Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Sweet Square]

I heard a farrage interview where he said if Boris commited to a no deal in a manifesto the brexit party wouldn't put forward and candidates and he would campaign for the conservatives..

I've always doubted that the Brexit Party would run any candidates in a general election.

Still a long way to go before it could happen.

 

[Zlatattack]

Clearly Jeremy Corbyn is a secret homophobe and we got him this time

Yeah but he's meeting with someone jewish, so to suggest that's a bad thing is anti semitic right?

 

[sun_tzu]

I've always doubted that the Brexit Party would run any candidates in a general election.

Still a long way to go before it could happen.

yes I think that provided they get the brexit policy they want (wto / hard brexit) they would be happy to step aside... and equally I think Johnson will be aware that governing effectivley beyond a few weeks / months will prove impossible without a bigger majority so logically it makes sence from both parties... perhaps MP's blocking no deal gives him the chance to paint labour as a remain party and an excuse to go to the ballot and basically run the campaign as a second referendum but with the conservatives as the only leave option whilst the remain votes are split over several parties - logically its the most sensible play but also its boris so honestly who knows what he will do.

edit assuming boris wins the leadership election which seems a foregone conclusion unless the polling has been waaaaaaaaaaaay out

 

[finneh]

I know it’s been said a million times before but this obsession amongst a segment of British society with actively pursuing a no deal (which will, obviously, be followed by an urgent need to negotiate a trade deal) has to go down as the most idiotic mass hysteria the world has seen since Hitler took power in Germany. It really is that mental. What the hell, like?

The problem is that the options have been reduced to no deal or remain. The current "deal" firstly isn't really an agreement (it's merely an agreement to have further talks); and secondly is somewhat dead in the water due to the Parliamentary arithmetic. So I don't really believe it's a case of actively pursuing, as if it were anyone's first choice.

If you're allergic to peanuts to the point that it makes you significantly and painfully uncomfortable, but you're starving and the only options you're given are peanuts or no food whatsoever... It would be disingenuous to say that you're actively seeking a meal of peanuts.

I'm certain only a tiny minority of total nutters would consider no deal their first choice.

 

[sun_tzu]

I'm certain only a tiny minority of total nutters would consider no deal their first choice.

I think its a minority - but a signifigant one - perhaps around 1/4

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The problem is that the options have been reduced to no deal or remain. The current "deal" firstly isn't really an agreement (it's merely an agreement to have further talks); and secondly is somewhat dead in the water due to the Parliamentary arithmetic. So I don't really believe it's a case of actively pursuing, as if it were anyone's first choice.

If you're allergic to peanuts to the point that it makes you significantly and painfully uncomfortable, but you're starving and the only options you're given are peanuts or no food whatsoever... It would be disingenuous to say that you're actively seeking a meal of peanuts.

I'm certain only a tiny minority of total nutters would consider no deal their first choice.

I get that. I also think there’s a sort of madness in the air where a sizeable chunk of the British populace have convinced themselves that a no deal represents the only way that Britain can achieve true independence. As though it can then thrive in complete isolation from all its neighbours. Pull up the drawbridge and screw everyone else. Utter lunacy but weirdly contagious.

 

[finneh]

I think its a minority - but a signifigant one - perhaps around 1/4

I think this would depend on the question. I agree if it were asked as an open ended question you'd see a large minority saying no deal as the preferred option.

However I think if the question were a multiple choice including a free trade agreement, the number would reduce by a large portion. If the question further clarified that the free trade agreement also had us leaving on 31st October then I think the no deal crowd would reduce drastically again. If the question stated the free trade agreement would involve paying nothing to the EU (not a viable option of course) you'd reduce the no dealers to practically zero.

I get that. I also think there’s a sort of madness in the air where a sizeable chunk of the British populace have convinced themselves that a no deal represents the only way that Britain can achieve true independence. As though it can then thrive in complete isolation from all its neighbours. Pull up the drawbridge and screw everyone else. Utter lunacy but weirdly contagious.

I agree that a large proportion of people feel no deal is the only means in which Britain can be truly independent. But that's simply because they only see two options - no independence or no deal. Any other theoretical option they believe to not involve independence. Unfortunately the two year time period was always going to cause problems. In two years there was never going to be time to negotiate a full withdrawal agreement... It took us two years simply to agree to further discussions.

