed on what he's doing from multiple posters, and feeling so confident about it that he went into counterattacking mode.

One could now say this was only the behaviour of one individual. But the next observation is that there was (and still is) almost no criticism from his own camp, at least as far as I can tell the posters apart. The desire is for things to continue as normal - so the basic takeaway is that this is treated as politically acceptable. Probably uncomfortable for some, but nothing to break ranks for. A quite well-known dynamic.
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@Silva

I think what you did was very naughty and rude.

Adisa said:
There are indeed anti semetic elements in Labour, might even be institutional for all I know. But I am convinced part of this is an effort to kill any criticism of the Israeli government. It is difficult to convince me otherwise. Margaret Hodge's own words give it away.
That said, this issue isn't going until Corbyn is gone.
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Pretty much this.
 
Honest John said:
It's not so much what activists have posted or said. It is wholly Corbyn's response. If he condemned it with the same vigour that he champions the Palestinian cause then maybe people would be more circumspect. The fact is, that he does not. He is luke-warm and rote-like with his statements about antisemitism. He goes to Jewish group meetings and says nothing, leaving all the talking to Seumas Milne. He stands on an anti-racist ticket, taking every tiny opportunity to accuse the Tory party of being racists and guess what? He has racists and bigots in his party - shed loads of them. Now even his own deepest prejudices are being exposed. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@Silva
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what's his response meant to be? before all this started he had motions in parliament to bring jews to the uk from areas where they are persecuted (see, rise of ISIS), he helped organise rallys against white supremacists etc. etc. he adopted the harshest antisemitism guidelines of any UK party and it's actively being dealt with - some of the interference panaroma was so shocked about being emails saying "yo do it quicker ffs"

of course labour has a shed load of racists, the uk is an extremely racist country, the fact that so many of you are shocked by this says more about your sheltered little worlds than it does labour
 
Harry Harries said:
I got back late last night so only saw the last 15 minutes, but Sam Matthews and the woman with the haircut, was their position within the party complaint handlers? Genuinely asking because I didn't understand if they had been personally attacked (which seems most likely), or if the nature of the complaints proved too difficult or something.
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I know only subhuman scum quote themselves but I didn't receive a reply and I'd like to know the answer, were the two staffers suffering from mental health suffering from abuse they'd received or because they were crippled by their job as complaint handlers + the complaints to do with antisemitism that they received?
 
Harry Harries said:
I know only subhuman scum quote themselves but I didn't receive a reply and I'd like to know the answer, were the two staffers suffering from mental health suffering from abuse they'd received or because they were crippled by their job as complaint handlers + the complaints to do with antisemitism that they received?
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Mathews isn't Jewish so I doubt it's antisemitism directed at him
 
Adisa said:
That said, this issue isn't going until Corbyn is gone.
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In reality, it isn’t just Corbyn though. It would start to happen again as long as Labour have a socialist leader who is pro-Palestine.

It’s quite clear when you see the recent media treatment of Ilhan Omar and AOC on the other side of the pond.
 
Synco said:
Being your shameless self, I see.
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Stop your making me blush.

''Waa" ''Waa'' Sliva said something I didn't like and you didn't criticise him ''Waa'' ''Waa''

Thats your claim right ? That because none of us similar left posters on a football forum didn't criticism him(I'm not his mother)that means something deeper in regards to a political party that has over 200,000 members ?
 
ZupZup said:
In reality, it isn’t just Corbyn though. It would start to happen again as long as Labour have a socialist leader who is pro-Palestine.

It’s quite clear when you see the recent media treatment of Ilhan Omar and AOC on the other side of the pond.
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It started under Milliband but it didn't stick after the his dad is a commie jew thing
 
Is it possible to be Pro-Palestine, and not be antisemitic in politics?
 
villain said:
Is it possible to be Pro-Palestine, and not be antisemitic in politics?
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The Israel lobby have so much bastardised the debate that one can't have a debate about Palestine without bringing antisemitism into it.
 
