Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[sun_tzu]

This comes across quite condescending tbh.
I'm trying to ask questions on perspectives of actual people, not google results, particularly as this is a topic i'm not familiar with.

Fair enough.... I'm shocked people could not be aware of the final solution... Hopefully you can see it was a totally innapropriate thing to publish though

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The friends of Labour Palestine thing seems to be absolutely moronic but not outright convincing that Labour MP’s are anti-semetic.

I was just arguing the point that it isn't really a surprise that this group of politicians get called antisemitic in this trigger happy Twitter era of slurs, plenty of them thoroughly deserve it in that context. If they really hold a deep seated hated of the Jewish people is a different matter.

 

[villain]

Fair enough.... I'm shocked people could not be aware of the final solution... Hopefully you can see it was a totally innapropriate thing to publish though

Of course, very stupid thing to do.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I was just arguing the point that it isn't really a surprise that this group of politicians get called antisemitic in this trigger happy Twitter era of slurs, plenty of them thoroughly deserve it in that context. If they really hold a deep seated hated of the Jewish people is a different matter.

So is it PC gone mad by the twitter mob or genuinely deserved? To me that there is clearly an issue as there is generally no smoke without fire but it has been overblown by the media. But happy to be proven wrong and call Corbyn a genuine anti-semite if he is one.

 

[Silva]

In Israel/Palestine there are two national movements with exclusivist claims to the entire land. They have different national languages, religions, have different names for every hill and village, different national heroes to go on their currency and name their streets after, different national anthems to express the national will, different national holidays. They have entirely different ideas about the nature of the country and the principles by which it should be run.

This is not a civil rights issue. Without a one-state solution where both sides are willing to relegate their national identities and aspirations to a civil sphere with no political implications, or a two-state solution where they agree to split the land and separate from each other as much as possible into two ethnically-defines states (which was the logic behind the UN partition plan and Oslo), then victory for one side means defeat for the other. If you think the Palestinian side of this equation is irrelevant, that all the Palestinians have been fighting for is ‘equality’, then you probably don’t take the Palestinians seriously as a nation, and you certainly don’t understand the conflict and how it has developed.

how different is all of this to south africa under apartheid? it was a country of multiple languages and cultures where one people subjugated the rest and caused militant action from people who wanted to kill them all and drive them out of the country

It’s not ‘criticism’ I’m talking about. Israel is deserving of much criticism. It’s the total mass campaign aimed at delegitimising an entire national movement, while concurrently supporting a rival national movement.

and there is a total mass campaign aimed at legitimising every little thing israel does, it's not a disproportionate campaign otherwise it would go the same as, say

Turkish/Iraqi/Iranian/Syrian actions.

when these come up, there are significantly fewer western people on either side, not because israel gets it specially, but because it's a more western centric dispute and more people have their finger in the pie, if one of those countries had the same level of western support they'd get the same level of criticism, if we were currently selling the Syrian government chemical weapons there'd be more said and written about Syria - but it's less western centric and less will be said and written about it

see also, people talking about the UK supporting SA in Yemen, it gets some very strong criticism but because there's so few people defending UK actions it gets zero traffic here, if we had oscie still around talking about how selling weapons is good for the economy there'd be more said but he's not around and no one says it

 

[2cents]

I agree with this, I mean clearly the actions of some MP's on social media is very questionable regarding this 'Final Solution' stuff (& more i'm sure)
But I don't think i've ever seen a prominent British politician support Palestine without being accused of antisemitism.

There’s a couple of things to consider though. Pretty much every mainstream British politician supports in principle the creation of a Palestinian state. So we need to understand what exactly is meant by ‘support for Palestine’, just as we need to consider what is meant by ‘criticism of Israel.’ They will not mean the same things to all people.

Also, while it’s true that the charge of antisemitism is often flung around with no care, we need to consider why it is taken more seriously in some cases than in others. In Corbyn’s case, the type of activism he has engaged in on behalf of the Palestinians for his entire life has involved associating with and working for antisemites, explaining away or rationalizing their actions, and indulging in conspiratorial explanations for events in the Middle East which resemble antisemitic tropes. These have all been documented throughout this thread. So it makes people less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on matters such as disciplinary procedures targeting antisemites within his party, and on the issue as a whole.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So is it PC gone mad by the twitter mob or genuinely deserved? To me that there is clearly an issue as there is generally no smoke without fire but it has been overblown by the media. But happy to be proven wrong and call Corbyn a genuine anti-semite if he is one.