However I disagree that complete isolation is what most people are seeking. I'd assert that most people would want less tariffs across the world and greater trade between the UK and other countries, not the opposite.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[Adisa]

I have had some sympathy with him iver this anti-semitism issue but this man has to fire those close to him.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[sun_tzu]

Labour frontbench MP quitting over "intolerance"
https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.a...ur-corbyn-election-antisemitism-a9013286.html

 

[Mozza]

She's quitting because FBPE types kept sending her abuse

 

[sun_tzu]

She's quitting because FBPE types kept sending her abuse

Funny that is only part of what she actually said... So probably true to say a mix of abuse
She voted remain in one of the most pro leave parts of the country but she specifically chose to reference the red Tory type abuse as well

.
“The lack of tolerance for different viewpoints in the Labour Party frankly worries me. We have to have respect for each other, even if we disagree, because we are all party of this Party.”

The former GMTV presenter said: "This party is about a set of values not any individual and we would all do well to remember that.

“And while I’m at it, and it doesn’t happen in Ashfield, but when I hear people being called right wing in the Labour Party I find it utterly offensive. We are all left-wingers in this Party – that is why we joined the Labour Party.”

 

[ZupZup]

Funny that is only part of what she actually said... So probably true to say a mix of abuse
She voted remain in one of the most pro leave parts of the country but she specifically chose to reference the red Tory type abuse as well

She has specifically tweeted to say she isn’t leaving because of intolerance.

She is quitting because she doesn’t feel like she has the energy and commitment to carry on for another 8 years and she feels that is what her constituents deserve.

 

[Sweet Square]

Funny that is only part of what she actually said... So probably true to say a mix of abuse
She voted remain in one of the most pro leave parts of the country but she specifically chose to reference the red Tory type abuse as well

https://www.gloria-de-piero.co.uk/news/2019/07/19/glorias-speech-to-ashfield-labour-members/

People in this local Party have respected my position over respecting the referendum result – in fact Ashfield delegates voted against a second referendum at last year’s conference. It’s a democracy we live in after all, but the abuse I’ve had on social media from some who want to overturn the referendum has been pretty grim – so to all those who have said that I only hold the position I do because I want to hold my seat, I’m afraid it’s much worse than that – I actually believe it and I’ll keep fighting for a Brexit with the closest possible trading ties with the EU.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[sun_tzu]

She has specifically tweeted to say she isn’t leaving because of intolerance.

She is quitting because she doesn’t feel like she has the energy and commitment to carry on for another 8 years and she feels that is what her constituents deserve.

https://www.gloria-de-piero.co.uk/news/2019/07/19/glorias-speech-to-ashfield-labour-members/

Yeah... She's actually my MP... Though no longer a member of the party I was at her house after her speech for drinks... Me and the wife are going out for dinner with her in a couple of weeks and trust me I think I know well enough that that is not the only factor in her thinking... The threats of deselection the bairite and red Tory stuff has been pretty vile as well
I left that local party after people without the slightest clue about economica and business thought all Policies could be reduced to ooooh Jeremy Corbyn.... She should have left years ago... I'm glad she finally has and I hope she will be pursuaded to stand Adam independent

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah... She's actually my MP... Though no longer a member of the party I was at her house after her speech for drinks... Me and the wife are going out for dinner with her in a couple of weeks and trust me I think I know well enough that that is not the only factor in her thinking... The threats of deselection the bairite and red Tory stuff has been pretty vile as well

Ah fair enough. (Although threats of deselection aren't actually a bad thing).

In all my years in this Party my choice of leader has never been elected, I voted for Margaret Beckett, David Miliband, Liz Kendall and Owen Smith but I have worked for every Labour leader as hard as the last.

This party is about a set of values not any individual and we would all do well to remember that. And while I’m at it, and it doesn’t happen in Ashfield, but when I hear people being called right wing in the Labour Party I find it utterly offensive . We are all left wingers in this Party – that is why we joined the Labour Party.

Why does she find it utterly offensive ? Just going on by who she wanted as Labour leader she clearly is on the right, no ? I only ask this because there seems to be people out there who put forward centre/right ideas but get very annoyed and shocked when called out to be blairites/right wingers.

