Yes, the only chance Remain had was in June 2016 and then I thought Leave would win. I didn't see how parliament would ever agree any type of deal. Now I doubt any politician has really, deep down, got the guts to stop it. Yes the politicians have made a mockery of the British system and at the end of the day whatever happens they should be held accountable, which they won't, of course.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Yes, the only chance Remain had was in June 2016 and then I thought Leave would win. I didn't see how parliament would ever agree any type of deal. Now I doubt any politician has really, deep down, got the guts to stop it. Yes the politicians have made a mockery of the British system and at the end of the day whatever happens they should be held accountable, which they won't, of course.
This misunderstands British history and - as is the tradition - casts the blame on the public.
It's not 30% and it's the UK public that will be paying.A few thousand more is not going to bother a BMW buyer.
As for fishing what the UK catch they mainly have to sell to the EU.
You've forgotten that the UK have to sell their wares, assuming they'll still have any industry left .
I hate politics in this country.
So you expect the EU to keep carrying those same people who voted for Brexit and the Brexiteers forever? It's not as if the majority of Brits care about us Europeans. It's quite evident from its media, its politicians and its people
Id say 2 months of tough brexit will be more then enough for Boris and its ilk to vanish and more moderate heads to take over. A harsh brexit might see the end of the elitist and xenophobic tory party as well. So it's a win win for everyone
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At this point the strategy is pretty simple ie the famous having a cake and eat it one. Id say the harshest of Brexits will be more then enough for this government to go tits up and for more moderate heads to take over
Sure
It wasn't the Liberals that decided that, it was the Tory MPs who's support was required. Again, reality meet opinion. It seems Corbyn switched his stance since, credit to him, albeit perhaps too late.
And I know this is news to you, but this isn't 2010 we're in 2019 now. And saying "classic" about something that has only happened once, is not making you seem any smarter. I'd encourage your to refrain from it.
I can certainly see your point, but I can't endorse any position that sees innocent people made to suffer, and to be honest if you think there is a politician in the land who's position is one of wanting to help the people and not line their own pockets or create a legacy to boost their ego regardless of party affiliation I think you will be disappointed mate.
As for people not caring about Europeans, I think you'd be surprised, there are millions of us who consider ourselves Europeans and all of you on the mainland our brothers, and have no desire for that to change.
Well something needs to give. A number of solutions have been presented by all party members but no majority has been secured. So we will continue to remain in limbo which means more pressing issues are being pushed down the agenda.
So compromise has been tried via Theresa May - trying to give everybody something. That failed.
Now Boris Johnson has to try something completely different.
I voted in 2016 as I wanted to remain and I returned to the polls again for the EU elections. That option is now no longer a choice because to reverse it would be in itself hugely undemocratic.
All we have now is lots and lots of people - MPs and Public - all demanding different solutions and getting very angry when they don't get what they want. It is like watching my children argue over who has the last chocolate biscuit.
I feel we do need a temporary end to party hostilities to get this unique deal through as too many people are finding it hard to compromise. There are too many extremists on both sides for this to happen organically.
Revolution!!!!!!!!!
But seriously, this is ridiculous. I still genuinely at a loss as to see what Boris end game is. Stakes are too high and could go down as a disaster which would make everything he has done even worse. I work with people in politics/news and even they can't figure it. Boris is all about publicity/media craving, he's not really ideologically driven
But seriously, this is ridiculous. I still genuinely at a loss as to see what Boris end game is. Stakes are too high and could go down as a disaster which would make everything he has done even worse. I work with people in politics/news and even they can't figure it. Boris is all about publicity/media craving, he's not really ideologically driven
I lived in the UK for quite some time and has never met those people. I am not saying that most people were assholes quite contrary. However while being well mannered or even extremely nice at times it was evident that they were British first and foremost. The EU was a way to a means (ie to keep the country rich) rather then a project of mutual peace to believe in
Its frustrating especially for a Maltese whose history saw us constantly fighting for our identity and right to be Europeans whether it was during the punic war, the medieval time or during colonialism. We even challenged and won against the Ottoman empire which was the US of the time, preferring serfdom to the Catholic Church to meritocracy and great tax cuts offered by suleiman. You guys just kick that privilege away
What planet do you live on? If we’re talking bmw that’s including mini which is massive in the U.K. for obvious reasons. A far better indicator is the VW group. But let’s talk mini. Produced in the U.K. with a nightmare no deal Brexit (supply chains) hanging over its head. What will be the damage to the economy in case of a no deal Brexit? How many manufacturers are going to leave these shores as result of no deal Brexit? What about the impact towards companies producing spare parts, plastics and what have you for the automotive industry? But yeah, we’ll to fish our own fish to extinction ourselves so the EU are bound to cave in..