When Corbyn defended the artist that painted that Jewish conspiracy mural I don't see how he could complain when people started calling him an antisemite. If you're a public figure acting in a racist way then you are going to get panned for it even if he was just being thick.

It is overblown by the media and it is being used as a tool to undermine him but they're handling it pathetically and throwing fuel on the fire. I don't think there's any Israeli conspiracy at play here, just an inept politician determined to hang himself.

 

[Eboue]

Right, so it's not a matter of principle but rather power relations, and there are conceivable circumstances under which you guys would become supporters of Zionism and learn to overlook its uglier manifestations. Although presumably (in @Silva's case anyway) these circumstances don't include the conditions European Jews found themselves in during the first half of the 20th century.

I dont think you've understood my point. European jews pre ww2 advocating for Zionism is exactly the type of group that would get a sympathetic response from me. I wouldnt be in favor of this ultimate goals but I would recognize them as the oppressed and overlook some political differences I had for the larger purpose of supporting the oppressed against their oppressors. But once they were somewhat free from that yoke and started to claw back rights for themselves I would be less sympathetic of undemocratic and violent policies and hope the newfound security would lead to a more peaceful and pluralistic society. But when they became the oppressors themselves I would lose all sympathy for them.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

When Corbyn defended the artist that painted that Jewish conspiracy mural I don't see how he could complain when people started calling him an antisemite. If you're a public figure acting in a racist way then you are going to get panned for it even if he was just being thick.

It is overblown by the media and it is being used as a tool to undermine him but they're handling it pathetically and throwing fuel on the fire. I don't think there's any Israeli conspiracy at play here, just an inept politician determined to hang himself.

No arguments from me that Labour have made a pigs ear of it. But the fact that it’s been overblown goes beyond them just making a mess of it. I doubt most people can even think of the mural artist that Corbyn defended.

 

[Eboue]

I would not enjoy living in a country run by Islamists and I would not find any political common ground with them. But I still support Palestinian freedom from oppression.

 

[2cents]

how different is all of this to south africa under apartheid? i

Very different. On the one hand, European Jews arrived in Palestine escaping almost certain death. This was certainly the case after 1933 when most of them arrived (pre-48). Without their arrival, most would likely have perished in the camps and the creation of Israel would have been impossible. As a consequence, Mizrahi Jews would have languished under Arab nationalist dictatorships or been forced to migrate to the West. They did not arrive in a alien land specifically targeted for settlement by a colonial empire, they had millennia-long religious, cultural and emotional ties to the land, and made the move entirely on their own initiative. The fate of white Europeans - Dutch and British - who chose not to settle in South Africa was, well, uninteresting let’s say. To those who did not go, it remained an alien land.

On the other hand, the response of the ANC to white dominance was to come up with an inclusivist national liberation program in which white South Africans were assured of absolute equality in a multi-ethnic, denationalized state. The Palestinians have not come up with a comparable program. Their national identity is defined as Arab and Islamic, and so is tied to the rest of the region with strong exclusivist bonds which offer nothing to Israeli Jews beyond the prospect of at best languishing as a religious minority in a wider Arab sea - given the fate of other minorities in the region, it’s not an enticing prospect.

On this forum I have stated many times that the Palestinians should launch a movement for full equality within one-state. Campaign for Israeli citizenship, attempt to form bonds with Israeli minorities and liberals, etc. I don’t see how any reasonable person could oppose such a movement in principal, whatever doubts they might have regarding its implementation. At the same time, I doubt it will happen anytime soon, for the reason given above.

if one of those countries had the same level of western support they'd get the same level of criticism

Turkey is a member of NATO ffs. Born in genocide, a military occupying a good portion of an EU member-state, oppressing Kurds at home, bombing and ethnically cleansing them in Iraq and Syria.

I love Turkey by the way.

I would not enjoy living in a country run by Islamists and I would not find any political common ground with them. But I still support Palestinian freedom from oppression.

I don’t want to sound patronizing, but this is a really easy position to take from Montana. In the region, most regard the conflict in zero-sum terms.

 

[sullydnl]

I have no doubt that the (very real) antisemitism issue within the Labour party is being exaggerated and weaponised for political purposes. However, Labour have mishandled the issue so badly that they're now at point where trying to downplay the issue (even in the correct belief that others are exaggerating it) is counterproductive. Their criticism of the Panorama piece could be entirely valid but it will still be read by many as a paranoid attempt to avoid responsibility, a reaction that comes directly from the party's failure at controlling the narrative surrounding them.