Considering the example you gave of basically telling a bunch of left wing/socialist that they don't understand economics and business and then storming off. Would you find the term Blairite a offensive or inaccurate term to describe your politics ?

 

[ZupZup]

I left that local party after people without the slightest clue about economica and business thought all Policies could be reduced to ooooh Jeremy Corbyn.... She should have left years ago... I'm glad she finally has and I hope she will be pursuaded to stand Adam independent

I really don’t know enough about Gloria’s politics to have a clue whether threats of deselection are fair. I am a firm believer in the democratisation of candidate selection though and there are certainly a number of MP’s I would deselect in a heartbeat. Wes Streeting would probably be top of the list.

It’s funny you should mention policies. The political centre (and the right to be fair) has been an absolute policy void in recent memory. I struggle to think of a single bright idea... other than ‘stop Brexit’, what do they actually want for the future of this country? The status quo clearly isn’t working for millions of people which is partly why we are in the Brexit mess we are.

 

[sun_tzu]

I really don’t know enough about Gloria’s politics to have a clue whether threats of deselection are fair. I am a firm believer in the democratisation of candidate selection though and there are certainly a number of MP’s I would deselect in a heartbeat. Wes Streeting would probably be top of the list.

It’s funny you should mention policies. The political centre (and the right to be fair) has been an absolute policy void in recent memory. I struggle to think of a single bright idea... other than ‘stop Brexit’, what do they actually want for the future of this country? The status quo clearly isn’t working for millions of people which is partly why we are in the Brexit mess we are.

I think electoral reform should be a pretty major strand of all centrist parties but aside from the lib Dems it's certainly lacking

I do wonder if brexit finally being done will allow the interest in a new generation of politics to be harnessed but I'm too cynical to see anything beyond all the tribalism and whataboutism simply dragging over to trade talks and the next decade or so being dominated by brexit

 

[sun_tzu]

Ah fair enough. (Although threats of deselection aren't actually a bad thing).



Why does she find it utterly offensive ? Just going on by who she wanted as Labour leader she clearly is on the right, no ? I only ask this because there seems to be people out there who put forward centre/right ideas but get very annoyed and shocked when called out to be blairites/right wingers.

Considering the example you gave of basically telling a bunch of left wing/socialist that they don't understand economics and business and then storming off. Would you find the term Blairite a offensive or inaccurate term to describe your politics ?

Corbynistas calling centrists right wing is as logical as ukippers saying Tories are left wing... Meh echo chambers etc
As for the idiot I reference... He said momentum will stop big international companies making profit by increasing corporation tax... He didn't quite seem to understand that corporation tax is only due on profit... But I was told not to worry they would just make the tax 100%... Frankly at that point I thought I'm pulling my contributions because idiots like this are doing to break the party

 

[Sweet Square]

Corbynistas calling centrists right wing is as logical as ukippers saying Tories are left wing... Meh echo chambers etc

Er....what ?

I don't think its about echo chambers more about what people actually mean when they call themselves left wing. Not to go down a massive rabbit hole but what you do consider to be the political left ? Is it like Gloria and being in the Labour Party ?

I'm just trying to find out how someone who wanted the likes of David Milband and Liz Kendall (Kendall literally ran as a blairite in 2015)as labour leaders can be shocked at being called centrist/centre right ? (Her actual voting record from I've seen is more centre left, so its odd that she backs right wingers to be party leaders).

I thought I'm pulling my contributions because idiots like this are doing to break the party

At best I give no more than a £10 a month, there are far better ways to waste my money.

 

[nickm]

How strange you managed to select the only one with Labour behind, i wonder why.

I selected a new poll which happened to show labour behind... to show that the poster who posted a new poll as evidence labour was about pull ahead now, was wrong.

But since you wanted more polling data, what does the Britain elects poll aggregator show? It shows labour a mere 2 points ahead of the Tories ie a lead within the margin of error. That’s anything but an endorsement of corbyns “leadership” especially at this point in the cycle, under these circumstances.

 

[Ady87]

I think you may be overstating ‘the cycle’ at present day given absolutely nothing about British politics has been BAU in several years. I don’t really envisage a scenario where we re-run the last 3 years with a different Labour Party and the same Brexit issue and Labour are miles ahead of where they are now.