I don't class myself as a stupid person but I don't understand what is going on anymore
Is Olivers bar still about in Malta?
I had the dubious pleasure of listening to the idiot John Redwood today telling us that a no deal Brexit is going to see everyone better off and there will be no recession.
Apparently he has convinced himself that we will all benefit with no trade deals because we will be in charge of setting tariffs that will best suit the UK.
We also don't have to pay the £39bn to the EU and will be able to invest this in the NHS....
Haven't we heard that before.
Him and his fellow brexiteers so obviously have such limited understanding of reality that it is embarrassing.
He is listening to and acting on the advice of his close ultra right wing friends.
You're assuming we'll still be able to afford BMWs. Not certain by any means.
If the pound continues to fall in value, there is no real reason to believe that wages will respond to compensate.
Lucky you! Don't see Redwood so much these days but he is definitely one of the more loopy ones. Redwood left reality years before Brexit.
The most depressing thing is that people still believe all this nonsense and sadly the only way to put an end to it is for reality to finally hit home.
But he is actually (despite current evidence) is an incredibly smart person, extremely calculating. Which is why this all feels odd. His best move, or at least what I would do if I was him, was get May's deal through (say it's to take country out of limbo/fall on sword shit) and then takeover when she goes. If it all goes wrong he can blame her and act like the hero who tried to fight in an unwinnable war. If the deal actually turned out well, he takes credit.
Right now, he has just marched us into enemy territory naked. He'll go down in history a fool rather than his idealistic version of himself
The Atlantic Bridge. That's what the end game is. Boris, Liam Fox, all of these wankers want to make as much money as they can by helping their US counterparts sell their dodgy shit in this country without the EU stopping it. But these dumb twats who voted to Leave don't realise that the only thing stopping their lives from getting much shitter is those bloody politicians in Brussels, and they've happily eaten up the shit that these opportunist Tory wankers have fed them.
Nobody does.
Roughly......no deal, recession, several years (decades?) of misery and soul-searching
UK corporationsTM
Nah I think we rejoin by 2030 but without any rebates and have to join the euro... Long term this brexit fiasco will probably be the best thing to happen for pro Europeans .... Just 10 years or so of short term pain for that long term gain
Of course I could be wrong and it could turn out brilliant... But given mogg and Johnson are at the wheel I'm expecting a metaphoric car crash
I fear that the actual affects won't be known for another decade or so, when debt is skyrocketed and our public services have all been sold off. Unfortunately by that point a big chunk of people will have forgotten how good it used to be and accept their shit lives as being commonplace.
And when you don't like the terms the Japanese offer in your trade deal negotiations, are you going to tax Toyotas off the road as well? What about Fords after Trump has had his dirty way with your negotiators?
Which British manufacturers are going to keep you the all on road after you're done punishing all the actual car producing companies who don't suddenly decide to abandon their existing foreign trade policy to cater to the deranged whims of a small island, isolated of its own volition on the edge of Europe?
The delusions some of you harbour about the perception and capabilities of your nation is mind boggling to me. All your bargaining strength disappears with a no deal brexit. The damage to your reputation and trustworthiness if you walk away from your obligations to the European Union and to the peace process in Northern Ireland leaves you weak beyond belief starting out negotiating from scratch with the nations of the world.
Countries outside Europe have watched Britain negotiate in bad faith from the very beginning of this process. They've seen how Britain has expected European nations to compromise on their goals and values while steadfastly refusing to compromise on its own, when it can even agree one what its own are.