 

[Eboue]

I don’t want to sound patronizing, but this is a really easy position to take from Montana. In the region, most regard the conflict in zero-sum terms.

So is that what you've done then? Thrown your lot in with Israel and dismissed the Palestinian suffering because its zero sum?

Even if we take your zero sum evaluation at face value, the logical next step would be to argue for a two state solution.

 

[Silva]

Very different. On the one hand, European Jews arrived in Palestine escaping almost certain death. This was certainly the case after 1933 when most of them arrived (pre-48). Without their arrival, most would likely have perished in the camps and the creation of Israel would have been impossible. As a consequence, Mizrahi Jews would have languished under Arab nationalist dictatorships or been forced to migrate to the West. They did not arrive in a alien land specifically targeted for settlement by a colonial empire, they had millennia-long religious, cultural and emotional ties to the land, and made the move entirely on their own initiative. The fate of white Europeans - Dutch and British - who chose not to settle in South Africa was, well, uninteresting let’s say. To those who did not go, it remained an alien land.

On the other hand, the response of the ANC to white dominance was to come up with an inclusivist national liberation program in which white South Africans were assured of absolute equality in a multi-ethnic, denationalized state. The Palestinians have not come up with a comparable program. Their national identity is defined as Arab and Islamic, and so is tied to the rest of the region with strong exclusivist bonds which offer nothing to Israeli Jews beyond the prospect of at best languishing as a religious minority in a wider Arab sea - given the fate of other minorities in the region, it’s not an enticing prospect.

On this forum I have stated many times that the Palestinians should launch a movement for full equality within one-state. Campaign for Israeli citizenship, attempt to form bonds with Israeli minorities and liberals, etc. I don’t see how any reasonable person could oppose such a movement in principal, whatever doubts they might have regarding its implementation. At the same time, I doubt it will happen anytime soon, for the reason given above.

More specifically, how is the situation different to before the reconciliation movement. I agree with the one state stuff as I've written here before. But I don't see how there's much of a difference the current conflict to SA in the decade or two before reconciliation. I don't think there's anything in particular that makes the same outcome impossible, but as it stands, I'd rather criticise the winners than the losers of the conflict. Militant Mandela was better than the Apartheid police

Turkey is a member of NATO ffs. Born in genocide, a military occupying a good portion of an EU member-state, oppressing Kurds at home, bombing and ethnically cleansing them in Iraq and Syria.

I should have specified, from western people in discourse, Turkey is pretty unanimously viewed with suspicious and critically, but because there's no hardline defenders of their actions, there's no protracted debates. Oppose this to American action which gets hardline defence, and the frustration of seeing people defend Americas military and government leads to western calls of death of america

 

[2cents]

So is that what you've done then? Thrown your lot in with Israel and dismissed the Palestinian suffering because its zero sum?

Even if we take your zero sum evaluation at face value, the logical next step would be to argue for a two state solution.

Sorry I’m not sure how this relates to my own positions on the conflict. I’m in Ireland, I can take a wishy-washy position just like you. Here it is: I’m fully supportive of the principal of self-determination for both peoples in however they can both be accommodated together. My preference would be for them to be able to co-exist together in a single state, but I see no prospect of that happening in the current context or any scenario I can envisage in the next few decades. I also see no prospect for a two-state solution right now given the practicalities involved and the incompatible demands of each side, and the forces at work in the wider region. I do not believe, however, that this is all solely Israel’s fault or entirely down to the power imbalance. I take Palestinian hopes and aspirations as seriously as I do Zionist hopes and aspirations. I listen to their visions for the future and I don’t believe that, at this moment, there is much if any place for accommodation there. I feel similarly about the current mood among Israeli Jews by the way.

So my own position is currently quite limited, I’d like to see moves from the ground up to encourage empathy and understanding of the rival narratives. It doesn’t mean that Palestinians must become Zionists or vice versa, but I think it’s the minimal requirement before any concrete peace deal can be achieved.

To bring the conversation back on topic, it is the total lack of empathy vis-a-vis the Zionist narrative and claims - which are inextricably tied up with the modern Jewish historical experience - from the Corbyn side of things which I find so frustrating, since it automatically alienates so many decent people with direct ties to the conflict, while attracting the worst sorts with no ties.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I had no idea about final solution but I also have to say I'm not the brightest either

Most people know it as The Holocaust. Final Solution was the Nazi operational name for it. Personally I find it hard to believe that whoever made that tweet didn’t know what they were doing. People involved in that type of politics know the history.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Most people know it as The Halocaust. Final Solution was the Nazi operational name for it. Personally I find it hard to believe that whoever made that tweet didn’t know what they were doing. People involved in that type of politics know the history.