Silva said:
what's his response meant to be? before all this started he had motions in parliament to bring jews to the uk from areas where they are persecuted (see, rise of ISIS), he helped organise rallys against white supremacists etc. etc. he adopted the harshest antisemitism guidelines of any UK party and it's actively being dealt with - some of the interference panaroma was so shocked about being emails saying "yo do it quicker ffs"

of course labour has a shed load of racists, the uk is an extremely racist country, the fact that so many of you are shocked by this says more about your sheltered little worlds than it does labour
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Name some countries that are less racist than the UK
 
Silva said:
Mathews isn't Jewish so I doubt it's antisemitism directed at him
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Shit like that just turns an already limp mass of people completely off, 'cos it undermines any genuine problem by being so baitly one-sided yet is dressed up like it's a fecking smoking gun. It came across as complete hackery and surprise surprise, has exacerbated the situation and caused even MORE divisiveness. Nice one Panorama you wallads.
 
villain said:
Is it possible to be Pro-Palestine, and not be antisemitic in politics?
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Definitely.

A good starting point would be appreciating that there are 8 million people living in Israel who have diverse and varied opinions about Palestine. And that’s without even getting into the foolishness of lumping the Jewish diaspora into one big amorphous mass alongside them.

Not saying you do this, personally, obviously. Just highlighting the fallacies behind a lot of the antisemitism that’s being discussed here.
 
Silva said:
is this the part where you tell us the uk is actually good because we're not doing a genocide like myanmar? because if that's the extremely stupid logic you're after, then i have a uk political party with the harshest anti-semitism rules to sell you
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No. You say the UK is a very racist country. I need a baseline with which to compare that statement.
 
villain said:
Is it possible to be Pro-Palestine, and not be antisemitic in politics?
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It depends what you mean by pro-palestine because i think you can if you limit it to wanting a peaceful resolution to both sides. That's a reasonable approach taken by many politicians.

If being pro-palestine means you care about it's interests in the capacity of israeli intolerance and crimes against palestine then not really. That would put you in the category of being critical of israel and therefore political pressure groups would try and paint you as anti-Israel. That's just international politics though it's hardly unique to israel.
 
villain said:
Is it possible to be Pro-Palestine, and not be antisemitic in politics?
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Of course it is. I’d argue that as long as you make a genuine effort to understand the factors which drove the creation of Israel and continue to drive the identification of a large majority of the world’s Jews with Zionism as an idea, then you’re on fairly safe and solid ground. You don’t have to sympathize with the idea that Israel’s creation was a good idea in hindsight (e.g. that it should come about at the expense of Palestinian rights), or that Zionism is a positive force today. But without empathy for the implications of ancient, medieval, and modern Jewish history, it’s a short way down a conspiratorial path which very easily and often ends in antisemitism.

In my opinion the biggest problem with the type of pro-Palestinian activism Corbyn has been involved in his whole life is not the blatant, explicit Jew-hatred you’d associate with the far-right, but a total lack of appreciation for the appeal of Zionism as the major historical response of Jews to the very real problems they’ve faced in getting to grips with modernity. It’s the kind of attitude which expresses itself in statements like “Zionism = Racism” and it’s a surefire way of signaling to Jews that their distinct modern historical experience as a people does not really interest you beyond general lessons concerning nationalism and fascism.
 
Honest John said:
Probably not. Being 'pro' something implies that you are against things that are against the thing that you are pro about.

Pro in this context is a divisive word.
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Disagree with this wholeheartedly. It is not as if both entities are on equal footing. One can be pro Palestine and still not anti Israel.
 
2cents said:
It’s the kind of attitude which expresses itself in statements like “Zionism = Racism” and it’s a surefire way of signaling to Jews that their distinct modern historical experience as a people does not really interest you beyond general lessons concerning nationalism and fascism.
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what's someone who thinks ethnostates are inherently racist supposed to do? shut up about it? give a long rambling pre-amble that's going to be ignored anyway?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Definitely.

