Your a tory of course you wouldn't vote for Corbyn.
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Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I don't know Milliband at all as I didn't know Corbyn pre 2015/16 - it's meaningless, the last Labour leader I knew was your mate Blair.
I don't understand what your point actually is. You don't want a referendum. You don't believe that revoking a50 is realistic. You don't want Brexit. It seems that all you want is an excuse to rant.
I have voted Tory, I've also voted for Harold Wilson.
Reading may help. I live in France - I don't want anything - and I never rant and I don't get upset because my pet politician is criticised.
Yeah I know that you live in France because it says it right underneath your name but you still haven't said what your actual point is.
This is starting to get surreal.
Says the guy who seems to be against a 2nd referendum, revoking article 50 and brexit all at the same time.
I didn't say I was against revoking A50, I'm saying it's not going to happen. The UK are insane to go through with any sort of Brexit. If I was against the first referendum how can I be for a 2nd referendum (which I don't think would change anything). Brexit will be a disaster for the UK.
We are where we are so what do you think should be done?
It's too late. The Tories and Brexiters have had an easy ride despite their internal squabbles. The opposition, the media have not done anything anywhere near forcefully enough to counter Brexit before and since the referendum. Over three years have gone by and the UK have ended up with a RW government who are going to crash you out and with barely a whimper from the opposition or media.
The only thing that seems to be stopping it is the hard brexiters themselves who are crapping themselves at the consequences of taking the final step hence Johnson now still hoping the EU will back down on the backstop which they won't.
Or your own apparently.
This is starting to get surreal.
Why would I know Milliband - I had no interest in Uk politics at all at the time, I didn't and don't live there. Only because of the insanity of Brexit has it become a topic of interest now.
I have voted for Harold Wilson therefore I must be a Labour Voter.
Your points make no sense.
You've spent the last couple of years calling everyone who voted for Brexit stupid, while at the same time admitting that had you lived in the UK you would have voted for not only the party who put forward such a simplistic referendum but for the party who's time in government made it easier for Leave to win(https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018...brexit-and-now-they-are-changing-their-minds/). Your excuse being well you didn't know anything about the alternatives(By the way that post of yours was from 2017. Two years after the 2015 election and one after the referendum result, fair play for shitting your brain so far after the event).
This conversation we are having is very similar to the time where people on the forum had to explain you that the housing crisis in Britain wasn't due to people buying iPhones. I mean christ you said one of the reasons you voted Labour was because you started driving and Heath wanted to reduce the speed limit!. So the idea of politics having wider repercussions and effects to people other than yourself is a concept that seems impossible for you to understand.(Don't worry your not alone as plenty of other tories have the same issue).
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If you are referring to Trump.That is a completely different scenario.
I know it was from 2017 , an answer to a hypothetical question for which I had given no thought to or needed to give any thought to. All I knew about Cameron was that he was PM of the UK, that's about it, wasn't one bit interested, wasn't even aware of the referendum promise till afterwards. I didn't vote in the referendum either but it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.
So who cares why I voted for whom and for what reason - people pretending they're voting for the good of society is bollox. I've only ever voted what will benefit me or my family whether it's Labour Tory or the Monster Raving Loony Party - I have no political favourites.
I call people stupid for voting Brexit - not for the fact that I disagree with it but because they are voting for something that is going to make their own lives a whole lot worse - that is stupid - only people like JRM are going to benefit from it.
You have an obsession with public school and class - the only reason I went was not because my parents were rich but because I won a place otherwise I would have been at the local Grammar School or Comprehensive.
Since my parents were born Cockneys I wouldn't call myself upper class. A friend of mine who joined the school at the same time and we have remained friends ever since lived in a wooden hut with his divorced OAP father who couldn't afford the uniform, suppose he was an upper class twit as well.
I am sick of the whingeing young people , instead of moaning and being jealous do something about it. You all think you're the first to suffer hardship but your uncle Jeremy isn't going to solve it for you.
Yet over a year later you still said you would have voted for that tory manifesto. Also I never said you can't have a opinion just that your opinion was stupid.
Er sounds like you care Paul ? But if not cheers for proving my point.
(Also I wasn't talking about the good of society simply the effects that voting for certain polices have.)
Thats not how class works.
But Paul I sold my iPhone but I still can't buy a house. Seriously we might as well be talking a different language at this point.
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I don't think bollocks is technically a language tbf.
Sorry for the late reply.