Halocaust

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Halocaust

Fixed.

 

[Eboue]

Sorry I’m not sure how this relates to my own positions on the conflict. I’m in Ireland, I can take a wishy-washy position just like you. Here it is: I’m fully supportive of the principal of self-determination for both peoples in however they can both be accommodated together. My preference would be for them to be able to co-exist together in a single state, but I see no prospect of that happening in the current context or any scenario I can envisage in the next few decades. I also see no prospect for a two-state solution right now given the practicalities involved and the incompatible demands of each side, and the forces at work in the wider region. I do not believe, however, that this is all solely Israel’s fault or entirely down to the power imbalance. I take Palestinian hopes and aspirations as seriously as I do Zionist hopes and aspirations. I listen to their visions for the future and I don’t believe that, at this moment, there is much if any place for accommodation there. I feel similarly about the current mood among Israeli Jews by the way.

So my own position is currently quite limited, I’d like to see moves from the ground up to encourage empathy and understanding of the rival narratives. It doesn’t mean that Palestinians must become Zionists or vice versa, but I think it’s the minimal requirement before any concrete peace deal can be achieved.

To bring the conversation back on topic, it is the total lack of empathy vis-a-vis the Zionist narrative and claims - which are inextricably tied up with the modern Jewish historical experience - from the Corbyn side of things which I find so frustrating, since it automatically alienates so many decent people with direct ties to the conflict, while attracting the worst sorts with no ties.

I think you betray your sympathies with the way you frame things. You can say you listen to both sides but when you mention in this post that Palestinians have to try and understand Jewish narratives but not that Israel needs to stop illegal settlements it becomes clear which side you fall on. I'd also say I dont think you are understanding my points. As I've stated here and a few months ago when we discussed a similar issue, I view conflicts from a power standpoint and if the religions were reversed I would still view the conflict from a power standpoint. I dont think it's the responsibility of the oppressed to try and understand and appreciate the feelings of the oppressors. Several other situations have been mentioned in this thread: South Africa, Turkey, the US etc and my position is consistent throughout all of them. Once the oppression stops we can start to address the more nuanced points. Until then I don't think its appropriate to scold oppressed peoples for not living up to our perfect ideals.

 

[2cents]

More specifically, how is the situation different to before the reconciliation movement. I agree with the one state stuff as I've written here before. But I don't see how there's much of a difference the current conflict to SA in the decade or two before reconciliation. I don't think there's anything in particular that makes the same outcome impossible

I’ve explained it partly above - the ANC had an inclusivist program. Right now the Palestinians are divided between one wing which envisages an Arab state where the Jews would be, at best, relegated to minority-status, and an Islamic state where the Jews would be...same. There is nothing in either Palestinian program to appeal to Israeli Jews.

This is tied into another larger factor - the wider region is currently awash in political instability and civil war, with Islamism dominating pretty much all protest and opposition movements (although the Sudan and perhaps Tunisia look promising). By the way they define their own national identity, the Palestinians are tied to the wider region’s destiny. Because of the status of their cause, this makes them a target of states such as Iran and Turkey who are seeking to project power across the region, and in doing so encourage the least accommodating actors in Palestinian politics. At the same time, the wider uncertainty surrounding the future of the region as a whole makes significant Israeli compromises unthinkable among the Israeli public.

because there's no hardline defenders of their actions, there's no protracted debates

Conversely it could be argued that because there are no hardline critics of Turkey, there is no need for hardline defenders.

 

[2cents]

I think you betray your sympathies with the way you frame things.

I’ve explicitly acknowledged on the forum before that I’ve a pro-Israeli bias. Not trying to fool anyone here.

You can say you listen to both sides but when you mention in this post that Palestinians have to try and understand Jewish narratives but not that Israel needs to stop illegal settlements it becomes clear which side you fall on.

You’ll have to forgive me for not laying out my position on every single aspect of the conflict in the Jeremy Corbyn thread. I’ve made my opposition to settlements clear in other threads. Having said that, settlements can be accommodated in both one- and two-state scenarios, providing the mutual empathy I’ve been describing is there. So yes, I do prioritize some stuff over other stuff. And I was arguing that both sides have to try understand each other’s narratives.

I'd also say I dont think you are understanding my points. As I've stated here and a few months ago when we discussed a similar issue, I view conflicts from a power standpoint

I understand just fine, I just find this way of approaching things to be simple and limited. I don’t think it offers an adequate explanation for the factors driving the conflict or a suitable approach for solving it.

