I have. You wanna look up what the liberal democrats stand for?
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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I have. You wanna look up what the liberal democrats stand for?
Yeah, right. That's why 9 times out of 10 their chosen successor is Yvette Cooper. Her inability to even get her own constituency to vote remain (and it wasn't even close), her calling for Article 50 to be triggered and comparing anybody thinking of voting against it to Donald Trump followed by calling for a 'progressive argument' for the end to FoM don't seem to be stumbling blocks do they? Almost as if they couldn't actually give a feck about them at all.
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No I’m not. I’m someone who doesn’t know whether France will continue to allow a non-EU citizen to continue to live and work here without onerous restrictions or conditions, much of which will likely depend on what restrictions the UK places on EU citizens. Perhaps this all seems like nothing to you. But not knowing and not having any real assurance is a huge stress and has been for years now.
Wait they stand for something ?
Moreso than current labour, for sure.
What really gets to me....and it really does is that remainers still don't get it. I suspect they never will. Its the same the other side of the pond with the liberals failure to understand the dynamics. It's not that folks who voted for Brexit or for Trump are 'thick' or 'stupid' it is simply that for too many years they have been totally ignored. In our own case it cannot be blamed (although it is) on the EU. It is down to all governments both Conservative and Labour who have treated the old industrial heartlands with utter contempt and distain. In our own case London is the only area of the country that matters. Its where all of the growth is generated. Whether Major or Blair or Cameron or Brown lets suck up to London and the city and feck the rest of the nation.
In that respect Boris is right. Get the rail network between Manchester and Leeds operational first.....buggar the London to Birmingham. If we are going to have Airport expansion....sod London lets have it in the North of England. Bloody inconvenience for those living South of the Thames but stuff the Metropolitan area they have had it too good for too long. Just look at house prices. At best on emergency life support North of Watford but a pure money spinner in the South and South West. What is really strange is that Labours heartland is now in London rather than the North West and North East. God help the Labour Party if Scotland and Wales ever do gain independence for when they do the Labour party will never again become electable.....they have sold their heartlands down the river.
Sadly although my time is almost done...my father a lifelong Paget supporter will be turning in his grave to see how the Labour party has deserted its grassroots. All IMHO which as per usual is perhaps totally wide of the mark.
Well they don't call you mad mike for nothing.
Very smart, you're the first person to have made that joke.
Huh? You don’t know who my friends want to replace Corbyn. I don’t know either. I do know they all agree he’ll go down in history as making a horse’s arse of the biggest issue a Labour leader has had to face in modern history. And they’re furious about his incompetence. As are many many people. With a wide degree of opinions on who can or should replace him.
Err their policy is 2nd ref which I just checked on their website. The functional difference being that they are too arrogant to try and negotiate plan b.
Labour have stated their policy as a 2nd ref in all circumstances.
I stand by my 9 times out of 10. The other 1 is the Miliband brother who covered up torture flights.
The libdem's manifesto on brexit is called "Fight for an exit from Brexit"
https://www.libdems.org.uk/brexit
..meanwhile Labour's manifesto mentions nothing of second referendum.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
Speaking of arrogance though, I do like that you think Labour are being the humble ones here. When in their very manifesto page they are suggesting they could negotiate a Brexit that guarantees access to Single Market while also ending freedom of movement and allowing the UK to have their own trade deals. How you like them unicorns?
That’s funny, because many of us remainers were talking about exactly that 3 years ago and then repeatedly since, especially in the run-up to and the wake of Trumps election.
It is not. This is a myth. Many strong majority Brexit areas are in the home counties. They have never been 'industrial' or 'left behind'. And many of the Northern former industrial heartlands were pro Remain.
Shame that thousands upon thousands of your fellow remainers decided to spend weekends cheering on the MPs (Soubry, Cable, Jo Johnson, Grieve) who were happily fecking people over for a good decade before the referendum.
Sums up the absolute shit show that is Labour right now when the best defence in response to accusations of gross incompetence by Corbyn is to talk about how bad other potential party leaders might be in his place.
Oh sorry, I thought you wanted the 'grossly incompetent leader' to be replaced by someone. My bad.
I was explaining why he’s so unpopular. Because he made a bollix of a such an important issue. Three years ago. Replacing him now won’t change that. Although it might give Labour a better chance of winning the next GE.
Worry not, we’ll go back to calling them cnuts after they finish playing their part in stopping Brexit.
In power for 5 more years, creating a few more hundred thousand radicalised voters, nothing could go wrong there eh
If they are genuinely helping to stop Brexit, there’s a very good chance that is going to include toppling this Tory government.
Their new party leader's record suggests they may not need a catalyst.
That's the 2017 manifesto, you know as well as I do that Labour now supports a 2nd referendum.