If there is a solid Labour leader knocking about they’ve not yet made themselves known anyway.

 

[Kentonio]

I think you may be overstating ‘the cycle’ at present day given absolutely nothing about British politics has been BAU in several years. I don’t really envisage a scenario where we re-run the last 3 years with a different Labour Party and the same Brexit issue and Labour are miles ahead of where they are now.

If there is a solid Labour leader knocking about they’ve not yet made themselves known anyway.

Even if they’d followed almost exactly the same Brexit policy with a different leader, they’d likely be well ahead. Whether or not you think it’s fair or not, Corbyn is extremely unpopular in ways that previous leaders haven’t been (since about Kinnock anyway).

 

[ZupZup]

Even if they’d followed almost exactly the same Brexit policy with a different leader, they’d likely be well ahead. Whether or not you think it’s fair or not, Corbyn is extremely unpopular in ways that previous leaders haven’t been (since about Kinnock anyway).

The issue is that any left wing replacement for Corbyn would get vilified in exactly the same way he has been. How long before we'd be talking about their popularity and whether it was time for another change? If McDonnell was the leader of the party for instance, how long before the media start bashing him every single day?

Even a young popular MP like Laura Pidcock has started to get the treatment this week. Various MP's on the right of the party starting to criticise her and the media would do exactly the same. Essentially it's a battle for the future of the party and where it will stand politically. Letting the media bully them into New Labour style centrism can't be allowed happen.

 

[That'sHernandez]

The issue is that any left wing replacement for Corbyn would get vilified in exactly the same way he has been. How long before we'd be talking about their popularity and whether it was time for another change? If McDonnell was the leader of the party for instance, how long before the media start bashing him every single day?

Even a young popular MP like Laura Pidcock has started to get the treatment this week. Various MP's on the right of the party starting to criticise her and the media would do exactly the same. Essentially it's a battle for the future of the party and where it will stand politically. Letting the media bully them into New Labour style centrism can't be allowed happen.

The same McDonnell who thought it was a good idea to chuck Mao Zedong's Little Red Book at George Osbourne and tell him to read it? Presumably the media would be rightly bashing him with immediate effect. The man's worse than Corbyn.



You have to get up pretty late in the day for George fecking Osbourne to have the wits to zing you in the HoC.

 

[Sweet Square]

The same McDonnell who thought it was a good idea to chuck Mao Zedong's Little Red Book at George Osbourne and tell him to read it? Presumably the media would be rightly bashing him with immediate effect. The man's worse than Corbyn.



You have to get up pretty late in the day for George fecking Osbourne to have the wits to zing you in the HoC.

Wasn't that a reference to the tory government close relationship to CCP ?

No one should make jokes in the Hoc as they never work and satire with animals isn't really satire anyway. But the Mcdonnell joke was actual pretty decent, all things considering.

 

[ZupZup]

The same McDonnell who thought it was a good idea to chuck Mao Zedong's Little Red Book at George Osbourne and tell him to read it? Presumably the media would be rightly bashing him with immediate effect. The man's worse than Corbyn.

Well substitute McDonnell for any left wing Labour MP... it doesn't matter. Anybody standing on a similar policy platform to Corbyn will get vilified. Same thing happening to the left wing Democrats in the US right now.

People who think just changing Corbyn is any sort of solution to that are deluding themselves.

 

[Buster15]

The same McDonnell who thought it was a good idea to chuck Mao Zedong's Little Red Book at George Osbourne and tell him to read it? Presumably the media would be rightly bashing him with immediate effect. The man's worse than Corbyn.



You have to get up pretty late in the day for George fecking Osbourne to have the wits to zing you in the HoC.

Done ok for himself since leaving politics.
What I found most dis-tastefull about him was the sheer pleasure he took from his austerity policy. He seemed to orgasm at the cuts he was making.
Yet another failed policy from the nasty party. Balancing the books has been well and truly kicked into touch and I note that in June of this year, we had to borrow a record amount, partly due to interest payments on our increasing borrowing.
Oh well. At least we are all in it together....

 

[Smores]

Even if they’d followed almost exactly the same Brexit policy with a different leader, they’d likely be well ahead. Whether or not you think it’s fair or not, Corbyn is extremely unpopular in ways that previous leaders haven’t been (since about Kinnock anyway).