A good starting point would be appreciating that there are 8 million people living in Israel who have diverse and varied opinions about Palestine. And that’s without even getting into the foolishness of lumping the Jewish diaspora into one big amorphous mass alongside them.

Not saying you do this, personally, obviously. Just highlighting the fallacies behind a lot of the antisemitism that’s being discussed here.
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Smores said:
It depends what you mean by pro-palestine because i think you can if you limit it to wanting a peaceful resolution to both sides. That's a reasonable approach taken by many politicians.

If being pro-palestine means you care about it's interests in the capacity of israeli intolerance and crimes against palestine then not really. That would put you in the category of being critical of israel and therefore political pressure groups would try and paint you as anti-Israel. That's just international politics though it's hardly unique to israel.
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2cents said:
Of course it is. I’d argue that as long as you make a genuine effort to understand the factors which drove the creation of Israel and continue to drive the identification of a large majority of the world’s Jews with Zionism as an idea, then you’re on fairly safe and solid ground. You don’t have to sympathize with the idea that Israel’s creation was a good idea in hindsight (e.g. that it should come about at the expense of Palestinian rights), or that Zionism is a positive force today. But without empathy for the implications of ancient, medieval, and modern Jewish history, it’s a short way down a conspiratorial path which very easily and often ends in antisemitism.

In my opinion the biggest problem with the type of pro-Palestinian activism Corbyn has been involved in his whole life is not the blatant, explicit Jew-hatred you’d associate with the far-right, but a total lack of appreciation for the appeal of Zionism as the major historical response of Jews to the very real problems they’ve faced in getting to grips with modernity. It’s the kind of attitude which expresses itself in statements like “Zionism = Racism” and it’s a surefire way of signaling to Jews that their distinct modern historical experience as a people does not really interest you beyond general lessons concerning nationalism and fascism.
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Are there any British politicians who are a good example of being pro-palestine, without being accused of antisemitism?

I'm asking because I know very little on the issue.
 
Sweet Square said:
Stop your making me blush.

''Waa" ''Waa'' Sliva said something I didn't like and you didn't criticise him ''Waa'' ''Waa''
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You can spell it out: apologism of Nazi propaganda. Or perhaps you'd rather not?
Sweet Square said:
Thats your claim right ? That because none of us similar left posters on a football forum didn't criticism him(I'm not his mother)that means something deeper in regards to a political party that has over 200,000 members ?
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Yes, that's what I was on about. As in: That kind of stuff is waved through unopposed.

There are other kinds of bigotry where there's no chance of this happening. By the way, you didn't just say nothing, you take his side against the criticism, in your usual degoratory tone.
 
With respect all the above posts saying yes are only discussing it from the viewpoint of israeli/Palestinian citizens.

You can't really be pro-palestine without being against the actions of the israeli government so failing to mention the leadership is a pretty glaring omission.
 
Smores said:
If being pro-palestine means you care about it's interests in the capacity of israeli intolerance and crimes against palestine then not really. That would put you in the category of being critical of israel and therefore political pressure groups would try and paint you as anti-Israel. That's just international politics though it's hardly unique to israel.
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But isn't this a major problem? How can there be a proper debate when what you just highlight is true? But it is more than just politics. It has made putting any pressure on Israel to seek a two state solution almost impossible.
 
Adisa said:
But isn't this a major problem? How can there be a proper debate when what you just highlight is true? But it is more than just politics. It has made putting any pressure on Israel to seek a two state solution almost impossible.
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one state is better anyway, palestians should also have the right of return
 
villain said:
Are there any British politicians who are a good example of being pro-palestine, without being accused of antisemitism?

I'm asking because I know very little on the issue.
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I don’t follow British politics close enough to answer. A good example of a principled activist who has advocated on behalf of Palestinian rights his entire life without being drawn towards the antisemitic gutter would be Peter Thatchell.
 
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