Whether or not the lib Dems frame their policy as fighting to exit Brexit or not, functionally they will have a 2nd ref where either no deal or Tory Brexit will be the alternative to remain.
I can accept politicians making lofty promises if there is a plan b to turn to but promising a 2nd ref without trying to negotiate a deal first is negligent arrogance in my opinion. Not trying to have a decent plan for both outcomes of a referendum is why we're in this mess in the first place.
Well, you are the one who brought up what the website says, you wanted to be a pedant and now you’re backing away from it.
And no. Functionally the Lib Dems would have no referendum if they gained power via a majority. Their whole manifesto is to exit Brexit ffs. Why would they have a referendum if they gained power on a remain manifesto? They’d have the mandate for revocation. Their stance on the referendum is that if a government (Tory or Labour) brings a Brexit deal they should put that deal in front of the people first, against the option of revoking/remaining. It’s right there in the manifesto if you bothered to read.
That’s a world apart from Labour who said they would negotiate their own Brexit deal and put it front of the people while reserving the right to campaign for the deal (i.e. Brexit). Why would I, a remainer, vote for a party that would push for their own version of Brexit?
The bottom line is this: It’s clearly transparent to all people that both Corbyn in person and Labour as a party are not for remain. They are simply pushing for a softer/different Brexit. Which is palatable to people who are Labour first and Remainers second, but not to people who are Remainers first and foremost above any party affiliation. Those people are switching to Lib Dems. And all you’re doing is engaging in mental gymnastics trying to convince people that both parties stand for the same thing and the best option is to vote Labour. Which simply doesn’t wash.
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Here's what the Libdem website says is its actual policy:
Here's the Labour policy, also from its website:
So Corbyn's still holding out a little bit for Unicorns, but their actual position seems pretty close to the LibDem one. They're just more timid about advertising it.
Broadly speaking at UK level I think Labour government would be far, far beter than a Lib Dem one, and this bizarre notion that we should ignore Swinson's voting record because it indicates she's basically an economic Tory is a bad one, but it does seem bizarre that Labour's argument to disillusioned Remainers at this point basically seems to be "you have to vote for us because we're less than shit than everyone else". It's hardly inspiring. And if you're a leftist whose view is that the party is the only alternative to the current neoliberal settlement because the Lib Dems are basically Tories, then current polling would indicate Labour are failing drastically considering the Tories, LD's and Brexit Party all out-poll Labour comfortably.
But yeah, some of the party's rhetoric right now seems to be coming straight from the Scottish Labour 2015 manifesto.
But yeah, some of the party's rhetoric right now seems to be coming straight from the Scottish Labour 2015 manifesto.
Wilfully ignorant or perverting the truth?
From the same Lib Dem website:
Labour according to that linked page and stated quote, would campaign for Remain only against the current Tory deal (and probably any Tory deal). But what's their stance towards Brexit should they win power? Is it not to negotiate their own Brexit before putting it before the people? Yes or No? Is that the same as Lib Dems?
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Ffs lads. Nobody said you should ignore Swinson's voting record. All we're saying is that her voting record is fairly inline with Lib Dems lines. Liberals stand for small government. It's literally the first thing mentioned in what liberalism espouses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Lib Dems don't stand for a large welfare state. Especially not in times when the state is in financial dire straits as it was post-financial crisis. The Lib Dem economic policies are right of centre, closer to Tory ones than Labour. But unlike the Conservative party they are not conservatives. They stand with internationalism vs nationalism, modernism vs traditionalism/anachronism, inclusivity vs exclusivity.
It's not a leftist party. Never was. Now if that doesn't satisfy you based on your principles and preferences, fair enough. It's not for everyone. But the suggestion that Swinson is a Tory in Lib Dem clothing, or that she's being portrayed as something different than what she is, is frankly absurd.
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Correct. All people have to do is look into Corbyns past. He’s a huge euro skeptic. He was never and will not go down the remain path as it goes against his own beliefs
That’s a good post.
I presume the Swinson voting record sniping mainly comes from a misunderstanding of Lib Dem policies.
Although, equally, it is probably a helpful reminder for people who (mistakenly) assume the Lib Dems are a Remain version of the Labour Party and might vote for them on that basis.
I don't think it's as benign as that. I think it's trying to take advantage of the misunderstanding many people have of Lib Dem policies, to paint her as the thing most Labour voters hate and revile (a Tory) in an attempt to stem the flow of voters. That's what they're alluding to with the "who needs the real Tories" memes. Because if she shares some common economic policies with the Tories she must be a female Jacob Rees-Mogg or something. However on the final sentence I'll agree that if you're voting Lib Dems and expecting to get a left government, then you're woefully uninformed.