Any actual substance to back that claim up because it reads as utter nonsense? He might poll as unpopular but it really doesn't seem to have impacted voting considering the last election and that the drop off has only come with the delayed brexit.

 

[Cheesy]

Any actual substance to back that claim up because it reads as utter nonsense? He might poll as unpopular but it really doesn't seem to have impacted voting considering the last election and that the drop off has only come with the delayed brexit.

That's..the substance. His poll figures for an opposition leader have been historically unpopular.

The last election (and its immediate aftermath) were just about the only times where he wasn't polling extremely negatively, thereby largely backing up that assertion. And even then he wasn't exactly popular, which is important to remember since he still didn't actually win in 2017. Indeed, his comeback to muster a respectable defeat was largely impressive because he had been so unpopular beforehand. Now he's slid back to those figures, sometimes coming out even worse.

 

[finneh]

That's..the substance. His poll figures for an opposition leader have been historically unpopular.

The last election (and its immediate aftermath) were just about the only times where he wasn't polling extremely negatively, thereby largely backing up that assertion. And even then he wasn't exactly popular, which is important to remember since he still didn't actually win in 2017. Indeed, his comeback to muster a respectable defeat was largely impressive because he had been so unpopular beforehand. Now he's slid back to those figures, sometimes coming out even worse.

His "comeback" was also against a backdrop of one of the worst election campaigns in modern memory.

 

[Honest John]

His "comeback" was also against a backdrop of one of the worst election campaigns in modern memory.

And he lost

 

[finneh]

And he lost

Absolutely. I bet there were strangely mixed feelings within the more sensible parts of the left leaning electorate. On the positive side the Tories reduced their numbers of seats and Labour made gains. On the negative side that gave the incompetent Corbyn ammunition to stay in his post for a few more years.

 

[Walrus]

A few years ago when Corbyn came onto the scene I quite liked him. A breath of fresh air from the usual politicians etc... I think he had more than a few of them quite rattled. Unfortunately the last two years he has made a complete cock up of things, at a time where having a competent opposition was more vital than it has been in decades.

 

[Smores]

That's..the substance. His poll figures for an opposition leader have been historically unpopular.

The last election (and its immediate aftermath) were just about the only times where he wasn't polling extremely negatively, thereby largely backing up that assertion. And even then he wasn't exactly popular, which is important to remember since he still didn't actually win in 2017. Indeed, his comeback to muster a respectable defeat was largely impressive because he had been so unpopular beforehand. Now he's slid back to those figures, sometimes coming out even worse.

It isn't the substance, the substance is votes for the Labour party not some popularity poll.

Analysis after analysis has shown current polling is about Brexit and not much more. The idea that Labour would be massively ahead with the same policy and a different leader is short sighted. Both major parties have lost votes to single issue parties and it's not because of the likability of May/Corbyn.

 

[Kentonio]

It isn't the substance, the substance is votes for the Labour party not some popularity poll.

Analysis after analysis has shown current polling is about Brexit and not much more. The idea that Labour would be massively ahead with the same policy and a different leader is short sighted. Both major parties have lost votes to single issue parties and it's not because of the likability of May/Corbyn.

He’s failed completely to win over the electorate to his policy. A charismatic leader might (and yes it’s a big might) have been able to have done that without making both leavers and remainers feel betrayed by his prevarication. He didn’t seem to even bother to be selling a vision to either side, he just put his head down, endlessly waffled on about another general election, and left no-one any clearer about what he actually believes in or wants to happen.

Now we just come to our own conclusions, which for many of us on the Remain side (which also makes up the bulk of his membership let’s not forget) is that he’s a leave supporter who doesn’t give a damn about preventing a chaotic Brexit as long as we end up out.

 

[Sweet Square]

Now we just come to our own conclusions, which for many of us on the Remain side (which also makes up the bulk of his membership let’s not forget) is that he’s a leave supporter who doesn’t give a damn about preventing a chaotic Brexit as long as we end up out.

Oh christ! Not another one who believe this shite.

 

[Kentonio]

Oh christ! Not another one who believe this shite.

He’s fought tooth and nail every step of the way to avoid fully backing a second referendum, even when polling showed his own party fully behind it. So if you think he’s a stalwart remainer then sorry but I have a unicorn to sell you.