 

[Eboue]

I’ve explicitly acknowledged on the forum before that I’ve a pro-Israeli bias. Not trying to fool anyone here.



You’ll have to forgive me for not laying out my position on every single aspect of the conflict in the Jeremy Corbyn thread. I’ve made my opposition to settlements clear in other threads. Having said that, settlements can be accommodated in both one- and two-state scenarios, providing the mutual empathy I’ve been describing is there. So yes, I do prioritize some stuff over other stuff.



I understand just fine, I just find this way of approaching things to be simple and limited. I don’t think it offers an adequate explanation for the factors driving the conflict or a suitable approach for solving it.

I agree that it's a simplistic view of solving the conflict. But I think "Palestinians need to learn and empathize with Jewish history" is not going to solve it or even play a part in it either. I think you've made a good point that the government that would likely be formed by the leading Palestinian factions at this time would be very hostile to Jews and not be something that most left wing people would embrace. But I think status quo bias blinds you to how bad things are now. Anyway, this isnt really on topic and I dont think we disagree that much. I dont follow Corbyn very closely, I just wanted to point out that opposition to Israel can indeed be principled (on a power relations analysis) and I think you saying "conditional on which ethnic group" is uncharitable at best and could be interpreted as an accusation of anti semitism.

 

[2cents]

I think you saying "conditional on which ethnic group" is uncharitable at best and could be interpreted as an accusation of anti semitism.

You misunderstood. I said it could be perceived that way, by for example British Jews already suspicious of Corbyn for all sorts of reasons. It’s part of the broader explanation for the distrust in him, which he seems incapable of resolving.

For my part I do not apply the term antisemite lightly, I have actually been quite careful not to apply it to Corbyn himself.

 

[Drifter]

Thank you Panorama.



Ohhh Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Ok Jeremy, repeat after me; "anti-Semitism is abhorrent and has no place in society. We are taking every possible step to ensure that members of our party understand this, and we will take any and all appropriate action to ensure that those who spread hate are removed from the party."

"Yeah, but the Beeb are like totally way off with what is proper going on with us, innit, cause them Beeb are a bunch of lying wankers who already had an agenda in place before they did their investigation and that."

OK, Jeremy, just say exactly what is on this card and then SAY NOTHING ELSE. OK?

"Yeah but -"

feck it, the press are here. Just stick to the cards. OK?

"...ok."

... I'm sure he'll be fine...

 

[nickm]

Thank you Panorama.



Ohhh Jeremy Corbyn.

The change is within the 3.1% margin of error.

 

[Dobba]

Watson was certainly a piece of shit long before this week, but it's been nice to be reminded.

His attempt to reinvent himself as some anti-racist crusader is one for the ages.

 

[Nuts]

Thank you Panorama.



Ohhh Jeremy Corbyn.

I'd expect Labour to pull ahead now by eating into the Lib Dem vote. No wonder the Tories (both red and blue) are going so strong on their dirty tricks tactics...

 

[Cheesy]

Very charming.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

Very charming.

who even is that?

 

[Cheesy]

Anyone know the background to this one?

 

[Silva]

Anyone know the background to this one?

Clearly Jeremy Corbyn is a secret homophobe and we got him this time

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Anyone know the background to this one?

a Jewish anti-LGBT activist with Corbyn? Owen Jones's head will be spinning.

 

[Dobba]

They've said the quiet bit out loud.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[nickm]

I'd expect Labour to pull ahead now by eating into the Lib Dem vote. No wonder the Tories (both red and blue) are going so strong on their dirty tricks tactics...

 

[Smores]

How strange you managed to select the only one with Labour behind, i wonder why.

 

[sun_tzu]

I heard a farrage interview where he said if Boris commited to a no deal in a manifesto the brexit party wouldn't put forward and candidates and he would campaign for the conservatives...

Factor that into the figures and I think Johnson ends up with a blairesque majority

I could see Johnson going for that with a snap election

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I heard a farrage interview where he said if Boris commited to a no deal in a manifesto the brexit party wouldn't put forward and candidates and he would campaign for the conservatives...

Factor that into the figures and I think Johnson ends up with a blairesque majority

I could see Johnson going for that with a snap election

I know it’s been said a million times before but this obsession amongst a segment of British society with actively pursuing a no deal (which will, obviously, be followed by an urgent need to negotiate a trade deal) has to go down as the most idiotic mass hysteria the world has seen since Hitler took power in Germany. It really is that mental. What the hell, like?