I tend to find people are stubborn... They tend to gravitate towards news sources and people that reinforce rather than challenge their ideas (not all of course but as a general rule)
I think the demographics are such that in a decade there is a natural big majority who were remain... And if it has been a tough decade economically another decade worth of voters probably blaming brexit as it's such a divisive issue ... There will be at that point in theory millions of EU citizens who live here now have become uk citizens and can vote as well... Just pure demographics I think there is going to be a big push for rejoin (if we actually leave?)
Pound is going up
True enough, but I also fear the further spread of misinformation and fake news from news outlets run by people who want to remain in power and know that the more right wing Tories are the ones who will keep them protected.
So the UK is now happy to crash out of the EU because the WA was so bad. So it can then negotiate the exact terms within the WA again to get a trade deal and the EU still maintains that all WA terms must be met for a trade agreement to progress.
Folks, as a member of the Colonies, I think it's my duty to ask.....Are you ok? Do you need some help?
Folks, as a member of the Colonies, I think it's my duty to ask.....Are you ok? Do you need some help?
A very interesting comment from someone who obviously has a clear perception of the dire state the UK has got itself into.
I am a very proud Englishman.
However, the chaotic, shambolic and frankly shameful events surrounding our stupid decision to leave the EU, much based on complete ignorance has left me angry and embarrassed.
We have been lied to and manipulated by our politicians, most of who disgust me intensely.
I love reading articles on both ends of the political spectrum as they keep me rounded.The guardian and the daily mail have provided much food for thought with some excellent journalism on both sides. However Brexit in my opinion has made them both look foolish and in my eyes tarnished both with their aggressive rhetoric and I know best arrogance. The point is not one person has a crystal ball and having never been in this position before we do not know the consequences.
Neither has the capacity to see the other side and believe hurling insults is the best way to do so. The guardian attack the right for being uneducated but do not consider for one moment that getting into university was very much for the brightest of each year in years gone by. My mother - a war baby - never went but she belongs to the elite group of mensa. The daily mail attack the left for being too soft or a 'snowflake' but I know many tough competitors of that persuasion of which I am one.
There are plenty of us sitting in the middle watching these 2 sides go to war and thinking for goodness sake stop and listen to yourself.
The brexit process has given some remainers an opportunity to try and halt the process but it will happen because the result of the 2016 referendum happened. I would prefer us to remain but I am not going to stamp my feet, tell the other side that they don't know what they voted for and go on marches and do what was audible on the tv and hear the sounds 'stop brexit'. The idea is abhorrent.
MPS can not get a majority agreement on any exit plan and the stalemate will continue to damage us. We have other issues to tackle. So there is now a cabinet in place who are in accordance with the referendum result and they will take us out. Whether we like it or not that is democracy at work.
Neither has the capacity to see the other side and believe hurling insults is the best way to do so. The guardian attack the right for being uneducated but do not consider for one moment that getting into university was very much for the brightest of each year in years gone by. My mother - a war baby - never went but she belongs to the elite group of mensa. The daily mail attack the left for being too soft or a 'snowflake' but I know many tough competitors of that persuasion of which I am one.
There are plenty of us sitting in the middle watching these 2 sides go to war and thinking for goodness sake stop and listen to yourself.
The brexit process has given some remainers an opportunity to try and halt the process but it will happen because the result of the 2016 referendum happened. I would prefer us to remain but I am not going to stamp my feet, tell the other side that they don't know what they voted for and go on marches and do what was audible on the tv and hear the sounds 'stop brexit'. The idea is abhorrent.
MPS can not get a majority agreement on any exit plan and the stalemate will continue to damage us. We have other issues to tackle. So there is now a cabinet in place who are in accordance with the referendum result and they will take us out. Whether we like it or not that is democracy at work.
@K13 So it’s democracy to pull the shutters down for a month? Wonder what the speaker of the house and many tories think of that decision?
Why is it abhorrent to protest and fight for what you believe in? Particularly if you believe that your quality of life will be much worse?
Remember that the 2016 result was not a massive majority, it was tiny.
Stop rolling over! That’s what’s wrong with the uk, people are constantly rolling over to be fcujed over by others!
Brexit is the biggest con job in uk history!