Did not know he wanted to nationalize British Steel.
Water, Energy and the railways I have heard about. These serve the public directly and should not be For Profit. So they should be nationalized.
If you elect a government you would expect them to represent the interests of the people. Should it not negotiate with the EU?
Or perhaps the EU dictates to us. Or so we are told.
Golden Rule.
You never blame people for how they vote.
The government's obligation is to represent the interests of the majority without harming the minority.
The Tories harm everyone except the very few at the top.
Oh. they also scapegoat. Always a good strategy to distract especially when they are not doing what they are supposed to do.
Ahhh. How do you pay for it??
Welfare, NHS etc. you pay for it with progressive taxation. You certainly do not let people fall through the cracks.
You missed out the word probably - had I actually looked into it, read the manifestos, knew the personalities involved etc etc maybe I wouldn't, who knows, it didn't happen.
Just think I voted against Blair and he was involved in an illegal war. Your favourite leader of party supposedly knows the actions of a policy will be severely detrimental to the country and especially the poor people of the country but he continues to go along with ensuring that those people will be much worse off than they are now. Instead of standing up and saying that Brexit should be stopped at all costs he'd rather say nothing because he's frightened of losing votes, which of course is much more important to him.
The IPhone was a tiny example, as you well know but continue to be obtuse if you so wish.
So what is class for you, bosses versus workers, power to the people, share everyone's wealth to everybody whether they deserve it or not. Everyone can be equal , except for a few who are more equal-that doesn't make everyone's life better and push them upwards to a better life , it drags everyone downwards, except of course for the select few more equal ones.
"weather they deserve it or not"
Brilliant. Those at the top are the only ones who are riding the gravy train and they certainly do not deserve it.
Brilliant. Those at the top are the only ones who are riding the gravy train and they certainly do not deserve it.
In the EU the State can own industries, for example in France the railways(SNCF) are owned 100% by the State. The State cannot stop a company like British Steel going bust by nationalising it. It's a question of unfair advantage which probably other people on this forum know more about.
Yes the government should negotiate within the EU but the EU is depicted in the UK as some abstract faceless monstrosity whereas it is a group of countries deciding between them and the UK had one of the top 3 most influential places at the table.
Having not followed UK politics other than Brexit over the last 10/15 years difficult to comment but the EU have always been a scapegoat for whichever governments failings for the past 40 years.
Progressive taxation I agree but the taxes in the UK are low but not many people seem keen to pay more at any level and lowering taxes is always a vote winner.
Whether - those at the top should be made to pay the taxes they should pay - who's to decide if they deserve it or not.
Er I don't get the Blair stuff your doing but anyway we can go over this a million times but 1)Corbyn can't actually stop brexit by himself(There is no stop brexit button)2) if your just simply going to ignore what Corbyn is saying then this is just pointless.
I view class in a more marxist way but there are many other ways as well but what your parents were/did isn't one of them.
As for the everyone can be equal thing(Although I'm not sure how everyone can equal, except for a few who are more equal. What does more equal even mean ?)- "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - Karl Marx.
The Blair thing is a reference to anyone who has ever voted Tory is supposedly evil ergo anyone who has voted Labour is evil too. But then one could be sensible. Pigeon holing.
Corbyn cannot stop Brexit although he could have stopped no deal which is now even more certain than ever. He could have been more active in opposing Brexit if that's what he really wants, he could have been more persuasive towards his voters and others who may switch over to Labour that he is fully behind stopping Brexit if there is possibly a way.
For example if there was a GE before the UK leaves the EU a) will the Labour manifesto again be we respect the will of the people and it doesn't matter if the poor people are worse off or b) we recommend that Brexit is cancelled forthwith so that the country doesn't become poorer and we can initiate reforms to the UK system that the Tories have damaged and you will all be better off.
Or will he say we will look at the situation at the time.
When people ask what Labour's position is the usual answer is why don't you listen to Corbyn, sorry can't hear him. Just spell out Labour's position in a very concise clear way, no?
I was hoping no-one wanted to follow the soviet success story where people were supposedly equal but weren't.
I'm not saying everyone can be equal, no-one is equal, people should be free to do and act as they wish as long as they don't break the law.
As you won't spit out what you mean by class - from your quote presumably you mean that if someone is talented he can progress through life and make loads of money and no-one will mind.
What does not compute is why someone should envy someone else. I don't mean people who have physical or mental problems who should without question be cared for by the state.