The irony of it is that in this particular time of history only, a Lib Dem government would probably be better for the working class people than a Labour one. Because Lib Dems would scrap Brexit and reap the economic benefits that political and financial stability bring. While Labour with its euro-sceptic leader and divided (on the subject of Brexit) voters will go for a long extension and new Withdrawal Agreement negotiations before a final referendum. Meaning prolonging uncertainty for years, which is not only hugely damaging to businesses and the economy but also leads to governmental paralysis as evidenced by the last couple of years May's government.
And that (I believe anyway) is what's pulling some centre-left people towards what is essentially a centre-right party. Well, that along with Labour's abandonment of the New Labour/3rd Way centrist ideals which many espoused and a veering towards a more socialist, left-wing ideology.
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Have you not listened to any of Swinson's interviews since she was elected leader? Her party policy is not to magically stop Brexit as you seem to think, it is to have a second referendum with the May/Johnson deal as an option. She also said that if the second referendum was to return a majority for Leave again then she would honour that and implement it. Basically, just as Labour are saying they would do only Labour would attempt to negotiate their own version of a deal first. The difference is the Lib Dems are a smaller party and have less to lose and more to gain by being unequivocal in where they stand on the Brexit issue. So they can talk a good game about how much they want to Remain, but the reality is their policy of securing that differs only to Labour in that they would not even bother to negotiate their own deal first, which to me seems both arrogant and incompetent. Two qualities in which the Lib Dems tend to have a surplus in.
Also, are you aware that the People's Vote movement is currently suffering from internal wrangling over whether they should actually campaign for Remain or whether they should keep their goal narrower and just push for a second referendum? If the People's Vote can't even fecking decide whether its in their benefit to openly push for Remain, then is it no surprise that Labour are hesitant to adopt an unequivocal position?
Better for the working class for how long? I mean... having voted Lib Dem in 2010 myself and got Tory. Could the very same not happen again?
Another 4 years of a Conservative Government propped up by the Liberal Democrats at the price of a second referendum. After all, it's not like they appear to regret the first time they did it.
You still believe this even after People's Vote hero Jo Johnson took his place in his brother's cabinet? They're taking you for a ride.
Lib Dem's have significant work to do on their image then and getting that message across because I can guarantee not one person in my office would accurately map Lib Dem's to that list (rightly or wrongly), whereas I feel everyone is clearer on what Labour and Conservatives stand for.
You’re talking about her interview with Sky I presume? Again, you’re confusing what would be an acceptable Brexit to an MP and leader of a small party in Parliament that has no majority democratic backing and needs to compromise, versus what that party would do were it to gain majority and power on a remain mandate. The people’s vote campaign is to stop any party trying to push their version of Brexit without people’s approval. A final say on the deal, as everyone keeps saying, since both major parties have promised to deliver Brexit whilst the form of Brexit has been unclear. So the Lib Dems back People’s Vote, naturally, and were a Tory/Labour driven deal to get people's approval in parliament they wouldn't try to block it in parliament. That's what Swinson is saying.
However the Lib Dems are not on a manifesto to deliver Brexit unlike Tories and Labour, but to block it. So should they gain power in General Election, that's a democratic mandate for Remain. And there wouldn't need be a 2nd referendum because the point of the referendum is a final say on a Brexit deal. And with Lib Dems in power, there wouldn't be a Brexit deal.
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I mean I just explained that in the post you're quoting
. I explained the difference between the likely stance of a Labour government and a Lib Dem government and the effect of that stance on working people.Getting a Tory government with a minority Lib Dem partner is not the same as getting a Lib Dem government, is it? That's a Tory government. And sure, there's no guarantee that won't happen again, though I'd argue it's far less likely this time round for obvious reasons.
In 2010 the country was in a financial crisis and the Lib Dem economic policy (small state, free markets) was more closely aligned to that of the Tories and less aligned to that of Labour. The former proposed shrinking the state, while the latter advocated for massive borrowing on top of the existing debt and deficit in order to invest in and stimulate the economy. So Lib Dems made more natural economic allies to the Tories in that case.
Now, it's a political crisis where the Tories and Lib Dems have diametrically opposite viewpoints. Lib Dems are internationalists and pro-European whereas the Tories are no-deal, nationalist Brexiteers with WWII nostalgia. There's no common ground between the two parties in this political crisis. And needless to say, Lib Dems got heavily damaged from their last partnership with the Tories so once bitten, twice shy.
But if they do go to bed with the Tories again it will surely be explicitly on the condition that the Tories sign up for a people's vote with Remain on the ticket. Cause if not then this time they really do risk total annihilation of the kind you don't recover from.
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They sure do.
But it's a double problem of:
a) not having the same exposure as the two major parties. And
b) many people giving the nuanced subject of politics only a passing glance and preferring to deal in absolutes because it's simply easier that way.
Labour: progressive socialists, Tories: conservative capitalists. Black and white and anything in between is too confusing to think about. That's how many people view it.
Precisely.