Why is it abhorrent to protest and fight for what you believe in? Particularly if you believe that your quality of life will be much worse?
Remember that the 2016 result was not a massive majority, it was tiny.
Stop rolling over! That’s what’s wrong with the uk, people are constantly rolling over to be fcujed over by others!
Brexit is the biggest con job in uk history!
You're assuming the truth must lie somewhere in the middle, so either extreme is necessarily deluded. What if that isn't true, and leaving is indeed a horrible idea that will cripple the country for generations to come?
That is not how democracy works. The current cabinet are in accordance with an absolutist version of the referendum result which no-one campaigning for that result promoted or suggested was even possible. Daniel Hannan, one of the heads of the leave campign even said "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market". Yet apparently the victory by his campaign now provides a mandate for us to not only leave the single market, but to crash out of the EU with absolutely nothing in place to protect our trade?
I know it's been done to death, but it was assumed (by virtually everyone, I reckon) that we would have a negotiated deal by the time we left the EU. It's unbelievable that we've ended up in this situation so late in the day.
It's almost as if reducing a really complicated issue to a single binary "yes or no" question was a bad idea in the first place.
No one knows as it has never been done before. What if equally it turns out to be the best thing we have ever done. Plenty believe it will be just as plenty believe it is a horrible idea.
How does democracy work. I studied our political history so maybe I have forgotten some important information.
When we vote in a GE there are opposition parties so that both sides can be well represented.
How can you do that with Brexit when there are leavers and remainers in both main parties? That approach has been tried by Teresa May and no majority. The floor was open to other plans - no majority. How do you move forward, day after day with this uncertainty knowing you can not manage every persons individual expectations. There is Nigel Farage on the horizon as well and lets not kid ourselves that his Brexit party could really cause chaos given how they performed in the EU elections.
I think many of the silent majority just want an end to it.
It would be abhorent to me because even though I want to passionately remain I have respect for the majority vote. If it is not abhorent to you it is your right to do it.
See there you go again making huge assumptions about people. Telling me to stop rolling over. You don't even know me.
Plenty of MPS down the years have been elected based on a few votes to get a majority as that is how voting works.
I beg to differ I think 48:52 is quite significant and being part of the 48 I respect the 52.
The thing is, @K13, that going out with no deal is by no means an end to anything. It's the start of a new negotiation process where the UK has to negotiate a trade deal with... the EU (and every single other country and trade bloc you want to trade with). All trade will happen on WTO terms until trade deals have been put in place (the EU's recent deal with Japan took about ~6 years to get through). WTO terms are about as bad as it gets so you'll surely want new deals in place (which will take years). The problem with having to negotiate new deals is that is that you're not part of a large trade bloc any longer and will have to negotiate from a position of desperation and with very little leverage compared to a few years ago. This is also why a lot of people are fairly confident in saying that the UK have fecked themselves over. There's no way the UK will get better trade deals from a position of weakness. Add to that that the UK can't agree with themselves what they want anyway.
So yeah, the work doesn't end at all with no deal, it'll be much more difficult getting favourable terms and the people in charge are either mostly interested in power and their own wealth, utterly incompetent or both.
So yeah, the work doesn't end at all with no deal, it'll be much more difficult getting favourable terms and the people in charge are either mostly interested in power and their own wealth, utterly incompetent or both.
It has nothing to do with belief. People can believe that Brexit will grant them three wishes if they please, it doesn't make it factual. No deal Brexit involves losing all our current trading agreements and creating a hostile environment with the giant trading bloc (and our largest trading partners) next door that currently accounts for 46% of our exports and 54% of our imports, with no easy substitutes available. No deal Brexit provides nothing, it merely removes what we currently have.
From that point everything is reliant on our ability to negotiate trade scenarios better than we currently have now. We would be doing this from a position of a) Being a much smaller negotiating entity than we were as an EU state, b) Being in an economically desperate position where our need for trade is clearly time sensitive, and c) Having little or no goodwill from our current largest trade partners, and little from elsewhere either.
If someone has a scenario where we come out economically stronger, I'd love to hear it. What I want to hear though is actual details, not just 'we can trade with anyone we want!' sunny uplands bullshit.