In the politest way possible Paul I have no fecking idea what your on about. I've lucky never had the dreaded political conversations with conservative family members that so people many have to go through but right now I feel like I am.
Evil for voting tory ? The Soviet Union ? Envious of other people ?
All of this reads like a right wing bingo card or Facebook memes.
Like I've said before we might as well be talking a different language.
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In the politest way possible Paul I have no fecking idea what your on about. I've lucky never had the dreaded political conversations with conservative family members that so people many have to go through but right now I feel like I am.
Evil for voting tory ? The Soviet Union ? Envious of other people ?
All of this reads like a right wing bingo card or Facebook memes.
Like I've said before we might as well be talking a different language.
It's all so predictable , never answer a question with a straight answer. You're still doing it , right-wing, conservative.... you can't help yourself and because you can't answer a straight question you try to mock people. Where does facebook and bingo come into it. Sad really. Young man shouts at clouds.
I've literally gave you the answer
- Class
After I gave you this answer you went onto talk about the soviet union and people being envious of others.
What is the marxist way, please enlighten?
Edit as I said bosses and workers? Let's all be workers
Must admit I'm going off a dusty old memory but basically 2 classes
Bourgeois and workers?
I think the petit bourgeois was added by Engles but it's a dusty old memory
Read this lot and get back to me
But seriously
I would also add in The Class Struggles of France, 1848 to 1850 & The Eighteenth Brumaire by Marx(Its him doing a class analysis and its actually somewhat useful for todays politics) -
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/index.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/18th-Brumaire.pdf
No as you'll see in the stuff above. As for lets all be workers,
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Read this lot and get back to me
But seriously
I would also add in The Class Struggles of France, 1848 to 1850 & The Eighteenth Brumaire by Marx(Its him doing a class analysis and its actually somewhat useful for todays politics) -
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/index.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/18th-Brumaire.pdf
Thanks for that which was basically as I thought.
Noting especially: In a future Communist Society private property in the means of production will be non-existent and will be used in common by the producing class, marking the dissolution of all classes. This is not, of course, to say that there would be no differences or conflicts or that there would be no division of labour – on the contrary. But the means and products of labour would not be private property, and consequently, the conflicts between different people and groups of people would not be antagonistic.
Which was why I was referring to soviet and some people being more equal than others. The 20th century has seen the abject failure of the fascist regime in Germany and the abject failure of the soviet/communist regime , the USSR. The happiness of the proletariat under the non-capitalist communist society was untold. By that's another massive topic.
The assumption that all business owners and management are exploitative I find personally insulting. Of course it is true in certain cases as is true that certain unions exploit the companies.
What I find slightly ironic is that there is an idea circulating that a percentage of a company's shares be given to the workers which surely then turns them into the bourgeoisie.
Of course under a capitalist system anyone could rise from nothing to achieve what they want to achieve if they had the ability and ambition.
How depressing is marxism? Any happy or successful or functional countries you can name throughout history that adopted marxism?
Oh dear.
Anyway cheers for wasting my time.
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Don't see what's funny about that and again you haven't answered questions.
Oh dear.
Anyway cheers for wasting my time.
As I said it's all so predictable, just cannot answer anything.
I know its slightly troubling.
I've answered your questions over and over again and you keep coming back with Facebook meme arguments. We are at the point now were I would have politely told one of my cousins to warm up the car and to bring you back home and we wouldn't see each other until following christmas.
Starvation.
You've answered almost nothing , just a few snide remarks.
I'm still waiting for :
Corbyn's concise Brexit position.
A successful/prosperous/happy/functional nation that has adopted marxism at any time in history. You have a whole selection of time and the whole world to select from.
Why someone can't make a success of their lives without having a silver spoon , so to speak.
Doesn't wanting shares distributed to workers make them capitalists and bourgeois?
Other questions
Do you want to be a serf
Why do you follow an ideology from the 19th century which has zero success rate
Do you aspire to be a homeowner or look forward to sharing a four room flat with three other families , private property being a no-no.
Do you want a society where there is absolutely no incentive to improve yourself because if you do you turn into a bourgeois and we musn't have that.
Why do you keep mentioning Facebook? It's the pits.
This is like Brexit - hoping for a utopia which is complete fantasy and unworkable.
The very idea of Progressive taxation is that the those at the top pay at a higher rate.
you know, the odd thing is.....Corbyn has never said that he wanted Britain to be Marxist so this entire back and forth has been completely bloody pointless.